Oxford Rail announces - OO gauge GWR Dean Goods

[Garethp8873]

On the subject of the GWR Wartime Black Dean Goods, following me purchasing the book William Dean today I've been able to find several running numbers of Dean Goods that received the War Black livery. For those that are interested in the running numbers, they are at the link below:

 

http://www.rmweb.co....y/#entry3401879

[Star-rider]

Thanks for sharing that, at least I know there is something to aim for now.

 

I'll persevere with it over the Christmas week, if I could get slow running half as good as that I would be happy.

 

 

Pete,

 

Regarding Dean Goods operation, the main issues for me have been slow running and coming to a halt. Normal speed running has generally been fine.

The first video shows a very slow start after the delay, just getting up to shunting speed of 2-3mph, 

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Au252AreD6BYlHgNIOweMb0y3uvK

 

and then normal running for reference:

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Au252AreD6BYlHnrnqImKJ8UXvOp

 

This replacement model in these videos comes to a perfectly smooth stop.

 

Colin

[jwd]

Sorry if I have missed it (long thread) but has anyone any experiences to share on the sound fitted version?

 

I am particularly interested in what adjustments have been made to CVs for best running.

 

Due to less than positive reviews I hung back from purchasing but in the end picked one up in Hatton’s sale. It was truly awful; it would sit on the track hissing away happily until I tried to introduce it to the concept of forward motion. There would be fractional movement (millimetres) and then it would stall and the sound would die as if the power had been turned off. A slight nudge would get the sound active again, but as soon as throttle was applied there was the same jerk and shut down.

 

I persevered for a couple of days but eventually gave up and returned it to the supplier stating that I would be happy for a replacement on the condition that they would test it before despatch. Hatton’s return service was great, I got a prepaid return label e-mailed to me and the replacement loco was with me within a week of me sending the original back. I have to say I am not convinced the replacement was tested though; the packaging looked a little too pristine and the performance of the new model was only slightly better than the last. At least when I can get this one moving (same start-up problems) it will circuit my layout at moderate to fast speeds – the original never made it round at all without constant poking.

 

I’m not sure what the delay in forward movement is all about when applying throttle unless it is something to do with sound realism?

 

As I say, if anyone has tweaked the CVs to get better starting and slow running I’d be delighted to hear of it.

 

Pete.

 

Just my two cents worth, I bought 3 of these (two early with twin flywheel and one later version with 'cheaper' drivetrain) they all run perfectly on DC although the 'cheaper' drivetrain version is noticeably less smoother.

 

When going to DCC make sure you pull out the capacitor as mentioned by  :

 

http://www.youchoos.co.uk/Index-Resource.php?L1=Guides&Item=OO-OxfordDeanGoods

 

All CV's were kept as default so no tweaking required, but capacitor did make a difference not just in the decoder mentioned above.

 

Superb locos, will be buying the ROD version with WW1 gun it appears too....

Edited December 25, 2018 by jwd

[gwrrob]

[SDJR7F88]

A video featuring my renumbered ROD 'Dean Goods' with DCC Sound, running with the eagerly anticipated 00 Gauge BL 13.5 inch Railgun "Gladiator". 

Just waiting for the proper WW1 set now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yj3c53yB44

Edited March 1, 2019 by SDJR7F88

[BWsTrains]

great video but I think your Dean goods is decidedly noisy when the whine can be heard over the running loco with sound. IMO, not good at all as it may shorten the life of the motor if it's that loud.

 

Colin

[SDJR7F88]

10 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

great video but I think your Dean goods is decidedly noisy when the whine can be heard over the running loco with sound. IMO, not good at all as it may shorten the life of the motor if it's that loud.

 

Colin

Hi Colin. I'm very new to DCC, and was wondering if I have the setting wrong. I've tried a few suggested, but nothing has seemed to work yet

[BWsTrains]

Hi,

 

It's nothing to do with being on DCC, its somewhere in either motor or gearing. If you bought the "with sound" model, as i did, no tinkering with settings was required.

 

I can only suggest you read thru the back pages of this Topic over the last year where there are many examples of non-running, poor running, noisy running, failure etc. and consider if your model is "up to scratch". If not get it back to the dealer you bought it from to resolve. I had one return before getting a goodun', others had multiple tries.

 

Colin

 

 

[melmerby]

Hi all

Has anybody had any problems with the motor (later type) in their Dean Goods?

 

Mine was running slowly the other day when it suddenly came to a complete stop, tripping the DCC system.

I have checked it out thoroughly and found that the decoder had failed (Lenz Standard +)

The decoder error (CV30) shows permanently motor short circuit. Unable to reset it.

I replaced it with another decoder, checked it with my Sprog, all OK so I tried to run it. It went two inches and stopped dead.

Checked the new decoder, now also showing motor short but I was able to reset it and the decoder still works fine elsewhere.

Checked the wiring for shorts , nothing. checked the motor, seems to run fine on a 12v DC supply but I notice that the static resistance of the segments is only around 20-30 ohms, a similar sized Mashima is well into the hundreds of ohms.

 

Is the motor faulty?*

(I've checked several other loco motors and they are all way higher than 20 ohms static resistance)

 

EDIT *I remembered I had another DG in the cupboard so I got that out and checked the motor, it is the same.

Is this a core-less motor?

 

At least I can now do some substitution

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by melmerby

[D9020 Nimbus]

With 20-30 ohms, you'd expect a current of 0.4 to 0.6 A at 12 V DC. Seems high for a modern motor, more like the draw from motors of 50 or so years ago like HD. Some DC controllers only offer a maximum 0.4 A!

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

With 20-30 ohms, you'd expect a current of 0.4 to 0.6 A at 12 V DC. Seems high for a modern motor, more like the draw from motors of 50 or so years ago like HD. Some DC controllers only offer a maximum 0.4 A!

That's static resistance, not the effective resistance under normal conditions.

 

Anyway it does look like the motor as after eliminating everything else I came back to measuring the motor again after destroying another decoder.

(it runs on 12v DC!)

resistance of the good motor as you rotate the com = 26, 26, 26 etc

The bad one = 26, 16.5, 20.5, 0.6 etc

 

[Harlequin]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi all

Has anybody had any problems with the motor (later type) in their Dean Goods?

 

Mine was running slowly the other day when it suddenly came to a complete stop, tripping the DCC system.

I have checked it out thoroughly and found that the decoder had failed (Lenz Standard +)

The decoder error (CV30) shows permanently motor short circuit. Unable to reset it.

I replaced it with another decoder, checked it with my Sprog, all OK so I tried to run it. It went two inches and stopped dead.

Checked the new decoder, now also showing motor short but I was able to reset it and the decoder still works fine elsewhere.

Checked the wiring for shorts , nothing. checked the motor, seems to run fine on a 12v DC supply but I notice that the static resistance of the segments is only around 20-30 ohms, a similar sized Mashima is well into the hundreds of ohms.

 

Is the motor faulty?*

(I've checked several other loco motors and they are all way higher than 20 ohms static resistance)

 

EDIT *I remembered I had another DG in the cupboard so I got that out and checked the motor, it is the same.

Is this a core-less motor?

 

At least I can now do some substitution

 

 

Yes, me - and you even commented in the thread! 

The eventual diagnosis was that one of the motor coils had shorted and Oxford very kindly sent me a replacement.

I have fitted it but it's not yet running properly - a whole new round of diagnosis needed. -Sigh-

 

[melmerby]

I've e-mailed Oxford, I await their response.

 

I've determined it is very likely a coreless motor (type 1021), not designed for trains as far as I could make out.

Cheap as chips from Ali-Express

The shafts are only 1mm which is unsusual as gears & flywheels are not easily obtainable.

I reckon a Mashima 1024 would fit with a bit of work, flywheel would need boring out to 1.5mm and fitted to the Mashima motor as it's part of the UJ

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by melmerby

[Joseph_Pestell]

Most of you posting here have a lot more technical knowledge than me. But it has certainly been obvious to me that manufacturers have been cutting corners when it comes to motors. Come on, guys. When you are selling locos at £120+, it makes more sense to charge a few more pounds and put in a decent motor than one of these 50p jobs.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Most of you posting here have a lot more technical knowledge than me. But it has certainly been obvious to me that manufacturers have been cutting corners when it comes to motors. Come on, guys. When you are selling locos at £120+, it makes more sense to charge a few more pounds and put in a decent motor than one of these 50p jobs.

Chinese motors are very cheap anyway, the savings from using a cheaper one can only be pennies.

My first Dean Goods cost me £80, the second £60, both brand new and both from a shop. (also both the same "revised" model)

 

Oxford did however downgrade the motor from the initial (inaccurate) release which had a beefier motor & two flywheels, to the second with the more accurate cab etc. but a revised (smaller) motor with one flywheel.

Edited June 26, 2019 by melmerby

[BWsTrains]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi all

Has anybody had any problems with the motor (later type) in their Dean Goods?.........

 

 

Hi Keith,

 

That's terrible news, I've got the sound version at GBP 160 after going thru much pain before finding even one that worked "as new". Now I'm out of warranty, your news makes me want to pull that expensive chip out right away, fit it to my Collett goods and consign the Dean Goods to some future DC or static use.

 

Totally disappointed. Let us know what you do WRT to motor replacement

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 obvious to me that manufacturers have been cutting corners when it comes to motors. 

Minimum viable product

[melmerby]

12 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

But it has certainly been obvious to me that manufacturers have been cutting corners when it comes to motors.

 

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Minimum viable product

Unfortunately the motor in the later version of the DG is barely that, it's not really powerful enough.

Even with an only moderate load it will slow down on a gradient. This is especially telling as it is quite light weight anyway.

It's about the least powerful 0-6-0 tender loco I have. (2 of them actually)

Edited June 27, 2019 by melmerby

[BWsTrains]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

Unfortunately the motor in the later version of the DG is barely that, it's not really powerful enough.

Even with an only moderate load it will slow down on a gradient. This is especially telling as it is quite light weight anyway.

It's about the least powerful 0-6-0 tender loco I have. (2 of them actually)

 

Underpowered = overloaded; which will lead to motor overheating under continuing stress -> premature failure

 

This is a sad tale; as good a case of the "triumph" of style over substance as you'll find, when design limitations are fixed at the expense of performance.

 

Colin

[melmerby]

Oxford had what looked like a good drive package with the first release but messed up when they economised with the later releases.

If, as I suspect that the motor is coreless, it is IMHO too fragile for this use.

They are less capable of absorbing heat from continuous running near their limits

 

[Harlequin]

When I was researching these types of motor, looking for a replacement, I found out that they are mainly used in, ahem, personal massagers...

 

So they are almost throw-away items and not engineered for prolonged running. <Fill in your own punchline here.>

 

However, I think the chassis will still accept the earlier type of motor if you can find a source for them.

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

When I was researching these types of motor, looking for a replacement, I found out that they are mainly used in, ahem, personal massagers...

 

 

 

Also other personal hygiene products and small drones, where the light weight is an advantage, most are 3v - 7.4v rated

Considering my Dean Goods is on DCC with the CV5 top speed setting at 180 wrt 255 max I dread to think how quickly you could cook one on max speed.

Maybe a change of motor setting (Lenz have 5 different motor presets available)

[melmerby]

Oxford have kindly agreed to send me a replacement motor.

Apparently the later one is more reliable than the earlier one, it is also not a coreless motor but a 5 pole, iron core, skew wound device.

Edited June 28, 2019 by melmerby

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Oxford have kindly agreed to send me a replacement motor.

Apparently the later one is more reliable than the earlier one, it is also not a coreless motor but a 5 pole, iiron core, skew wound device.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that they have reverted to the first motor type and that that's what you'll get as a replacement. It certainly sounds like it from the technical description.

 

Please post a photo when you get it so we can compare with other motors fitted to this model.

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I wouldn't be surprised to find that they have reverted to the first motor type and that that's what you'll get as a replacement. It certainly sounds like it from the technical description.

 

 

 

They said it will be the later type which they are using as a common motor for several models.