Bishops Road (Paddington) - what do we know?

[Nearholmer]

So, what can we collate about the pre-1933 station, and the traffic/operations?

 

Through trains from where? Goods services? Engine changes?

 

Map, picture of the exterior (top engraving), and a photo of a loco between turns to start the process.

 

Kevin

[Nearholmer]

And, this accident report from 1871 is really interesting/hair-raising!

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_WestbourneBridgeDec1871.pdf

 

And, the signalling diagram from 1919 http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/T3026.htm with Royal Oak to the right.

 

And, I just found another, relevant RMWEb thread "Met Bo Bo locos running through to Paddington".

 

K

Edited January 17, 2016 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

The situation with through passenger trains did change a bit over the years until WWII finally brought them to an end - never to be resumed.

 

The 1901 Service TT I have shows through trains from Uxbridge, Windsor, and Southall - they all terminated at Farringdon Street, but I'm not sure which station - further delving required.  1901 also included the Middle Circle Trains from Addison Road to Aldgate and at least one Richmond - Aldgate service (from a quick look).  I know that the Windsors were still running into the 1920s as talking 30 odd years ago to 'Billy' Wells (who drive the GW 28XX in the 1948 Loco Exchanges) he spoke quite a lot about his time in the 'Met Link' at Old Oak and their Sunday turn to Windsor.  It seems to have been one of those odd things but many Old Oak men tended to talk more about their days in the Met Link rather than anything else and there were some quite hair-raising tales about engines boiling the water in their tanks if the chopper (condenser) was used, so despite strict Instruction to the contrary it often wasn't used.  

 

The freights incidentally seem to have changed a little over the year as they ran from both/either Acton and Old Oak Common at various times and in terms of timetable paths were actually more numerous than the passenger services by the late 1930s

 

If you like I can 'snapshot' various years as I have a  number of GWR Service TTs from broad gauge days to 1947.  Southall was also interesting as it seems to have been a consistent starting point for the GWR service to Victoria which ran via the West London  Line to the joint station (GWR and SE&CR) at Victoria and which offered quite a  good service in 1866 although that timetable lists nothing via Bishops Road (presumably in a separate section?).  The Paddington - Brighton service which operated for, I think, barely a year around 1900/1901 ran from the main station at Paddington via a line known as the Crystal Palace Loop joining the Hammersmith & City at Green Lane Jcn - oddly the final remnant of the Crystal Palace loop even survived the 1967 layout changes albeit only for a  while and as a short siding.

[roythebus]

Which one was Green Lane Junction?

 

As a matter of interest, there's a Facebook group Back Track Fulham with quite good Transport section which is where I remember seeing the pic of the broad gauge train at Hammersmith Met. Lots of pics of the WLL, and Fulham West Kensington MR goods depot, as well as Underground stuff going bak to very early years.

[The Stationmaster]

Which one was Green Lane Junction?

 

As a matter of interest, there's a Facebook group Back Track Fulham with quite good Transport section which is where I remember seeing the pic of the broad gauge train at Hammersmith Met. Lots of pics of the WLL, and Fulham West Kensington MR goods depot, as well as Underground stuff going bak to very early years.

On the RCH diagrams Green Lane Jcn was the end on junction between the Hammersmith & City and the GWR on the Hammersmith side of the subway (diveunder).  the Crystal Pace Loop was the line taht left teh south side of teh GW mainline and joined the subway line at Green Lane Jcn

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hammersmith_and_City_Railway_RJD#/media/File:Earls_Court,_Studland_Road,_Bishops_Road,_Addison_Road,_Hammersmith,_Kensington,_North_Pole,_South_Kensington,_Uxbridge_Road_%26_Westbourne_Park_RJD_39.jpg

Edited January 18, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[Nearholmer]

Stationmaster

 

Very good offer; thank you. But, I don't want to bury you under WTTs forever, so a word (or three dozen) about why I'm so interested:

 

- I occasionally give talks about the whys and wherefores of the Met electrification, and it is always good to illustrate just how congested the "top of the Circle" was c1900. I'm always left in deep admiration of the Met operating department when I look at the figures - up to six circles, six to Hammersmith, and six Bishops Road terminators an hour, plus through trains to the outer Met diverging at Baker Street, plus whatever was going down the GWR main, plus the odd "middle circle". 24 trains an hour, possibly more for "bursts", a goodly proportion of which had to be turned round at one of the various stations in the City. And, flat junctions at Praed Street and Baker Street. And, the main depot squashed into the cutting at Edgware Road. I think they operated very short blocks, with no effective overlaps, and the signalmen must have worked like crazy;

 

- Bishop's Road seems to be "the forgotten station", which is odd considering it was the terminus of the world's first underground railway! Even the LT museum has mis catalogued material on it, getting it all mixed up with Praed Street; and,finally, RMWeb related,

 

- a good friend, and fellow coarse-scale enthusiast, has a growing collection of GWR and Met material in 0 scale, and I'm keen to help find excuses to intermingle these things.

 

So ........ A snapshot c1900, just pre-electrification, would be great, plus one immediately pre-WW1, and another in 1939. Of the three, probably the just pre-WW1 would be the most valued.

 

Two BTWs:

 

- in another thread,there is talk of a through train using the middle road. I don't buy that, and think it was more likely ECS, maybe with a shut-down electric, stabled off-peak; and,

 

- it would be interesting to hear thoughts on how the engine changes were orchestrated. Looks to me from the plan as if steamers lurked in the spur at the Royal Oak end, and electrics lurked in the middle road, but I am a bit confused about how they didn't get in each other's way.

 

Kevin

[roythebus]

In later days, the 4 Met platforms were electrified; the middle 2 were used for terminating DMUs and the outer 2 used for Met trains. Sorry I can't remember the platform numbers these days!

[The Stationmaster]

In later days, the 4 Met platforms were electrified; the middle 2 were used for terminating DMUs and the outer 2 used for Met trains. Sorry I can't remember the platform numbers these days!

It seems it changed over the years Roy plus when the situation you describe was operational several H&C trains every day were booked via the central pair of lines in order to keep the conductor rails shiny/make sure they worked.

 

As far as engine changes are concerned Kevin the Up direction is easy (on the final layout that is!) as the steam engine cut off, ran ahead clear of the points and then setback towards the other end of the station while the electric came out of the siding and setback onto the train.  I suspect that at the other end the electric cut off and ran to the middle siding and the GW steam engine possibly came off the Down E&C Line as there was nowhere else for it to stand.  Alas I haven't got any early sectional Appendix instructions but I'll check the 1901 STT as it might offer some clues.

Edited January 19, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[Brian Kirby]

Ever so slightly off, or away from topic, SW of Praed St. Jct. and towards Paddington Praed St. station (Circle/District), there is a left-hand reverse curve. Tucked into the SE corner of these curves, I seem to remember a single track tunnel mouth or arched doorway, large enough for rolling stock. Does anyone know of it's original use?   

                                                                                                                       Cheers, Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Brian

 

The originally intended alignment of the line was directly under Praed Street, and a short length of that alignment was built, then left "fallow" for about three or four years, before work on the route towards NHG was continued. The final alignment is parallel to Praed Street, but SE of it. The reverse curve joins the two alignments, and I think there is a "stub" at one or both ends of what amounts to a "crossover".

 

The history of planned and actual Met stations at Paddington is quite complicated, hence lots of confusion in many places. Initially, they envisaged a station below Praed Street, a terminus, on the first alignment, with what became the route through Bishops Road station as being for goods only.

 

But the Hammersmith Line got authorised very early in proceedings, so they gave-up on the Praed Street idea for a while, and built Bishops Road instead.

 

When Praed Street station was eventually built, it was "shifted over", with the result being two reverse curves, one on either side of it. The explanation may be that they found the "direct below the street" stations (think Baker Street circle platforms) too disruptive and expensive to build, preferring the "cutting or two walls with an arched roof" easier, cheaper, and better for ventilation. Or, it may have had something to do with the grand falling out between the GWR and Met, because, if built on the original alignment, Praed Street station would have abutted directly on the foundations of the GW Hotel.

 

Does this all make sense?

 

Kevin

Edited January 20, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Kevin, that all makes sense, and yes of course, Paddington Praed St. with it's arched roof, is south of the road. However, it's odd that they built the side walls to follow the reverse curve and built the arched entrance in the corner. It used to look as though track once ran into it, latterly (1970s/80s) it seemed to be used as a pw store? I haven't looked in recent years.   BK

[Nearholmer]

IIRC the stub you are talking about is sort of underneath a building, and it is very curious. On the 1895 map, a signal post is shown right in front of it, but that doesn't mean there wasn't track in it at some stage before or after that. I'd also like to check its position wrt the Bakerloo and Post Office tunnels, because it is just possible it was used as a construction access.

 

When I feel I'm not pestering him, I shall pop in to see my pal who looks after archival material, and see what we can find. My gut feel is that I haven't got to a complete explanation yet.

 

K

[Nearholmer]

Googling around while waiting for a dental appointment ....... Found this, on the Basilica fields website/blog.

 

The two Metro Tanks are at the head of GWR "metropolitan" four-wheelers, and I think that Bishops Road is peeping into view on the left, with the high-level walkway linking it to the mainline station visible.

 

BTW - what is this talk of a four platform version of BR? Did that exist between the pre-1933 version, and the version that I would recognise from the 1970s onwards?

 

K

[Nearholmer]

For completeness, one rather tiny photo, showing a Camelback and a BTH loco at Bishops Road in 1911.

 

I missed the photo on ebay, so only have a really dodgy screen grab.

 

Taken from a very low angle, almost as if by a child holding one of those "look down into the top" cameras.

 

K

Edited September 5, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

A very late addition, the bottom plan here shows the 1933, four-platform, version of the station quite clearly 

[Compound2632]

Where was the carriage & wagon works that I gather existed at Paddington until the new C&W works at Swindon opened in 1874 (?) ?

Edited August 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A very late addition, the bottom plan here shows the 1933, four-platform, version of the station quite clearly 

That illustration is from the GWR Centenary edition of 'The Railway Gazette' and without digging my copy out to check I'm pretty sure that it is the only Paddington stations layout drawings in that edition.

 

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Where was the carriage & wagon works that I gather existed at Paddington until the new C&W works at Swindon opened in 1874 (?) ?

Did they move to West London at some time I wonder?  There was alarge carriage shed at Ladbroke Grove in the 1880s and buildings at West London although these were later labelled on OS maps as 'wagon works' but there had been a gas plant on the site before that according to maps which suggest it might well have been used for coaching stock in fairly early days as it was in much later years.

 

Incidentally according to various listed buildings details the carriage works buildings at Swindon date from 1870 - I'll try to delve out Peck when I get a chance although he concentrates mainly on the loco works area. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

That illustration is from the GWR Centenary edition of 'The Railway Gazette' and without digging my copy out to check I'm pretty sure that it is the only Paddington stations layout drawings in that edition.

 

Did they move to West London at some time I wonder?  There was alarge carriage shed at Ladbroke Grove in the 1880s and buildings at West London although these were later labelled on OS maps as 'wagon works' but there had been a gas plant on the site before that according to maps which suggest it might well have been used for coaching stock in fairly early days as it was in much later years.

 

Incidentally according to various listed buildings details the carriage works buildings at Swindon date from 1870 - I'll try to delve out Peck when I get a chance although he concentrates mainly on the loco works area. 

 

I was going on references in Tony Woods' book on Saltney - which suggests production in full swing by 1874 (I think - I don't have it to hand right now) with consequent cessation of new construction at Saltney and presumably also Worcester and Paddington, unless either had stopped earlier. There is mention of the purchase of new equipment for Saltney, Worcester, and Paddington in the late 1860s - apologies for not having the details to hand.

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was going on references in Tony Woods' book on Saltney - which suggests production in full swing by 1874 (I think - I don't have it to hand right now) with consequent cessation of new construction at Saltney and presumably also Worcester and Paddington, unless either had stopped earlier. There is mention of the purchase of new equipment for Saltney, Worcester, and Paddington in the late 1860s - apologies for not having the details to hand.

As so often MacDermot helps us considerably.  Saltney apparently only undertook  limited building (which ceased there in 1872) and repairs as, to a large extent did Paddington (which built only 3 broad gauge vehicles after 1863; no more were built until Swindon started to build b.g coaches in 1876).    Most broad gauge stock had been bought in from outside builders.   Worcester both built and repaired narrow gauge stock.  The shops at Worcester. with 18 newly built coaches inside them, were burnt to the ground on 12 November 1864 so something had to be done to replace their capacity.    However Worcester shops were rebuilt and continued to build n.g. coaches until 1874 after which all new construction was carried out at Swindon. At the same time the space occupied by the carriage repair shop at Paddington was required for widening works of the Hammersmith and City ll.Line (possibly connected with the creation of Royal  Oak station which opened in 1871 although there were a number of changes in respect of the H&C Line in the late 18460s).  The implication of this, and mention of its construction in 1856, imply that it was on the north side of the main line but no hint as to its location 

 

By the Summer of 1865 the GWR had decided to build a new Carriage & Wagon Works at Oxford and had leased, from the corporation,  22 acres of land adjacent to the station for that purpose.  Of course the University objected although Oxford Corporation agreed to the proposal.  Various other towns were also trying hard to get the works.  After changes on the Board and Potter's resignation the previously 'impossible' alternative of a site at Swindon was brought forward by Gooch - by now a Board member - at a Board meeting  in March 1868;- and at a far lower cost than the Oxford alternative.  Swindon had been declared 'impossible' as a site in 1865 because it had not then been reached by any narrow gauge track but clearly it was not quite so 'impossible' by the time of the 1868 decision to build the works there.  Swindon Carriage works opened early in 1869 and the mixed gauge reached Swindon from Didcot in 1872

[Engineer]

An overdue observation on the January 2016 discussion of the alignment of route in the vicinity of Praed Street junction, with what used to be a space and an arched entrance to the south-east of teh runnin glines.  I believe there are present day LT engineering premises within that site, with street access.  Long ago I saw early site plans for the railway including detail of a short two-road engine shed with shallow pits.

 

Looking at the online Ordnance Survey 25" plan, publication date 1869, an engine shed is shown:  https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313018

This map show the Paddington area generally, so may be relevant to the continuing discussion here on GWR premises.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Blow me!

 

I'd never spotted the existence of that engine shed.

 

What most surprises me about it is that it is on an "overshoot" of the final alignment, whereas I'd expected anything interesting to be in on the earlier, never-used, alignment directly under the street.

 

I wonder if it was a District Railway shed relating to trains terminating at Edgware Road, or whether it was a shed for the contractor's engines. 

 

Thank you.

[roythebus]

Remember there was a carriage shed facility next to Scrubs Lane where the E* depot was built. It was used for servicing DMUs when I started train spotting in the early 1960s. My scoutmaster worked there on the DMUs.

 

Maybe this is the one referred to earlier?

[roythebus]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Blow me!

 

I'd never spotted the existence of that engine shed.

 

What most surprises me about it is that it is on an "overshoot" of the final alignment, whereas I'd expected anything interesting to be in on the earlier, never-used, alignment directly under the street.

 

I wonder if it was a District Railway shed relating to trains terminating at Edgware Road, or whether it was a shed for the contractor's engines. 

 

Thank you.

No, there's no mention of  DR shed there. I've recently read the 1912 book a history of the Metropolitan District Railway, a bit boring in places but very technical when it came to building the line. There was a small loco facility at Edgware Road.

 

[Engineer]

On Bouverie Street shed, I would only have been looking for Metropolitan drawings, and the date was probably too early for a District presence, though that might have happened later in the Century.  I've no information on the shed's operational and engineerng role, or when the shed ceased to be active, but it may have been well-placed for loco layovers and very light maintenance, being close to Edgware Road and to Bishop's Road where changeovers would be taking place.  The Metropolitan's substantial Edgware Road Works was quite close, too, so that must be part of the story.. 

[Nearholmer]

Indeed, my mind was beginning to turn to it being an "overspill" of Edgware Road Met Shed/Works, which must have run out of space very soon after opening, given how cramped it was. Maybe overnight stabling for two or four locos?