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4mm scale Welsh wagon transfers


Poggy1165
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John, just to keep you happy, :sungum:  we have :-

B&M (Minus RH 'W' Irons?), TV (Later livery), Barry Rly, Port Talbot, TVR (Earlier livery), R & S B Rly, Rhymney Rly, Cambrian Rly's and perched on the wall, because it has no underframe yet, a N&B Rly van.  

TiC.. Tudor (The Icon) does not have exclusivity of N&B Rly models :beee:

The N&B's lettering was like the 'Times New Roman' font.  The origin of the body is again an Ian Kirk van, with extra cross bracing, it has been devoid of an underframe for about 30 years now.

 

post-6979-0-18470600-1484653064.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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I seem to remember that many years ago one of the WRRC members produced a data sheet on converting available kits etc to wagons of the B&M, R&SB, Barry  etc. I still have scans of some of the drawings on this laptop, but no attribution, and |I cannot remember whether the data sheet is still available, though |\i probably have a paper copy stashed away somewhere.

Sandy may well remember.

Edit: Data Sheet 2, and currently still available I think, as I haveit as a PDF. The contents page lists far more conversions than I remember. A useful start for those wanting such wagons which I really must reread.

Jonathan

Edited by corneliuslundie
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I did a couple of conversions to the Rhymney, in 3mm scale:

 

post-26119-0-14818000-1484773196.jpg

 

The open was from a GWR O18 wagon; I added slightly different end stanchions, and straight door-bangers in line with the hinge strappings. The van was a GWR iron mink with commode handles added to the ends, and fitted with DC1 brakes; the side stanchions aren't in quite the right place, but near enough I reckon. The Rhymney's rather bold lettering was swiped from 4mm scale Modelmaster transfers.

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I seem to remember that many years ago one of the WRRC members produced a data sheet on converting available kits etc to wagons of the B&M, R&SB, Barry  etc. I still have scans of some of the drawings on this laptop, but no attribution, and |I cannot remember whether the data sheet is still available, though |\i probably have a paper copy stashed away somewhere.

Sandy may well remember.

Edit: Data Sheet 2, and currently still available I think, as I haveit as a PDF. The contents page lists far more conversions than I remember. A useful start for those wanting such wagons which I really must reread.

Jonathan

That data sheet is one of my favourite reads. Regularly taken off the shelf and perused for inspiration.  Sadly, I have never got round to actually doing any of the conversions for real, but it will happen, although why I need a B&M van (other lines are available) on an LBSCR layout only I understand!

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You R & S B Rly van looks like a GWR 1888 box van, not knowing very much about the R & S B Rly is that the case?

First off - referred to in some of the above posts, the kit conversions data sheet.. 

Well it's the sort of thing I could/would have done, but I don't recall it,

and I've not gone through all my files, yet.  

Actually, it's more likely to have been one (of a few) I did for the West Midlands Area Group of the EM Gauge Soc., back in the late 1970's, early 80's.

 

Meanwhile, Furness Wagon, the short answer is 'Yes', and these are old Ian Kirk mouldings from way back,

I get the feeling I've been at this game a long time - first EM layout started in 1959.... 

The oldest piece of rolling stock I still have is a PO wagon from the then new building material - Plasti-kard (or whatever it was called back then) - from about 1965.  I have earlier K's loco kits.

 

For Jonathan, the sheet I have is WRRC Ref. RSW/Arch/2.

BUT that Ref., may well have been altered in the last 30 years.

 

The Vans were built circa 1882 - 84, under lots 261 and 291.

The Archive sheet doesn't have a date of the original transfer from the GWR to the R&SB.

At grouping only 5 were taken back into stock by the GWR, R&SB Nos. 1624-6, 1629 & 1630.

Harold Morgan had details of another 7 ex. GWR Vans.

The list of R&SB Nos., in the Archive are 26, 447-9, 1610, 1613, 1618 and as above.

 

Looking trough the file I see I have an undated GA drawing for a R&SB Van, from the Swansea Wagon Co.,

It's late Victorian I would think, the height of the sides is 5'9" from the floor to the top of the sides.

 

Nothing to do with this but, the R&SB had 120 Iron Minks built by Oldbury's 1888 - 1897, the last ones being condemned in 1950.

 

Membership of the WRRC brings many advantages, the resources are there. 

 

Sandy Croall, WRRC Member No. 004.

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The Kit-bashing for Welsh Wagons Data Sheet (No2 as Sandy says) is available in the Members' section of the WRRC website. I updated it a few years ago and it now runs to 11 pages - and I'd appreciate any corrections or comments.

Cheers

Rod

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Edit: Data Sheet 2, and currently still available I think, as I have it as a PDF. The contents page lists far more conversions than I remember.

A useful start for those wanting such wagons which I really must reread.

The only trouble is a lot/most of the kits mentioned are 'CooperCraft',

and their availability is somewhat limited - see topic >>>>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112011-coopercraft-its-fate-and-thoughts-on-an-alternative/page-27&do=findComment&comment=2603006

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On the Barry Railway page, of the WRRC's data sheet for using kits to make Welsh railway stock,  

it shows the single planker as having the lettering as 'BARRY            COY' or similar, 

this extract from a Cliff Harris photo shows 'By     Co' on a Bolster wagon.

 

post-6979-0-10218300-1487714078.jpg

 

One can't help but wonder there are any trees left in the world at all,

when one looks at all the timber there is being used in the early 20th C photos.

Edited by Penlan
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On 19/01/2017 at 11:25, Penlan said:

The Vans were built circa 1882 - 84, under lots 261 and 291.

The Archive sheet doesn't have a date of the original transfer from the GWR to the R&SB.

At grouping only 5 were taken back into stock by the GWR, R&SB Nos. 1624-6, 1629 & 1630.

Harold Morgan had details of another 7 ex. GWR Vans.

The list of R&SB Nos., in the Archive are 26, 447-9, 1610, 1613, 1618 and as above.

 

Hi Sandy,

 

apologies for resurrecting this after two-and-a-half years, but I'm looking to build a few R&SBR wagons in 4mm scale.

 

Did you ever find a source of suitable transfers? I've recently joined the WRRC and I've a copy of Data Sheet 2, which is largely responsible for sparking my interest, but the R&SBR's use of ex-GWR wagons is interesting. Are you aware of any records of what types of wagons they were? The outside-framed van, obviously, and I'm aware of the 3-plank opens. The R&SBR also used iron vans which I believe were similar or identical to the GWR Iron Mink, although later batches has a 9'-3" wheelbase? I'm also contacting the WRRC Archivist to see if he can point me in the right direction, but any advice would be very welcome!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark

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Dragon Models may have had some R&SB transfers in its range but they do not seem to have been passed to Taff Vale Models when the business changed hands. I know Chris Basten was running down the transfer range.

Tony Miller also had some several decades ago.

But currently I think you will be lucky to find anything. Though if you do I wouldn't mind adding an R&SB wagon to my collection.

Jonathan

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Hi Jonathan,

 

that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to - there certainly don't seem to have been any commercially available transfers for some time! I do wonder if one of the smaller suppliers might be interested in making some, or possibly the WRRC itself as they've used Fox Transfers for their Cambrian range.

 

If I come up with anything, I'll be sure to post it!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

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I have tried the fox/WRRC transfers in 7mm. Not great the Crest part on one set fell apart as I tried to put it on to the wagon side. I'm not a big fan of rub down transfers but they're much better than the water slide ones, especially when applying to a matt surface.

Marc

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14 hours ago, NCB said:

For the R&SB it might be possible to get what you want, at least as regards wagon transfers, by cannibalising those intended for other lines. Just a thought. Nigel

 

4 hours ago, Furness Wagon said:

That's what I did for Rhymney transfers. I just lost of left over southern rly transfers from the HMRS sheets having used all the pregrouping  ones. Ditched the 'S's and keep the 'R's.

Marc 

 

Thanks, chaps, the thought had crossed my mind, as had the possibility of using commercial transfers, by which I mean Letraset and suchlike. A little more digging is needed.....

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

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On 18/01/2017 at 21:09, NCB said:

I did a couple of conversions to the Rhymney, in 3mm scale:

 

post-26119-0-14818000-1484773196.jpg

 

The open was from a GWR O18 wagon; I added slightly different end stanchions, and straight door-bangers in line with the hinge strappings. The van was a GWR iron mink with commode handles added to the ends, and fitted with DC1 brakes; the side stanchions aren't in quite the right place, but near enough I reckon. The Rhymney's rather bold lettering was swiped from 4mm scale Modelmaster transfers.

 

Would you be able to take some more photos of Rhmney Railway 293 at all please? Would be interested in getting one of my O18's converted to a Rhmney example :)

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1 hour ago, Garethp8873 said:

 

Would you be able to take some more photos of Rhmney Railway 293 at all please? Would be interested in getting one of my O18's converted to a Rhmney example :)

 

I'll see what I can do, although there really isn't much to it. I went by the drawings on page 112 of the WRRC's Rhymney Railway Drawings. It's very much a GWR 018 wagon, so if you have one of those it's a good starting point (the book is wrong talking about an O11, there are detailed differences). The O18 end stanchions are tapered, wider at the bottom and thinner at the top. The Rhymney wagon stanchions are parallel all the way up, except the top is chamfered at 45 degrees; according to the drawing they should be about 1.2mm wide in 4mm/ft. The other difference is that the O18 had separate door buffers on the door composed of vertical strapping, and the door bangers on the chassis aligned with these, whereas the Rhymney wagon used the strapping up the edge of the doors as door buffers and had the door bangers aligned with them. The pic on page 113 appears to be a standard O18, not the Rhymney version (going by the door buffers).

 

On page 112 there is a cross-section of a door which I'm sure is wrong. The bottom plank is essentially a standard plank angled outwards, the purpose being to smooth the passage of barrows being used to carry loads. The tapered plank on the drawing wouldn't achieve this.

 

Nigel

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There was some correspondence in Welsh Railways Archive Volume IV about the 35 open goods wagons built for the Rhymney by the GWR in about 1921-2. I don't think it was ever resolved but one possibility was that they were to GWR Diagram O18. So you might like to just reletter an O18 and possibly number it somewhere in the sequence 470-519, though there was a good deal of guessing on my part at the time. Then wait for contradictory evidence.

Incidentally, the tables of goods wagons in the Rhymney drawings book were based on my transcription of Harold Morgan's records, combined with other sources and include what I now think are some errors, based on information which has since come into my hands. I really must go through all that lot again sometime and try to try it out.

Jonathan

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On 21/02/2017 at 21:55, Penlan said:

On the Barry Railway page, of the WRRC's data sheet for using kits to make Welsh railway stock,  

it shows the single planker as having the lettering as 'BARRY            COY' or similar, 

this extract from a Cliff Harris photo shows 'By     Co' on a Bolster wagon.

 

post-6979-0-10218300-1487714078.jpg

 

One can't help but wonder there are any trees left in the world at all,

when one looks at all the timber there is being used in the early 20th C photos.

Dem's pit props dem am, Penlan, and given the hoist in the background the location is almost certainly Barry Docks.  Imported from the Baltic, Bordeaux area of France, and the Ardennes in Belgium, they had to be stored for 6 to 8 weeks to season before they were distributed to the collieries.  

 

When you realise the sheer bulk of coal that has been removed from beneath South Wales, it's amazing that the whole region hasn't dropped several feet!

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On 19/11/2019 at 17:11, The Johnster said:

Dem's pit props dem am, Penlan, and given the hoist in the background the location is almost certainly Barry Docks.  Imported from the Baltic, Bordeaux area of France, and the Ardennes in Belgium, they had to be stored for 6 to 8 weeks to season before they were distributed to the collieries.  

 

When you realise the sheer bulk of coal that has been removed from beneath South Wales, it's amazing that the whole region hasn't dropped several feet!

 

Quite right, Johnster. Google the 'Walls of Treorchy'.....

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