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The Oak Hill Branch - LBSCR / SECR 1905ish - New layout starts on page 129


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  • RMweb Gold

I think the biggest problem is they were happy to send me home as I was eating again but having had surgery on my mouth eating is a horrible thing to do and I can't have anything hot so it's just cold soup for dinner tonight.

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  • RMweb Gold

A quick update on my situation. Yesterday afternoon saw a return to the hospital as my face had swollen quite badly and I am now on antibiotics as well as everything due to an infection in my lower jaw. This has left me feeling just as bad as I did after the op and meaning that I am stil stuck in bed without any energy do anything. I'm just glad I have my other half to look after me.

 

Gary

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  • RMweb Gold

Well lets start the update with some good news. I finished my pills at the weekend and even took the car out for a quick spin and it felt really good to drive again, and I then returned to work yesterday.

 

And something about the layout during the week my wonderful misses decided that I would go mad in bed with nothing to do for my waking hours so on a trip to McDonald's with the kids she "acquired" a few hundred coffee stirrers for me and I got to work making a wall for the rear of the platform which to be honest I think may have sent me more insane that doing nothing. The wall was based on the one that was on the up platform at Hailsham and while it is far from perfect and the wood is massively over scale I think I may keep it as a memento to modelling done while high on prescription painkillers:

post-22762-0-97359600-1491913882_thumb.jpg

 

For the next stage of the layout I would like to get the signalling sorted as I feel it would be beneficial to do this now while the layout is relativity clear so I can put in point rodding etc. before building the signal box and laying new ballast so later in the week I will prepare a plan of the layout and some operations and will need lots of feedback regarding signalling as to say I don't understand it would be a considerable understatement.

 

Thanks for looking,

 

Gary

Edited by BlueLightning
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  • RMweb Gold

Well as promised a follow up post to describe my signalling needs.

 

On Oak Hill the passenger services enter the station through the tunnel the loco runs round in the loop and either goes to the loco yard to take on coal and water or moves to the other end of the coaches ready to leave back towards Groombridge.

 

The goods services can head to several destinations depending on what goods they have the important things to note is that goods trains are made/disassembled in the loop and when being made the limit of shunt for the loco is the entrance to the tunnel (fiddle yard entrance).

 

The branch is not one engine in steam and needs full signalling. The problem here is I do not know anything about signalling. I assume I need a starter at the end of the platform and the signal for entry to the station would be on the other side of the tunnel.

 

The main questions I have are:

 

1) Would the rest of the layout eg. goods areas and loco yard have any signalling? If so where? and what type? I assume it would be ground signals is this correct?

 

2) Would I need a signal at the entrance to the tunnel for locos shunting goods trains? if not what would be there and how would the shunting on the 'main line' be dealt with?

 

3) And finally which points would have been worked from the signal box and which would have been worked by hand.

 

I attach a plan of the layout below and also an AnyRail file of the same plan for anyone that might want to play with it. I have put numbers by the points and colour coded the plan to hopefully make everything easier to work out.

 

post-22762-0-17118300-1491914006_thumb.jpg

 

AnyRail Download

 

Thanks in advance for any help received,

 

Gary

Edited by BlueLightning
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  • RMweb Gold

Right.

 

First of all you need a trap point at 3 to stop any unauthorised movement from any of the sidings out onto the 'main line', best way is to do a dummy in the middle of points No 3 as per the way it was done at Bodmin - just google Bodmin/Bodmin General and look at the engine shed connection to the platform line.

 

Now your questions -

 

1. No - all hand points.  Movements would enter the signalled area at the trap points at Ponts No. 3 with a  ground shunting signal for moves off the run-round loop and another for moves from the direction of points No.5.

 - horizontal red & white stripes) to signal shunting moves allowing them past the main signal solely for shunting purposes.

 

3.  Points 1 (and the trap points I added - but as a dummy to look right and not do anything) worked off one lever. points 2&4 worked off another lever, and points 3 off a third lever - all these levers would be painted black.  Facing point locks (blue lever) would be provided for No1 and No.2 point ends.

 

Your assumption re a platform line starting signal is correct.  The Home Signal would be at the toe of No.1 points with an associated shunting signal to read into the sidings.

 

Hope that helps

Edited by The Stationmaster
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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Mike,

 

Really appreciated, that does help a lot. Just one more thing based on what you said I really am a complete novice at this signalling.

 

Would the Home and Shunting signals be two separate signals on 1 post?

 

Many Thanks,

 

Gary

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As well as the location of signals, you may want to think about the style of signal, as the LBSCR (like most pregrouping companies) had a quite distinctive style. Before about 1900, signals were typically in a slotted post with a lamp set on the post below the arm. After that date, signals were progressively replaced with a combined arm and spectacle plate. Before 1900, the stripe on signals was black (rather than white) and (I think) up until grouping, distant signals were red rather than yellow. Ground signals were rotating disc rather than miniature semaphore.  This is a very brief starter for 10 and there is a bit more on Ian White's website for East Grinstead.  

Most of the components are available from MSE or EBModels.   

I hope that this helps 

Best wishes 

Eric 

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Eric,

 

Your input is very much appreciated.

 

I was planning on getting the parts from EBModels as I have had dealings with Mike in the past. I assume from what you are saying I will want slotted post signals with a black stripe as I can't imagine a small branch line would be high on the list for new signalling.

 

I have seen Ian White's website before although I never taken a proper read of it so I shall head over there later and take a good long read.

 

Gary

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Mike,

 

Really appreciated, that does help a lot. Just one more thing based on what you said I really am a complete novice at this signalling.

 

Would the Home and Shunting signals be two separate signals on 1 post?

 

Many Thanks,

 

Gary

 

Gary,  Without doing a  bit of research into the LB&SCR's ways of doing things I can't give an accurate answer to that one.  I'll do a bit of research tomorrow. 

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Mike,

 

That is very much appreciated. I tried to do a bit of research last night but couldn't work out weather the shunting signal would be mounted on the post or on the ground next to it.

 

Gary

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  • RMweb Gold

Based on last nights suggestions from Mike (Stationmaster) I have cleared off the layout and plonked in some bits to represent signalling. There is a trap point made from the point blade in a peco point that was in such a state it could never be used. this is sitting across where there is currently a barrow crossing. The upright girders represent where I think the Starter and Home/Shunting signal should be and finally the bits of plastic standing up represent the ground signals.

 

I hope I've got this right but will move them if corrected.

 

post-22762-0-94682400-1491914123_thumb.jpg

 

Thanks for looking and the help on this so far has been much appreciated,

 

Gary

post-22762-0-94682400-1491914123_thumb.jpg

Edited by BlueLightning
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  • RMweb Gold

The Home Signal should be on the other side of the line Gary.  Signals were normally to the left of the line to which they applied (but there were exceptions - the platform starter is on the other side to give a view to the Guard and platform staff.

 

Having done a fairly cursory delve I have found - without looking hard - two LBSCR small termini where teh shunting signal for the Home Signal was separate and on the ground,  In my view two examples at small termini are plenty of justification for you doing the same ;)

 

One ground signal is on the wrong place - it should be next to the run-round loop, the one coming out of the yard is in the right place.

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I would say that the home signal should be a wee bit further back from the toe of the first turnout, nearer to the tunnel.  Having said that it would probably have been quite a low post to give better sighting as the driver came out of the tunnel.

 

From the operating point of view, at a small terminus it was standard practice for the home signal to be kept on until the driver had almost come to a stand before being pulled off.  This was to ensure that he had the train fully under control and reduce the risk of running into the buffers.

 

If arriving goods trains are to proceed straight into the loop, then there would be a minaiture arm on a bracket on the home signal to signal this move, the ground signal only being used to control shunting moves.

 

Having said that, I am not familiar with SECR practice.

 

Jim

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  • RMweb Gold

It would be unusual - as far as I have ever been able to trace - for arriving goods trains to run to tehhrun-round loop although it probably happened somewhere.  firstly the platform line gives the longest available length for running round the train and secondly ever Signalling Regulation I have come across among mainline companies would require the points to be set towards the 'main' line (i.e. the platform line) and the points were not permitted to be moved until the train had come to a stand at the Home Signal.

 

The Brighton used worked Distant Signals at some termini (e.g Dyke) so keeping the Home Signal at danger would not really fit with that situation - but then the distant at Hayling Island was fixed at caution.

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks for all your input guys. The reason for the goods to assembled/disassembled in the loop is so that I can bring in a passenger train mid-way through shunting necessitating a loco change due to the loco being unable to run-round and therefore adding a few more moves into my playtime. I realise this may not be prototypical but at the same time if it makes it more prototypical there is no reason the goods couldn't be brought into the platform and then have the loco run-round and shunt it into the loop.

 

And also remember that the posts I have put in are just offcuts of girder I had and do not represent the size the signals will be, it is just a coincidence that they are the same height, I will make the home signal shorter once I have the actual signals.

 

Gary

Edited by BlueLightning
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  • RMweb Gold

Got ready to order parts for the signals and then had a thought.

 

If I adjust the goods to include an initial move into the platform line will I need to add a ground signal for shunting to that line as well?

 

Also I assume the distant being a working signal as per LBSC practice would be worked from the box at Oak Hill and therefore I would need point rodding running into the tunnel. Am I correct about this?

 

Many thanks again,

 

Gary

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  • RMweb Gold

Got ready to order parts for the signals and then had a thought.

 

If I adjust the goods to include an initial move into the platform line will I need to add a ground signal for shunting to that line as well?

 

Also I assume the distant being a working signal as per LBSC practice would be worked from the box at Oak Hill and therefore I would need point rodding running into the tunnel. Am I correct about this?

 

Many thanks again,

 

Gary

 

Question 1 (additional ground signal) - no.  Many moves back then were unsignalled and in some cases the Home Signal might have been used although I think a handsignal from the signalbox to be more likely.

 

Question 2.  No.  Signals were worked by wires, points were worked by rodding.  So there would be a single signal wire heading off into the tunnel but no rodding.

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