Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge GWR Dean Goods

[tomparryharry]

I seem to remember that the original models had 2 flywheels, in addition to the 5-pole motor. My hand has been hovering over the wallet for some time now, but:-

 

A- Is it  a lemon? 

B- Can it be upgraded? 

 

Thoughts and opinions are, as usual, gratefully received.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I seem to remember that the original models had 2 flywheels, in addition to the 5-pole motor.

That's right.

 

Quote

 

My hand has been hovering over the wallet for some time now, but:-

 

A- Is it  a lemon? 

B- Can it be upgraded? 

 

Thoughts and opinions are, as usual, gratefully received.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

A. Yes, it is a lemon. That's why they are now being sold off at lemon prices.

B. They can be upgraded if you can find a motor that will fit. (Expensive but simple solution: Buy two, an early one with the body errors and a later one with the tiny motor. You can then use the early motor with its flywheels in the later, more correct body.)

C. They can't pull the skin off a rice pudding - that's about traction more than motor power.

D. Some of them are really inconsistent runners.

 

Can you tell my experience with them has not been good? I've got 3, all now non-runners for various reasons. I might be able to cobble together one that works, like Frankenstein's monster, but to be honest I'm fed up with them at the moment.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Harlequin

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I seem to remember that the original models had 2 flywheels, in addition to the 5-pole motor. My hand has been hovering over the wallet for some time now, but:-

 

A- Is it  a lemon? 

B- Can it be upgraded? 

 

Thoughts and opinions are, as usual, gratefully received.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

I've got two both with the later coreless motors. (Both were cheap from Ian Allan when closing in Birmingham)

Mine do  however run quite nicely, including the one with a replacement motor. (which now has the second flywheel off the duff motor)

They are a bit gutless as they can't cope with a decent load.

 

IMHO If you are prepared to change the motor and the one you buy is cheap - do it.

I'm considering trying a Mashima 10 series motor (i've got a few) as it's a similar size to the original coreless one.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by melmerby

[amdaley]

4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I seem to remember that the original models had 2 flywheels, in addition to the 5-pole motor. My hand has been hovering over the wallet for some time now, but:-

 

A- Is it  a lemon? 

B- Can it be upgraded? 

 

Thoughts and opinions are, as usual, gratefully received.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

If you can get them cheap then they are worth it but only if they're cheap.

[tomparryharry]

Thanks guys. Information as usual, is much appreciated. 

 

I have a Hornby/Airfix /Mainline/ Uncle Tom Cobbley Dean over here, and I have considered making a slimmer tender drive using a double pole  motor, possibly on its side.   

 

It is a long-term job however, so any purchase on my part is speculation for future projects. I must confess that the prospect of information received has tempered my enthusiasm somewhat. 

 

We shall see....

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

 

I have a Hornby/Airfix /Mainline/ Uncle Tom Cobbley Dean over here, and I have considered making a slimmer tender drive using a double pole  motor, possibly on its side.   

 

It is a long-term job however, so any purchase on my part is speculation for future projects. I must confess that the prospect of information received has tempered my enthusiasm somewhat. 

 

We shall see....

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

Same here

The Airfix/Mainline/Hornby Dean goods is a nice looker but the tender drive unit is a joke.

I've got all the bits to make a new tender drive

3 worm gears/3 pinions for the 2mm axle tender wheels plus a 2mm shaft.

Mashima 1624 motor

Brass strip for a chassis.

Plenty of lead to get the mass up.

What I am missing is the energy to start yet another project to add to the pile of other unfinished projects!

Edited July 14, 2020 by melmerby

[tomparryharry]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Same here

The Airfix/Mainline/Hornby Dean goods is a nice looker but the tender drive unit is a joke.

I've got all the bits to make a new tender drive

3 worm gears/3 pinions for the 2mm axle tender wheels plus a 2mm shaft.

Mashima 1624 motor

Brass strip for a chassis.

Plenty of lead to get the mass up.

What I am missing is the energy to start yet another project to add to the pile of other unfinished projects!

 

Have you considered a K's tender, to give you some mass? 

[Coach bogie]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

I've got two both with the later coreless motors. (Both were cheap from Ian Allan when closing in Birmingham)

Mine do  however run quite nicely, including the one with a replacement motor. (which now has the second flywheel off the duff motor)

They are a bit gutless as they can't cope with a decent load.

 

I changed the tender connector, sat the tender on the back of a new drawbar and opened out the front/middle tender axle boxes. The pulling power is increased x2 on  my line. See page 65.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[BWsTrains]

3 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

I changed the tender connector, sat the tender on the back of a new drawbar and opened out the front/middle tender axle boxes. The pulling power is increased x2 on  my line. See page 65.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hi Mike,

 

Interesting solution, it pre-dates my interest in the OR Dean so I'd not seen that before.

 

from the date of your original post I'm wondering if your model has the original drive with 5 pole motor / 2 flywheels. IIRC the motor /drive changes came in later with 2475 etc. If so, your poor performance would  add a further twist to this saga. 

 

Colin

[tomparryharry]

7 hours ago, scumcat said:

Or E, replace the rubbish corless motor with a five pole Hornby motor that usually goes in the J36 as I described on the previous page. This then gives the reliability and running you would need, as long as the gearing and pickups are good. You don’t need to buy the expensive early model. Mine is now an excellent model and can pull a decent load

 

Thank you for that. I did indeed catch your earlier post, but some some obscure reason, I couldn't find your post. My fault; I assure you. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

Edit. It's worse. Not only did I read your post, I even replied to your post.  Back to bed, methinks.......

Edited July 15, 2020 by tomparryharry
Forgetfulness:- Sorry!

[bigherb]

Look what you made me do I had to find out which motor mine has single flywheel jobbie, not sure if it coreless though. Sorry about the quality had to use the phone camera.

 

But if it is it exceptionally good using an AMR feedback controller.

 

[melmerby]

That's the coreless motor

 

EDIT

There have been reports (on RMWeb) that the AMR controller might not be kind to coreless motors.

Edited July 15, 2020 by melmerby

[bigherb]

10 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That's the coreless motor

 

EDIT

There have been reports (on RMWeb) that the AMR controller might not be kind to coreless motors.

That's the point, if it is coreless it is not effected by an AMR controller.

[melmerby]

25 minutes ago, bigherb said:

That's the point, if it is coreless it is not effected by an AMR controller.

I don't understand that comment.

If it's not kind to it, it could be slowly destroying it.

That's the point with LF feedback controllers and coreless motors.

The much lower BEMF means the controller over compensates and can send a dangerously high pulse.

 

I've got a controller derived from a Wireless World circuit that will control a motor that slowly but I wouldn't use it with a coreless motor.

[Nile]

I seem to have missed it, where is the evidence it's a coreless motor?

[chuffinghell]

3 minutes ago, Nile said:

I seem to have missed it, where is the evidence it's a coreless motor?

I don’t know about cordless motor my Oxford Rail Dean Goods has a motionless one 

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

I don’t know about cordless motor my Oxford Rail Dean Goods has a motionless one 

Really? You too? It's really disappointing, isn't it!

 

I managed to get one running today. It's the chassis and old motor of 2309 in the new (glossy) body of NRM 2516. The problem was that the decoder was dead - probably killed by the burnt out motor in 2475 when I was swapping things around. (Are you following this?)

Fitted a new Zimo decoder to 2516 and she's a runner -  a smooth runner even!

 

2309 with 2516's chassis only moves 5mm at a time.

 

2475 is standing on the scrap line, even with it's replacement motor. Shame because that one had sound and flickering firebox.

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Harlequin

[57xx]

On 15/07/2020 at 10:13, bigherb said:

That's the point, if it is coreless it is not effected by an AMR controller.

 

Works fine on my ECM controller too. Running the Hattons 5800 with coreless motor on the ECM make it sound like a bag of nails. Maybe the flywheel on the Dean is helping smooth it all out.

[57xx]

On 14/07/2020 at 08:59, Harlequin said:

C. They can't pull the skin off a rice pudding - that's about traction more than motor power.

 

 

Check the centre wheels for wear (or rather, lack of...). I had several where the centre wheels did not touch the track. After running in, you could see wear marks on both pairs of outer wheels, but not on the centre pair. This affects grip and  current collection. The one I have now is better but still not perfect. Not got round to tweaking it yet, I kept it as it at least would run slowly, unlike the first two.

[melmerby]

Just had another go with one of my two

Will start 8 bogies, quiet, nice and smooth, but will not climb any sort of gradient even 4 was a struggle due to slipping so added some exterior weight on loco. will just about take 7 up the gradient but there is quite a bit more mechanical gear noise, put on 8 and it slows down too much.

 

Definitely needs a more powerful motor.

 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, 57xx said:

 

Check the centre wheels for wear (or rather, lack of...). I had several where the centre wheels did not touch the track. After running in, you could see wear marks on both pairs of outer wheels, but not on the centre pair. This affects grip and  current collection. The one I have now is better but still not perfect. Not got round to tweaking it yet, I kept it as it at least would run slowly, unlike the first two.

 

Try slotting the centre axle bearings downwards, and adding springs bearing down on the axle.

 

John Isherwood.

[BWsTrains]

4 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

Works fine on my ECM controller too. Running the Hattons 5800 with coreless motor on the ECM make it sound like a bag of nails. Maybe the flywheel on the Dean is helping smooth it all out.

 

I'm no expert in electronics but isn't the BEMF an inherent characteristic of the motor, a natural consequence of the current flowing in the coils?

Motor turns and generates a BEMF; without a core - the motor generates far less feedback so to my mind that would be independent of any flywheel or load.

Edited July 16, 2020 by BWsTrains
typo

[melmerby]

The BEMF is generated by the inductance of the coils. A coreless motor has much less inductance than an iron cored one.

As I understand it, at low frequencies a coreless motor produces little BEMF and a low frequency BEMF controller can damage them by overcompensating for lack of BEMF. This can overheat the windings which cannot dissipate the heat generated.

With a higher frequency BEMF controller (say 20kHz) the BEMF is less affected and the motor runs fine.

 

DCC decoders are generally high frequency so no problems on DCC, but some DC controllers use LF BEMF, so can be a problem.

[melmerby]

49 minutes ago, scumcat said:

 I had 3 fully laden macaws behind my remotored 2475 also 7 fully loaded coal trucks, 6 loaded ballast wagons, 2 lime stone wagons and a brake. It pulled them with ease. Although it will only pull 8 wagons up a 3% gradient. I’ve been trying to post a video but it would not load.

You can't post video to RMWeb. It's not amongst the file formats allowed.

Andy Y explains it uses up too much capacity.

 

You need to use something like YouTube and post a hotlink.

[Ribird]

First repaint in the Oxford Rail Dean Goods. I still need to touch up a few places, etched plates, and a good amount of weathering. Colour is a custom mix by me, I do hope this will suit

 

Any comments for improvement will be helpful! 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Ribird