“WASHBOURNE”

[Edwardian]

Mikkel, you'll have to be really desperate in your thirst for knowledge, but you can have a look at post 114, page 5, which is where the "broom cupboards" job kicked off, one of the more surreal parts of this thread, so I'm very proud of it. I'm sure we can reach even better flights of er, ??, in 2017, though. Just don't mention "pantiles".

Edit: as I typed that, I happened to be watching the spelling checker. Another mystery solved!

 

Quite.  I got "moderated" during "Pantygate"

 

... which I thought was a place in Wales ...

[Northroader]

Mmmm, Do you hold the copyright on that name? Washbourne could need to cross the border into Wales sometime in the future...

[Edwardian]

Mmmm, Do you hold the copyright on that name? Washbourne could need to cross the border into Wales sometime in the future...

 

Oh do feel free.  After all the Washbourne Orpheans and Castle Aching Strollers have promised to put in appearances in each other's home towns.  This Spring an Aching Hall house party will play host to the operatic diva, Dame Melba Toastrack, so it's all non-stop fun!

[Northroader]

You'll know that this thread tends to wander away from the business of creating my model sometimes, which is just as well, given the pace I do things at. One day this week found me walking along the shingle banks and muddy creeks of Pagham Harbour, near Chichester, and ending up in the "Crab & Lobster" with a pint of Sussex Gold, as you do. The bay is a favourite spot for twitchers, I saw two white Egrets fighting, I suppose over territory, or wimmen. Why can't birds be more like us yooman beans? Looking at Google maps afterwards, I realised I'd actually gone along half a mile of the old route of the Selsey Tram, which set me off on research, and I came across a managers report. This was one of the best reports I've ever seen for being a factual, concise account of the how's and why's of a small struggling independant railway in the 1930s, what was on offer to make a living, what it was doing right or wrong, how it was staffed, (and how much went into their pay packets- ouch!) I got it off the colonel Stephens museum site, where you can get bogged down quite happily. It was written by the traffic manager of the Southern Railway, considering whether it was worth taking over as a branch, and I'm afraid we know the answer to that, but I do recommend it as a good thought provoking read, so here's your homework for tonight:https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/other-railways/selsey-tramway-in-its-last-days

[Edwardian]

You'll know that this thread tends to wander away from the business of creating my model sometimes, which is just as well, given the pace I do things at. One day this week found me walking along the shingle banks and muddy creeks of Pagham Harbour, near Chichester, and ending up in the "Crab & Lobster" with a pint of Sussex Gold, as you do. The bay is a favourite spot for twitchers, I saw two white Egrets fighting, I suppose over territory, or wimmen. Why can't birds be more like us yooman beans? Looking at Google maps afterwards, I realised I'd actually gone along half a mile of the old route of the Selsey Tram, which set me off on research, and I came across a managers report. This was one of the best reports I've ever seen for being a factual, concise account of the how's and why's of a small struggling independant railway in the 1930s, what was on offer to make a living, what it was doing right or wrong, how it was staffed, (and how much went into their pay packets- ouch!) I got it off the colonel Stephens museum site, where you can get bogged down quite happily. It was written by the traffic manager of the Southern Railway, considering whether it was worth taking over as a branch, and I'm afraid we know the answer to that, but I do recommend it as a good thought provoking read, so here's your homework for tonight:https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/other-railways/selsey-tramway-in-its-last-days

IMG_0827.JPG

 

A wonderful document and thank you for linking it.  One highlight for me was the comment on the facilities at Selsey:

 

The general appearance of dilapidation must be removed, suitable direction notices provided and some improvement made to the buildings at Selsey. In this connection it may be remarked that but for the derelict rolling stock standing in the yard a casual visitor would have no idea of the presence of the station.

 

Based on this report, a great might-have-been would be a Southern takeover with a rebuilt Selsey, renewed permanent way and a modern 1930s railcar for passenger traffic with a Southern 0-6-0T of some description for the trip goods.

[BG John]

A wonderful document and thank you for linking it.  One highlight for me was the comment on the facilities at Selsey:

 

The general appearance of dilapidation must be removed, suitable direction notices provided and some improvement made to the buildings at Selsey. In this connection it may be remarked that but for the derelict rolling stock standing in the yard a casual visitor would have no idea of the presence of the station.

 

Based on this report, a great might-have-been would be a Southern takeover with a rebuilt Selsey, renewed permanent way and a modern 1930s railcar for passenger traffic with a Southern 0-6-0T of some description for the trip goods.

I think most people have the image of Colonel Stephens railways having always been dilapidated, as if they were built that way. But that's a post WW1 image, when they were starting to struggle financially. The appeal of modelling the K&ESR in 1905, which I'll be starting soon, is that it was a pretty neat and presentable line, built and operated at relatively low cost, to serve a market that wouldn't have been viable for a mainline company. But that was also its downfall, as it, and similar lines, became early victims of hard times and competition.

[Northroader]

Yes, the Colonel Stephens lines did start out looking quite well turned out, the colonel was a military man after all. It amuses me that the Selsey line was built with no basis as a legal Railway at all, how would we get on without solicitors? Very dangerous idea there! They were very simply and cheaply built, but once finished they had to survive on minimal funding. After WW1, labour costs and road competition became insurmountable, as the report shows. I liked it as a sort of "be a Railway manager for a day" excercise. What could you do?

You'll be doing the KESR with a nice blue Dapol Terrier, I hope?

[Edwardian]

I think most people have the image of Colonel Stephens railways having always been dilapidated, as if they were built that way. But that's a post WW1 image, when they were starting to struggle financially. The appeal of modelling the K&ESR in 1905, which I'll be starting soon, is that it was a pretty neat and presentable line, built and operated at relatively low cost, to serve a market that wouldn't have been viable for a mainline company. But that was also its downfall, as it, and similar lines, became early victims of hard times and competition.

 

I agree.  Traditionally much of the lure of Light Railways for modellers has been that desperate dilapidation of their latter years.

 

I, on the other hand, have always been unashamedly a heyday modeller, hence my fictitious small independents are bustling and prosperous. My recurrent wish to model the W&UT is not the '50s, that most people choose, or even Grouping, but pre-Great War when there was still a bustling passenger service.  If I were to model a Light Railway prototype, something like the K&ESR in 1905 would be just what I would choose.

 

 

 

Yes, the Colonel Stephens lines did start out looking quite well turned out, the colonel was a military man after all. It amuses me that the Selsey line was built with no basis as a legal Railway at all, how would we get on without solicitors? Very dangerous idea there! They were very simply and cheaply built, but once finished they had to survive on minimal funding. After WW1, labour costs and road competition became insurmountable, as the report shows. I liked it as a sort of "be a Railway manager for a day" excercise. What could you do?

You'll be doing the KESR with a nice blue Dapol Terrier, I hope?

 

I forgot to mention this earlier as I am suffering a certain amount of mental confusion today, but I was naturally struck by the fact that the Selsey was, in fact, an illegal operation, with no legal basis for building and operating a railway!

 

Though many may dream of a world without lawyers, I see this, rather, as a glimpse of life without bureaucrats!

 

Of the first series of disposals of Terriers by the Brighton (c.1899-1902), I recall that several, painted red, went to the Isle of Wight and a pair, painted blue, to the K&ESR.  Some, I think, went to contractors. There then followed 11 that the Brighton failed to sell, which it therefore scrapped.  It had crossed my mind that, in my 'counter-factual scenario', the West Norfolk might have bought one of these.  Good idea, do you think?

Edited January 9, 2017 by Edwardian

[BlueLightning]

Of the first series of disposals of Terriers by the Brighton (c.1899-1902), I recall that several, painted red, went to the Isle of Wight and a pair, painted blue, to the K&ESR.  Some, I think, went to contractors. There then followed 11 that the Brighton failed to sell, which it therefore scrapped.  It had crossed my mind that, in my 'counter-factual scenario', the West Norfolk might have bought one of these.  Good idea, do you think?

 

Any idea that keeps a Terrier alive is a good idea!

 

I however should declare my bias as they are my favourite engine, what with you being a solicitor and all

 

Gary

[BG John]

You'll be doing the KESR with a nice blue Dapol Terrier, I hope?

Nope. I've got two nice blue Terriers, one of which needs a bit of surgery to turn into "Rolvenden" .

[NeilHB]

Any idea that keeps a Terrier alive is a good idea!

 

I however should declare my bias as they are my favourite engine, what with you being a solicitor and all

 

Gary

Same here! The more Terriers the better in my opinion...I have one so far to run on Elsbridge (Wharf) - assuming that it was purchased by Wellsworth & Suddery when they extended to Crosby. I feel that a second example may need to be purchased which can run on my generic light railway...

[Nearholmer]

OK, they are my favourite SG steam loco too, and I'm ever-eager to resurrect ones that were scrapped, but, in the context of the WNR, I really have my doubts.

 

Why?

 

Because they are almost a cliche; they are what everyone thinks of when they think Light Railway.

 

And, the WNR promises to be a bit different, to NOT have a Manning Wardle saddle tank, an Ilfracombe Goods, a Ford Railcar, or ....... a Terrier. It promises to introduce us to the longer-forgotten breeds of engine.

 

Kevin

 

PS: Which thread is this? I'm getting confused again.

[Donw]

OK, they are my favourite SG steam loco too, and I'm ever-eager to resurrect ones that were scrapped, but, in the context of the WNR, I really have my doubts.

 

Why?

 

Because they are almost a cliche; they are what everyone thinks of when they think Light Railway.

 

And, the WNR promises to be a bit different, to NOT have a Manning Wardle saddle tank, an Ilfracombe Goods, a Ford Railcar, or ....... a Terrier. It promises to introduce us to the longer-forgotten breeds of engine.

 

Kevin

 

PS: Which thread is this? I'm getting confused again.

 

This is your thread and you are commenting about Edwardians choice of loco for his layout. It seems to be coming compulsory to follow both threads as things jump from one to t'other. Soon we will need to add footnotes 'to be read in conjunction with the following threads.....'. I am rather in agreement with you about the WNR layouts where the stock differs from the usual easy options are like a breath of fresh air and should be encouraged.

Don

[Edwardian]

This is your thread and you are commenting about Edwardians choice of loco for his layout. It seems to be coming compulsory to follow both threads as things jump from one to t'other. Soon we will need to add footnotes 'to be read in conjunction with the following threads.....'. I am rather in agreement with you about the WNR layouts where the stock differs from the usual easy options are like a breath of fresh air and should be encouraged.

Don

 

Confusion is down to me this time, as I rudely mentioned the possibility of the WNR acquiring a Terrier on this topic, not on CA.  Apologies to our host and to my fellow contributors.

 

But you and Kevin do have a point.

 

I had already had the thought "but why might the WNR need a further small 0-6-T in the early 1900s?"

 

I suppose that if I want to use typical Light Railway equipment, I should have planned a Light Railway, which, as I persist in saying, the WNR is not. 

 

While topic overlap suggests the existence of a parallel universe, in which both Washbourne and Castle Aching, and a good many other cherished places, might be found, it has confused me in the past at times. 

 

Back to Washbourne, now, I think!

[Northroader]

The Terrier has become a "cliche" because the LBSC were offloading them as they upgraded suburban lines and services in the 90s just as every Tom Dick and Colonel was building light railways, and buying cheap second hand, rather than new Manning Wardles. It didn't happen with, say, the GER "Buckjumpers" as you'd expect. The survivors came to be representing part of a much loved scene for nostalgia for railfans. From a modellers point of view, you've got a simple, good looking small engine available RTR in OO and now O. So you could put a lot of attractive prototypes on the WNR, but all for more work than something off the shelf. I'm scratch building pretty well everything, and I'm coming to realise that my modelling time is far more valuable than money outlay, maybe because of my sell by date. So, I'm all for Terriers in general and one on the West Norfolk.

Are we confused? Nah, we seem to have settled on the British Isles, 1880 -1930s, secondary/branch/city lines, maybe something run by the big boys, maybe an independant, that's pretty straightforward, surely? Kevin and James, in particular, have settled in comfortably, and livening up the thread, so no apologies needed at all. Keep on jumping! (Threads, of course)

As our learned and snuffily counsel (get well, soon, bye the bye) says, "Back to Washbourne". In the Christmas week the wiring crew were busy putting feeds back to a switchboard, so I could power up and get something running and test it all. The fun has been the double slip, which is at the centre of all the operating moves. I want to propel wagon sets through this, and with a lot of tweaking I'm doing this, but it's still not 100% certain in the area of the obtuse crossings in the middle. At present I've lifted the point out and it's on what I jokingly call the workbench. I'm looking at clearances and alignments here.

I'm also aware that I've got a deadline to meet on my other Englefield line, so Washbourne ain't getting the priority it should have. (Then theres threads 3 and 4 straining at the leash)

Edited January 10, 2017 by Northroader

[Northroader]

While I'm banging on about Colonel Stephens lines, I'd like to offer another example of a layout which struck me as a really inspirational job. In this case it's an O gauge line by Mr. Ivan Maxted called "Darenth", which I saw at a show in Southampton in 1993. It's based on the idea that a projected lIne along the Darent valley between Dartford and Sevenoaks in North Kent had actually been built as a Colonel Stephens line, and had been nationalised by BR just like the KESR, giving quite a good selection of SR steamers to choose from, as well as a small BR diesel. Very neat, compact, good finish, buildings typical examples of the Stephens lines. There were accounts published in MRJ #55, 1991, and GOG "Small layouts". I've drawn it as I saw it at the show. There was also an extension which could be added at the RH end with 3way point and engine and carriage shed. One thing I particularly liked was the way the line ended on a level crossing, which gave a really neat look, I thought.

From the sublime to the gorblimey, on my own line I've put the double slip back into position, and trying it out. The wagons like it, but the small Brighton tanks are Prima Donna-ish, the pony trucks being troublesome, so I'm looking at restricting the side swing, springing (at present they're just deadweight) and pickups while I'm at it. If you look closely you'll see that there's now a shim along the one side of the check rail of the centre crossing at the top, which seems to have done the trick.

Just in case anyone should be thinking of placing a double slip centrally, the geometry is worth mentioning. I've built this one with 15degree crossing, and it still has 72" curvature. The Peco point is similar curvature, but made for 8degree crossing. It's roughly the same length as mine, but by the time the lines have diverged to a clearance you can add quite a bit on the length. This is particularly critical at the right side where the lines pass in front and behind the scenic back.

[Donw]

Ivan built the first Darenth in EM before changing to 0 gauge. I think he has moved abroad Canada? I think he has added a main line behind to simulate the connection to the main BR network (really just to allow him to run some electric's. It was nicely modelled.

I note your comments about the DS I assume you are using 32mm gauge and 1.75mm flangeways. For slaters wheels  with a 29.5 BtoB the flangeways are on the wide side and small wheels on bogies and pony trucks can have problems. Your bit of shim narrowing the flangeway may have compensated for this. Using a bigger angle at the crossing will shorten the distance between the two crossings (and hence the length of the DS) this can reduce the blades lengths which are short anyway on a DS. I note you have not made the blades a single piece and have short jointed blades which can cope much better with the sort of travel needed for our wider flangeways. A good bit of work.

 

Don 

[Nearholmer]

It's interesting to look at your DS, and compare it with a real one, because the thing that leaps out, and this is no criticism of your excellent workmanship, is that the flangeways in Finescale 0 are actually rather large.

 

If wide flangeways are combined with narrow wheel treads, trouble will usually follow, because the wheel tends to drop into the "frog gap".

 

You might find that, as well as closing the checkrail flangeway (real ones taper down over their entire length in a DS, it is worth considering wheels with a wider tread.

 

So, how come a bloke who runs those awful coarse-scale things is preaching on about this stuff, then? Well, coarse-scale has wide flangeways (eight of an inch in the original Greenly standard!), but uses wheels with very wide treads ...... bizarrely, it can be easier to get smooth running with the coarser standard ...... LGB is as coarse as can be, yet runs very smoothly, because the wheel and pointwork measurements are totally compatible ....... whereas I believe it is true to say that in GOG Fine, they are not.

 

Kevin (this may provoke an argument - it isn't intended to!)

[Northroader]

It might be misleading to write off finescale flangeway clearances on the strength of my poor workmanship. TBH, the inner crossing checkrails really should be taken up, reprofiled, regauged, and replaced, but I CBA. The shim has done the trick, but it highlights what is lacking in the construction. As the wagons will propel through OK, I'm turning my attention to the pony trucks, as other locos perform well.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

The Brighton prima-donnas should be ashamed of themselves, that is one good-looking double slip!

 

(practising pronounciation of "gorblimey" over breakfast, wife finally giving up on me I think).

Edited January 15, 2017 by Mikkel

[Edwardian]

The Brighton prima-donnas should be ashamed of themselves, that is one good-looking double slip!

 

(practising pronounciation of "gorblimey" over breakfast, wife finally giving up on me I think).

 

Don't feel too disheartened.

 

Not everyone can get the hang of it the way Dick van Dyke did.

[BG John]

So, how come a bloke who runs those awful coarse-scale things is preaching on about this stuff, then? Well, coarse-scale has wide flangeways (eight of an inch in the original Greenly standard!), but uses wheels with very wide treads ...... bizarrely, it can be easier to get smooth running with the coarser standard ...... LGB is as coarse as can be, yet runs very smoothly, because the wheel and pointwork measurements are totally compatible ....... whereas I believe it is true to say that in GOG Fine, they are not.

 

Kevin (this may provoke an argument - it isn't intended to!)

I'm hoping to use O-MF, that reduces the gauge slightly to allow finer flangeways, and should give better running as well as appearance. Whether I do depends on what work needs doing to the copper clad points I acquired at my favourite price!

[Donw]

It might be misleading to write off finescale flangeway clearances on the strength of my poor workmanship. TBH, the inner crossing checkrails really should be taken up, reprofiled, regauged, and replaced, but I CBA. The shim has done the trick, but it highlights what is lacking in the construction. As the wagons will propel through OK, I'm turning my attention to the pony trucks, as other locos perform well.

 

I certainly wasn't commenting on the workmanship I suggested it was due to the mismatch between the OF standards and the finer wheels that are used today. The bit of shim would compensate for the mismatch.

 

Don

[Donw]

The Brighton prima-donnas should be ashamed of themselves, that is one good-looking double slip!

 

(practising pronounciation of "gorblimey" over breakfast, wife finally giving up on me I think).

 

My father used to say that a true cockney would reveal themself if having to say the phrase 'forty thousand feathers on a thrushes throat'

Don

[Donw]

I'm hoping to use O-MF, that reduces the gauge slightly to allow finer flangeways, and should give better running as well as appearance. Whether I do depends on what work needs doing to the copper clad points I acquired at my favourite price!

The way I would approach it would be to move the crossing in towards the wingrails using a couple of slip gauges to get the flangeways there correct. Then move the stock rails in using the gauge which should sort it out. Would it be worth it? Maybe I would just try moving the crossing forward to close the wingrail gaps and see how much improvement that made.

Don