Administrators Phil Parker Posted January 28, 2016 Administrators Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Well I can certainly say this had me drooling when I saw it today. Does it look like it has a 9 or 10ft wheelbase though? Cannot tell at the angle the photo has been took.... When I took the photo above for MREmag, I thought the light really highlighted the quality of the mouldings of all the new wagons. They really are crisp and best of all these are shots from the real tools, not 3D renderings. While I was there, I took a side and underneath view for BRM - this has been passed over to Andy for use later. Didn't get the chance to measure the wheelbase though. Edited January 28, 2016 by Phil Parker Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted January 29, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) That one looks like 9' - the distance between the end of the brake lever and the back of the headstock gives it away. However, it looks as if they might do both (see my post #15). John Looks like a 10' WB to me. Isn't the brake lever longer? It is hard to tell. The brake hanger seems to be a separate molding and I notice split axel boxes??? This looks to be an exciting release. The first LNER wagon since the short lived, misliveried Trout ballast from Hornby. Shaun. Edited January 29, 2016 by Sasquatch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
exet1095 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 It looked the same length as their other wagons when I had a look at the Toyfair, so 9' I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Anyone know when the LNER 9' w.b. cattle's were withdrawn? David Larkins old wagon albums books don't carry them unfortunately,. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I don't think many made the 1960s, Larry. They were timber underframed and (in the main) 9' WB, so they 'hogged' and were speed restricted. The LNER were converting them to conflats in the 1930s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Thanks Jonathon. So long as they cleared 1957 that'll do me. Cattle traffic was in decline before the war and it did well to last until the early 1960's,. Glad I can use a couple of these LNER wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 29, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2016 I think I'll be adding one of these to my fleet too. Looks very nice so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 So post nationalisation would these have been found all over the network? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sasquatch Posted January 29, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) So post nationalisation would these have been found all over the network? There's a picture of one on Newhaven harbor on the cambrain web site and I've a picture of them on the LMS @ Bradford L&Y goods yard out numbering 5 planks 6 to 1 pre nationalisation. So yes! Sorry. For some reason I thought I was replying to the six plank thread. I have flu and am drowsy from the medication. Will stop posting and go back to bed! Shaun. Edited January 29, 2016 by Sasquatch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Pretty sure that's a 9' WB: the 10' ones had different metalwork/plates where the diagonal framing meets the door (and probably other minor differences too). I converted 5 Parkside ones to 10' (see workbench) using Dave Bradwell underframes, scratch replacement solebars and bits and pieces. I've got another 8 in the drawer to do sometime. The Oxford model looks nice, though I can't see the notches for the partitions, and the bars look a bit thick, but easily remedied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 29, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) Pretty sure that's a 9' WB: the 10' ones had different metalwork/plates where the diagonal framing meets the door (and probably other minor differences too). I converted 5 Parkside ones to 10' (see workbench) using Dave Bradwell underframes, scratch replacement solebars and bits and pieces. I've got another 8 in the drawer to do sometime. The Oxford model looks nice, though I can't see the notches for the partitions, and the bars look a bit thick, but easily remedied. If Oxford are going to do a BR one (especially one with XP on it), it needs to be 10' wheelbase. The LNER are believed to have scrapped the remaining 9' wb. examples of that style before 1948 and, had it not been for WW2, they would have gone earlier. It says much for their deficiencies that many older wagons based on the GNR style lasted far longer. My Parkside conversion was arrived at by the simple (though perhaps risky) expedient of trimming 2mm off each end of the solebars, cutting the remains in half and mounting them on the wagon. The gaps in the middle were then filled with suitable bits of plastic. Yes the axles are parallel, square and level but it needs care to achieve! Mine will be numbered as one of the handful of straight ones the LNER converted from 9' to 10' wheelbase so I can leave the strapping alone. I think a few of the 10' wheelbase ones lasted to 1961-2. John Edited January 29, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) If Oxford are going to do a BR one (especially one with XP on it), it needs to be 10' wheelbase. The LNER are believed to have scrapped the remaining 9' wb. examples of that style before 1948 and, had it not been for WW2, they would have gone earlier. It says much for their deficiencies that many older wagons based on the GNR style lasted far longer. My Parkside conversion was arrived at by the simple (though perhaps risky) expedient of trimming 2mm off each end of the solebars, cutting the remains in half and mounting them on the wagon. The gaps in the middle were then filled with suitable bits of plastic. Yes the axles are parallel, square and level but it needs care to achieve! Mine will be numbered as one of the handful of straight ones the LNER converted from 9' to 10' wheelbase so I can leave the strapping alone. I think a few of the 10' wheelbase ones lasted to 1961-2. John Yes, the conversion to 10' is a surprising amount of work! I believe that quite a few 9' ones DID make it into BR days (over 1000 according to Tatlow), but I suspect they were scrapped well before the 10' ones. (Edit - however I suspect you're right about the XP branding - wasn't there a minimum wheelbase for this? (possibly 10')) Edited January 29, 2016 by Tim Lewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Yes, the conversion to 10' is a surprising amount of work! I believe that quite a few 9' ones DID make it into BR days (over 1000 according to Tatlow), but I suspect they were scrapped well before the 10' ones. (Edit - however I suspect you're right about the XP branding - wasn't there a minimum wheelbase for this? (possibly 10')) LNER 9' cattle wagons did survive into BR days, but AFAIK not the ones like these, built c1927, most of which distorted badly enough to be withdrawn when no more than 20 years old. Most (if not all) of the 9' wagons to survive beyond 1948 would have been of the GNR style with a drop ramp and no upper doors, or the NER pattern which continued to be produced by the LNER up to c1924. See Tatlow (the Pendragon edition) pp 118-119. In the caption relating to the LNER standard vans, he states "Plate 265 shows one of the rare examples with a 10 foot wheelbase. About a dozen were converted to the new dimension and seven built new as such". However, this appears to be a misprint as, in British Railway Wagons No.5 by Geoff Gamble (Cheona Publications, 1997) the number series of the Diagram 122 vans (the 10' wheelbase ones) is stated to be E195967 - E 196666, i.e. seven hundred wagons. The photo in the latter publication shows 10' van E196645 at St. Blazey, Cornwall, in 1958, indicating that they did get around a bit. I have seen a published photo of another one in Scotland in 1961/2 with a caption implying that it was one of the last of its kind in traffic but can't lay hands on it right now to quote the source. You are correct re. XP marking, the minimum wheelbase for such classification was 10'. However, it was not unknown for it to be applied in error to various 9' wb. wagons until corrected. As to the 9' wb. LNER vehicles of the type under discussion, Ken Leeming (LNER Study Group), writing in Railway Modeller, July 1977, states " They were all quickly and quietly withdrawn between 1945-48 and could be seen forlornly rotting on closed branch lines prior to being broken up". John Edited January 30, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks Dunsignalling. I can at least have one of these interesting cattle wagons rotting in a siding then. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Thanks Dunsignalling. I can at least have one of these interesting cattle wagons rotting in a siding then. I'm hoping they'll do the BR version with a 10' wb. but, if not, there's the option to convert. I gather the chassis comes out of the 7-planks quite easily and, if this one is made the same, it shouldn't be too difficult. [speaking as an experienced and fairly reckless hacker] Another option, of course, is to just turn a blind eye to it! I have no doubt that there are plenty of kit-built ones that are treated exactly thus. John Edited January 30, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColHut Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I have a vague recollection that LN ER permitted their 9' wb fitted cattle wagons to run as xp. Not sure they were marked thus though. I think in the general apoendix. I'll take a look.?.... Nope completely deluded. I was thinking of the 14 1/2 foot LNER Horse boxes which were exempt the usual 60 mph speed restriction for 4 wheel NPCS less 15' wheel base (when running on LNER lines) I think no 9' wb wagon was permitted to run in passenger trains when the xp marking were introduced (1938?) even though they were built otherwise to coaching stock requirements. They could be run in express freight subject to the usual speed restrictions - 60mph I believe. Not sure about before 1938. Regards Edited February 1, 2016 by ColHut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnylinny Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 At the risk of a silly question... I can see the flexible vacuum brake hose at the end of the wagon, but should there not be a rigid pipe from under the wagon up to the point where the flexible pipe meets the wagon body? I don't think I've ever seen a wagon with the pipe just coming out of the end wall like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Should have a pipe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Following me re-reading the chapter in LNER Wagons Volume 4B on the LNER Cattle wagon, I think my original pre-order of 1 will have to be increased. Looking at having two done to represent the 5 LNER Dia.39 examples (CLC 4471/75) that were built for the Cheshire Line Commitee and then eventually passed to LNER and LMS ownership (LNER 545684 to 545686 whilst 4474/75 went into LMS hands). However the chapter only gives information on the LNER examples and nothing on the LMS ones. Does anyone have any information on the numbers the LMS gave them? Abit of a gamble I know but does anyone know if all five lasted until 1948 as well? Edited February 12, 2016 by Garethp8873 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Following me re-reading the chapter in LNER Wagons Volume 4B on the LNER Cattle wagon, I think my original pre-order of 1 will have to be increased. Looking at having two done to represent the 5 Diagram 39 examples (CLC 4471/75) that were built for the Cheshire Line Commitee and then eventually went to LNER and LMS ownership (LNER 545684 to 545686 whilst 4474/75 went into LMS hands). However the chapter only gives information on the LNER examples and nothing on the LMS ones. Does anyone have any information on the numbers the LMS gave them? Abit of a gamble I know but does anyone know if all five lasted until 1948 as well? Wouldn't any cattle wagons built for the CLC pre-1923 have been the Great Central type? The one Oxford is planning is based on the LNER design built from 1927 (and, hopefully the 10' wb 1937 batch, too). John Edited February 12, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Wouldn't any cattle wagons built for the CLC pre-1923 have been the Great Central type? The one Oxford is planning is based on the LNER design built from 1927 (and, hopefully the 10' wb 1937 batch, too). John Quite the contrary John, the CLC had five Dia.39 LNER Cattle wagons built for them by Charles Roberts in 1928 for £210 (the details of these are in my previous post). There was also fifteen Dia.40 built by Charles Roberts in 1928 and numbered 4476 to 4490. Of the Dia.40, LMS had 4486 to 4490 and 4476/85 went to LNER ownership and were numbered 545687 to 545696 with one of these lasting at least til June 1963. On P.294 of LNER Wagons Volume 4B, there's a photo of one of the Dia.39 in CL livery. I must admit I never knew about this interesting fact until I purchased Volume 4B last year. Since then it's been something I've wanted to add to my growing collection of one off wagons... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 12, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Quite the contrary John, the CLC had five Dia.39 LNER Cattle wagons built for them by Charles Roberts in 1928 for £210 (the details of these are in my previous post). There was also fifteen Dia.40 built by Charles Roberts in 1928 and numbered 4476 to 4490. Of the Dia.40, LMS had 4486 to 4490 and 4476/85 went to LNER ownership and were numbered 545687 to 545696 with one of these lasting at least til June 1963. On P.294 of LNER Wagons Volume 4B, there's a photo of one of the Dia.39 in CL livery. I must admit I never knew about this interesting fact until I purchased Volume 4B last year. Since then it's been something I've wanted to add to my growing collection of one off wagons... Sorry, I misunderstood your reference to the wagons passing into LNER/LMS ownership which presumably happened when the CLC ceased to own its own stock (not sure when that was) rather than at the grouping. Volume 4b looks like one for my shopping list - I currently only have the old single-volume work by Mr. Tatlow. John Edited February 12, 2016 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Sorry, I misunderstood your reference to the wagons passing into LNER/LMS ownership which presumably happened when the CLC ceased to own its own stock (not sure when that was) rather than at the grouping. Volume 4b looks like one for my shopping list - I currently only have the old single-volume work by Mr. Tatlow. John LNER Wagons Vol 4A and 4B are very valuable assets John, infact all the books are. I fully recommend them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Revenue earning CLC stock was divided between the LMS and LNER in 1930 IIRC. (Not really well up on modern image topics.) Each CL diagram was split as proportionately as possible, and this will have applied to any cattle trucks. Re. post #45, not all pre 1923 CL cattle wagons were of GC designs. Some were built at Derby to a Midland design, but I don't know exactly which design or whether the brakes differed. (Probably did, knowing the CLC). I only wish I did know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) £10.50 Strange that OR can sell their one for this price and the Bachmann one comes out at £17.95?. Edited March 23, 2016 by darren01 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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