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Here, by the way, are some pictures from Weddell.

 

This is the MC&WCo composite.  It's not the subject of the 7mm models, which only deal with the block-set coaches and then only the LSWR-built ones with the revised window/panelling corners.  It is an Isle of Wight example.  It has gained a continuous upper foot-board, and a difference grab rail on the coach end, but retains its oil lighting.

 

1303585581_20210524_152030-Copy.jpg.47d4117a6ddc5b7a2846328e03063401.jpg

 

Here is a block-set coach, also one of the MC&WCo coaches, in service on the LSWR.  We can see, again, the continuous upper foot-boards.  It's also gained gas lighting and a torpedo vent over the end smoking compartment. 

 

A further difference from the drawings of the as-built condition is that the coach now has the LSWR pattern combined hinge-door stop fittings, in a slightly different place from the original hinges. 

 

1934294985_LSWR4-WheelCoaches(7)-Copy-Copy.JPG.10e6b2a77af179d0cfa323f333a01529.JPG

 

 

 

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Thanks for the two pictures, James, I’ll probably do the continuous top footboard, but stick with oil lamps, as more of a remote country thing.* The footboards that come with the kit bear a close resemblance to coffee stirrers, and may get changed for something slightly thinner. I owe the floor an apology, too, on the subject of materials, as I was looking at it this morning, and can see a grain, so it’s actually thin plywood rather than  mdf, and I do like plywood in model building as being good  for not warping. There are variations in the wheels on these coaches, the brake van had spoked wheels rather than the Mansells the rest of the set was fitted with, I suspect because the tyres would get too warm when the guard applied the screw brake.

 

* Mind, here’s a thought for a minimum space line:

A set of these coaches close coupled ending a trip from Waterloo,

A set of old coal wagons in a siding.(something for Stephen)

A brick built Sir William Tite building in the dead end corner.

the River Thames in the foreground, with “Three Men and a dog in a boat”.

Windsor Castle looming in the back scene.

 

740367C0-4C3D-4651-8B8F-77D24D2A195A.jpeg.b08b17ee1fd861edcd129ee54a7e896d.jpeg

 

Edit, more thoughts, little Nellie goes fishing, another lift from Weddell:

4FD1CA2A-C95A-480E-93F3-9DCA61E23012.jpeg.468e762262b17d36a62ed1dfec332fc6.jpeg

 

you'd need a Beattie well tank, in chocolate perchance, and not totally suitable, but Dapol are bringing out a B4 soon for shuffling wagons around. I could do it with Washbourne, apart from the Thames bit, more lack of foresight.

 

edit2 p.p.s. Did you spot the old ”half moon” signal?

 

 

Edited by Northroader
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15 minutes ago, Northroader said:

There are variations in the wheels on these coaches, the brake van had spoked wheels rather than the Mansells the rest of the set was fitted with, I suspect because the tyres would get too warm when the guard applied the screw brake.

 

 

 

 

Funnily enough, I was eying hungrily a picture of a LT&SR Dia.19 Brake Third of 1879.  It, too, had spoked wheels in distinction from the non-brake coaches. 

 

Anyway, I dug out Weddell vol.1 and checked that the MC&WCo block sets are given as 1872-3 (the stand alone composite is 1871), and the LSWR-built ones, like yours, with the revised corners, were produced from early 1873 at Nine Elms.

 

Weddell's drawing of the M&CWCo Brake Third is probably good as representing the brakes on the early LSWR examples, but I note with interest that the sets the LSWR built in 1875 featured Clark's chain brakes on the brake third. 

 

The stand alone composite featuring the LSWR revised panel style dates from 1876.

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On 22/09/2021 at 12:14, Northroader said:

A set of old coal wagons in a siding.(something for Stephen)

 

740367C0-4C3D-4651-8B8F-77D24D2A195A.jpeg.b08b17ee1fd861edcd129ee54a7e896d.jpeg

 

No better resolution I suppose? Any idea of date?

 

These will have come from the north via Willesden or Cricklewood, I suspect. Note that low sides are no bar to a good load if you've got large enough lumps of coal to build a wall!

 

Windsor Castle is alleged to have been a customer of Morris & Shaw's Birch Coppice Colliery, on the Midland's Kingsbury Branch serving that part of the Warwickshire coalfield, hence my particular interest. The earliest wagons of theirs I know of are from 1908.

 

 

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I thought you’d enjoy that picture, Stephen, if it was any better defined I would have stuck it on your thread, but the pity of it is you can’t make out the lettering, but I would agree with you they’re down from the North by way of Brentford.  It must be quite ancient because of the signal. Here’s a link to the site I got it off, and there’s another similar but later(?) picture there.

http://www.thamesweb.co.uk/windsor/windsorhistory/railways/railway.html

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8 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I thought you’d enjoy that picture, Stephen, if it was any better defined I would have stuck it on your thread, but the pity of it is you can’t make out the lettering, but I would agree with you they’re down from the North by way of Brentford.  It must be quite ancient because of the signal. Here’s a link to the site I got it off, and there’s another similar but later(?) picture there.

http://www.thamesweb.co.uk/windsor/windsorhistory/railways/railway.html

 

I have emailed them to see if they have higher resolution scans of these photos. Of course the image quality may be limited by the original but we're not talking 35 mm film here.

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11 hours ago, Northroader said:

Good luck with that, there’d be some nice models to do if you can get a fruitful reply. (Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness)

 

I've had a very positive response but the gentleman who set up that page has moved house since, so finding the originals may take him a while!

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  • 2 weeks later...

For the last nineteen months I been keeping my head below the daisies, just the occasional foray to the hospital or the carehome involving the family needs, but on Saturday I got my flu jab, and as I’ve had the booster Covid jab I felt I was as fireproof as I’d ever be, so ventured out for the day, a process my wife termed “normalisation”.

For some years I’ve noticed the Uckfield M.R. Exhibition advertises a good selection of quality model layouts, and this year two in particular caught my eye, the draw being irresistible, so I was on the 8:59 out of Swindon this morning. (First train East out of Swindon not til 8:59 on a Sunday!!) Anyhow, all the connections worked a treat across London and out of London Bridge to Oxted. Change and refresh my inner LBSC id, one of the nicest lines still surviving, lovely  country through the High Weald, most of the station buildings still intact, most enjoyable run. Out at Uckfield and up the High Street like a rat up a drainpipe, and into the Hall. Gary (Blue Lightning of this parish) was fixing the contactless scanner, and I paid cash. (I was gobsmacked in London how you can travel round now with a contactless bankcard, I have been leading a sheltered life)

Well worth the trip, saw the two layouts I really, really wanted to see, and had a nice chat with their creators, but I think it’s good to be reminded that besides my particular interests, there’s some very excellent craftsman turning out  quality layouts for other scales and settings, and I could draw inspiration from these as well. Very nice selection of layouts for the show, and the backing up traders, so very well done to the Uckfield club. Some small purchases made, nothing to brag about, but a new chassis to butcher for the Whimsy line..

The two layouts that brought me there, well, both 0 scale (of course) both pregroup (of course), both BLTs, (of course) one being voted best in show by the other exhibitors,, of the GWR in a Wessex setting, and the other of the Irish West Coast, so here’s links to both, as to how things should be done.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/1131-wenlocks-blog/

 

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/7592-belmullet/?tab=comments#comment-120997

 

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Dave  (Wenlock)'s  layout is indeed a superb layout I was lucky to see it at a SWAG meet  and was able to have a go on the controls and we did get to run my Steam railmotor on it. Dave is also one of the nicest people you could meet. I hope you had a look at the 2mm layouts  Wadebridge etc.  and Modbury. OK not your choice of scale but some superb modelling.

 

Don  

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Nothing new to show you, but back in March (p 60) I described an interesting trip I did which was well received, so I thought I do a follow up, with railway interest, if not pregroup modelling. The clock has gone on round, on from July 1953 to November 1957. I had left school, and was now studying engineering at Derby Tech. College. A gang of us students had decided that a weekend in Dublin would be the thing, so Friday teatime we were on a d.m.u. bound for Crewe. Across the road into the Crewe Arms for sustenance, and back on to the platform later on to meet the “Irish Mail” rolling in from Euston, with a rebuilt Royal Scot at the head. Off across North Wales with a card school on the go, and into Holyhead in the small hours. We would have boarded either the “Cambria” or the “Hibernia”, both modern cross channel vessels, built before the days of roll on- roll off.

https://www.sealink-holyhead.net/hibernia

It’s a 78 mile crossing, taking 3h15m, and quite a cold blustery night, but I elected to stay outside on the upper deck, collar turned up, on a bench in the lee of the saloon. Every so often some poor soul would burst out of the door into a hot airless saloon, stagger across the deck, and lean over the rail. With daybreak we reached Ireland, the port of Dun Laoghaire, (Dun Leary), formerly known as Kingstown. Disembark on Carlisle Pier which had a berth either side, and a railway station with two platforms.

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once folks had got through the checks, on to the waiting train which was headed by a large boiler J15 0-6-0. It’s only a six mile run into Dublin, and the driver gave the old girl her head for a spirited gallop in to town. This line was the first in Ireland, opened as the Dublin and Kingstown railway in 1834, quite early on for railway evolution, laid as standard gauge, and regauged to 5’3” later on.

Coming into Dublin I saw my first new Irish diesel loco, an “A” class CoCo.  Back in 1953 at Waterford I’d seen a spanking new railcar set, modelled on the prewar GWR A.E.C. railcars, which had initiated modernisation of CIE motive power. Bulleid had been CMEE of the Southern Region up to 1950, then consultant to CIE before becoming their CMEE, and had been the driving force for dieselisation. The first element, the railcars, had been well received and proved popular with the passengers, so then in 1954 a bold investment in diesel locos was made. He had favourable reports of diesel electric generating sets made for the Royal Navy by Metro-Vicks of Manchester, using Crossley diesels, and the bulk of the new fleet used these.

60 x A class 1200hp CoCo Metrovick Crossley

14 x B class   960hp A1A-A1A BRCW Sulzer

 34 x C class. 550hp BoBo Metrovick Crossley

British Rail, watching over the fence with their own modernisation plan, was interested by the use of the Crossley diesels. Crossley were an old well established firm with plenty of experience in large Diesel engines, but not as applied to Railway traction. The engines worked on a two stroke cycle, also used by the American General Motors E.M.D. very successfully since the late 1930s, and all the other BR modernisation diesels worked on a four stroke cycle. In 1955 BR ordered their own Metrovick Crossleys, the D5700 type 2 CoBo locos (later the class 28) Anyway, we’ll return to this subject later, as we’re now pulling into Westland Row.

54377B61-8588-46A0-AD24-D111003A2CC7.jpeg.1dfefd843323613e23abc90046082c8b.jpeg

I think of this station as a likely candidate for  Minories. It was the terminus of the D.& K., eventually the line extended to Dalkey using atmospheric traction for a while, then on to Bray, joining up with the Dublin and Wicklow Railway, which had its own main line out of Dublin Harcourt Street. Money was always a problem, in the fullness of time, it got to Wicklow, and then on to Wexford. The D&W took over the D&K, then in the late 1880s knocked a hole in the dead end wall of Westland Row, and carried on over the Dublin streets and the River Liffey to reach the Great Northern Railway at Amiens Street Station, and also join in with branches off the two major lines west, the GS&WR and the MGWR, going to the docks at North Wall. This allowed a suburban service serving the residential coastal strip of Dublin, and giving passengers and mail off the Holyhead boat direct rail access to the western railways.

1A276684-F0E1-4583-9937-2EF1BC062881.jpeg.cb414c91e8ad0fe45de52ee78da716da.jpeg

In GSR days, economies brought the closure of the MGWR at Broadstone, and their trains started from Westland Row. It was quite a busy station by then, as the bulk of the trains south to Wexford had also been transferred from the rum Harcourt Street station to Westland Row, having better connections. Trains for Sligo and Galway could be made up in the south facing bays, and started by backing out for a through run.

In 1966, the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Rising, the stations were named after the leaders, and Westland Row became Pearse. If you go now, the suburban service is electrified, the bays have been removed, the main line service south originates at Amiens Street, and the MGWR section services go from the other stations. (Oh, and the Holyhead boats now sail direct into the port of Dublin)

In the meantime we have alighted, descended down to the street, found a cafe doing a hearty Irish fry-up breakfast, arranged accommodation for the night, and set off to explore......

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Thanks for the map, Stephen, it does clarify the geography better. Yes, the LNWR had their own station at North Wall, with ferryboats tying up outside, although you wouldn’t find a Webb “Jumbo” heading off to the interior. I think it was mainly GSWR mail trains to Cork, and I should try to work out the phasing of the Holyhead ferries between Dublin North Wall and Dun Laoghaire, maybe silting had some affect on it.

https://www.archiseek.com/2010/irish-rail-freight-offices-north-wall-quay-dublin/

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14 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Thanks for the map, Stephen, it does clarify the geography better. Yes, the LNWR had their own station at North Wall, with ferryboats tying up outside, although you wouldn’t find a Webb “Jumbo” heading off to the interior. I think it was mainly GSWR mail trains to Cork, and I should try to work out the phasing of the Holyhead ferries between Dublin North Wall and Dun Laoghaire, maybe silting had some affect on it.

https://www.archiseek.com/2010/irish-rail-freight-offices-north-wall-quay-dublin/

 

Yes, certainly in the 19th century the transatlantic Royal Mail route was Holyhead - North Wall - Queenstown (Cobh). The mail contract led naturally to an alliance between the LNWR and GS&WR, which to our enthusiast's eyes was most evident through Inchicore being the Irish Crewe, the place where several notable Crewe Premium Apprentices did their "post-doctoral" work.

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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

in the 19th century the transatlantic Royal Mail route was Holyhead - North Wall - Queenstown (Cobh). 

 

Thinking straight for once, the reason North Wall was preferred over Kingstown was the lack of rail connection through Dublin between the DWWR and GS&WR before the building of the CoDJR. The connection between the GS&WR and North Wall was built in 1877 but even without that there would only have been one transfer of the mail from the ferry, across Dublin to Kingsbridge, rather than transfer from ferry to train at Kingstown and then again across Dublin. Speed was of the essence; taking the mail by rail across Ireland gained a day to/from New York over the sea voyage. 

 

The famous run of Ramsbottom's Lady of the Lake No. 229 Watt and McConnell's Bloomer No. 372 in 1862 with dispatches during the Trent affair, Holyhead to Euston in five hours, 130½ miles at an average of 54.3 mph and 133 miles at 57.2 mph respectively, is well-known but I've never seen anything about the overnight run up from Cork by the GS&WR. The transfer from the transatlantic steamer at Queenstown to Cork was by boat. [Ref. O.S. Nock, Speed Records on Britain's Railways (David & Charles, 1971).]

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Well, Saturday morning in Dublin, where to go? Pile into a taxi and out to Inchicore, that’s what. The main CIE workshops are alongside the old GSWR main line to Cork about two miles out from the Kingsbridge terminus. Call at the gatehouse and ask nicely if we could look round. The famous Irish hospitality came into play, a pleasant young man came down from the drawing office and gave us an hour or two. You don’t see many plans of the place, here’s one I did straight after from memory, and the elements of the tour are in a different order for the purposes of the narrative.

097B6BA6-A649-4FA6-BBF0-7D1C84EA6C6F.jpeg.86f38441c0fd732ad1468677b3ee6678.jpeg

youll probably spot all the small black blobs scattered round the yard. These are representing the steam locos withdrawn and waiting scrapping. In 1949 CIE had 491 locos of 83 classes, and I estimated that there were over seventy parked around the yard, all sorts and conditions. There was a big running shed in the yard, but diesels waiting for duty were outside, just a handful of dead steam engines inside. Tucked away with them was the queen of Irish locos, Maeve. This to British eyes looks very like a rebuilt Scot, three of the class produced from 1939, not an auspicious time, Eire stayed neutral during WW2, but suffered dreadfully from fuel shortages. Thankfully it’s now preserved in the Cultra museum.

3DBDF0CF-ACDF-4294-A6DC-34989614C3E9.jpeg.0deda7b5905c12f8acdf1b94dc395c11.jpeg

 

There was some activity going on building a new wash plant. The new diesel fleet was finished silver, with green letters and totem, but the then fashionable aluminium paint was proving difficult to keep clean, and also weathered very badly. After a few years of struggle, the bulk of the fleet was painted in an attractive leaf green, although I gather there were some As in a darker green. Another sign of the move from steam to diesel was a big pile of patterns dumped in the yard. Inchicore had an iron foundry, and the craftsman made wooden patterns were used in making moulds to make castings of things like cylinders, but now the pattern store had been cleared out.

Inside the main workshop block there was a smithy, a modern machine shop and tool room. We were impressed with such items as a machine doing optical measurement of screw threads, for instance. There was a place for flame cutting and welding, doing work for the wagon shop. There were also side bays for diesel engine overhaul, and injector overhaul. (Over in the other main shop there was a test bed with a load bank). About half of the block had lines in with pits and platforms, here there were some railcars under repair, as well as a few A and B classes, then were some new build bays. These had some diesel shunter 0-6-0s under construction, the E class with a Maybach engine and hydraulic transmission.

On from here to another large block, the old main erecting shop, dedicated to diesel overhaul, with A, B and C classes all being worked on. On a flying visit you can’t get down to the nitty gritty, why so many diesels less than two years old having repairs? The hard truth was the Crossley diesels were n.b.g., they suffered from numerous faults, and underwent many modifications without success. On B.R. the Crossley class 28 were a much smaller element of the fleet, andj they were scrapped without compunction, but CIE soldiered on until they were finally rebuilt with American EMD diesels in the sixties. There was just one loco in the shop which wasn’t a diesel, though it looked just like one, with the body up on stands, and it’s bogies out in the middle of the shop, but with wisps of steam coming up from them, Yes, the “Turfburner”!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIÉ_No._CC1

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Bulleid was CMEE of BR Southern until 1950, then after acting as a consultant, he joined the CIE as their CMEE, becoming a driving force for modernisation. He also wanted to try and use Ireland’s only plentiful fuel, what we call peat and they call turf, and this loco was the result. It looked quite a lot like the S.R. “Leaders”, but the link I’ve given shows big differences. It had emerged from Inchicore just three months before our visit, and had done trials on the main line. When we saw it, it was in for more tests and adjustments. There were some trilby hats round it, was Himself there? Couldn’t say, we were carefully steered away from it. It did a few more runs, and when Bulleid retired the following year, he drove it, but then it went back in the works, the CIE board gave out there were to be no more turf burning shenanigans, and it was discreetly scrapped.

So, over to the Carriage and Wagon, plenty of new build going on here. Modern passenger coaches, with a laminated teak body frame, covered by aluminium panels, and ply backing, what the Irish railfans call “Laminates”, there were also long wheelbase four wheeler luggage vans on the go, (railfans “Tin vans”) plus some boiler vans to go with the diesels for steam heating. There hadn’t been such a clean sweep of old stuff as on the loco side, so you could spot the odd museum piece six wheeler receiving attention. On the wagon side more new build with a fleet of four wheel opens, these having bodysides of corrugated pressings in a galvanised metal finish and angle framing. (These became used a lot for transport of sugar beet)

Well, that about covers it, a very memorable tour for a Saturday morning, so thank our guide, and back into town. What shall we do this afternoon?....

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Agree. I'm also impressed that you can remember the details. I wouldn't be able to. 

Well, straight after the tour, I sketched out the plan, and wrote out three pages of notes about the Works, as I could remember them, in a notebook, and I kept them in a loose file with other cuttings and so on.

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So, after lunch on Saturday, we ventured west again, but not so far, just to St. James Gate. “Aha!” you say, “the Guinness Brewery”. Quite so, it was founded in 1759, and is an interesting tangle of buildings. Old grey limestone mixed with glass fronted blocks, surrounding two cobbled courtyards at different levels. There is very good railway interest, as there is a narrow gauge line pulling everything together, and diving down to a Quay on the River Liffey. From here small steam lighters took loads of full barrels down to the docks shipping. There was also a private siding joining into the Dublin - Cork Line. Guinness owned a fleet of locos, both gauges, to move everything round. The narrow gauge locos were an individual design, very compact and accessible. One of these was parked in the yard to drool over, although by then some small diesel locos had appeared. Fortunately, the indefatigable Roger Farnworth has done a very useful write up of the railway.

https://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/04/26/the-guinness-brewery-railways-dublin/

https://rogerfarnworth.com/2020/07/22/the-guinness-brewery-railways-dublin-again/

Well, besides the railway, we ventured inside to view gleaming copper and vast two storey high stainless steel vats, then into a tasting room to some sampling. The one mystery I’ve never got the answer to, is that what they give you is totally delightful, but bears no real relation to what you can get in a pub or in a bottle, even though most of my intake comes from Park Royal rather than Dublin. It’s a conundrum I spent some time working on that evening.

This brings us to Sunday morning, and quiet and peaceful streets. We wandered round, and eventually our footsteps took us to Amiens Street station, now Connolly, the GNR terminus. This was opened in 1846, and is your archetypal city terminus of those days. A departure platform, an arrival platform, some carriage sidings sandwiched between them, all covered by a train shed, and an imposing Italianate office block behind the buffers. Outside the train shed a couple of short bays were tacked on, one by each of the main platforms, for local workings, mainly to Howth. On the east side there was a goods yard, with a loco shed down the line, and on the west side the platforms for the DWWR line from Westland Row were spliced on, one platform joined to the departure road, and an island platform. Sunday morning and nothing was happening, but there was this vision at the arrival platform, a train had arrived from the North, just standing there. I very rarely take pictures of trains, but I felt impelled to, so here’s two I took, very poor quality black and white, and I’ve added a colour print from another source to give a better idea.

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S2 class 4-4-0 no.191 “Croagh Patrick” (they all had mountain names) built by Beyer Peacock, and renewed in 1939. The train coaches were finished in what’s described as mahogany, very like LNER teak finish, but I think it has to be the best looking express train running in the 1950s in the British Isles.

Out in the bay there was a railcar set, these were finished light cream and dark Oxford blue, another attractive look. The GNR was a diesel pioneer, trying out railcars and railbuses in the thirties, and having twenty AEC railcars delivered in 1950, based on the GWR design, and capable of having one or two adapted coaches added in the middle, which suited operations very well, the CIE copying this lead as we have already seen. A further twenty four railcars were added in 1957, most with cabs with corridor ends.

The GNR was an likeable, go ahead public company, but postwar expenses were rising sharply, Road competition was increasing, and by 1950 expenditure was higher than receipts. Another year and all the reserves had been used up, and the shareholders gave permission for the the line to close. The governments for both South and North Ireland felt that the public service should be maintained, and advanced funding for the line to keep going, and to buy out the assets. In 1953 the GNR Board took over control, with both governments having equal representation, so it was a kind of joint nationalisation. There were differences in approach by the two sides, Eire favouring modernisation to try and control costs, the North viewing railways as unprofitable and to be replaced by road services. Some smaller branches and services were withdrawn to economise, but then the North unilaterally announced closure of several cross border lines on their side, forcing the south to follow suit, and in July 1957, the Belfast minister announced that they were withdrawing from the board, and as a consequence the GNR was to be divided between the nationalised administrations of the two countries, the Coras Iompair Éireann, and the Ulster Transport Authority. Just a year after our visit the GNR lost its individual identity, and in time wholesale closures followed, the Dublin Belfast main line and some branches in the south being left.

After looking round there, I would like to report that as keen train fans, we looked at the magnificence of the old GSWR terminus at Kingsbridge (now Heuston) or even the oddball Harcourt Street, still functioning and not closed for another year, but we didn’t. I’m afraid we mooched about, nothing memorable, until after teatime we got to Westland Row and started our return journey with another steam hauled boat train, then on to Holyhead around midnight, and dozing away on services to reach Derby in time for breakfast, and college lectures. 

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