Cobalt ip motors with Dynamis

[kendo]

Having had a small shunting layout for several years , on which I have used a Bachmann Dynamis controller and changed my points by hand, I decided to invest a little of my retirement pension pay-out on a larger layout.

Having acquired 24 live frog turnouts and two boxes of the latest Cobalt ip digital motors I am faced with an apparently insurmountable problem.  The Cobalts have come with a self-centering function active by default.  In order to allocate accessory addresses when they have been installed, the self-centering needs to be turned off using a code on your DCC controller.  DCC Concepts, in their wisdom, have chosen the code 198.

Owners of Dynamis systems will immediately realise the problem here.  Their handsets only have 100 accessory addresses numbered 001 to 100.  Nothing higher can be entered. Therefore the self-centering cannot be turned off and a suitable operating address cannot be allocated to the turnout.  As far as DCC control is concerned the Cobalts are useless to Dynamis users.

Not being very technically minded I assume the code DCC Concepts selected is an arbitrary one.  Could it not have been 001 or some similarly low number which every DCC controller on the planet would be guaranteed access to?

It seems to me DCC Concepts have tripped up on this one for a lack of research on the specifications of the various DCC controllers available to their potential customers.  In the words of the infamous Jeremy Clarkson - " How hard would that have been? "

 

I suggest my fellow Dynamis users give the Cobalt motors a miss unless you want to wire them up for 12v DC use, which is entirely possible, but rather defeats to purpose of DCC control.

[traction]

I think you should have contacted Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts first and asked if there is anything he could do for you.

Straight on here to say don't buy them is a bit off IMHO.

 

Buying TWO boxes of Cobalts isn't cheap I would have read up on everything before purchase to make sure all worked as planned.

Where did you buy them from, they might be able to turn the self centering off for you.

 

Cheer

 

Ian

[kendo]

Hi Ian,  You are correct in that two boxes of Cobalt motors are not cheap.  Call me old fashioned but I assumed that if a point motor is advertised for use under DCC control my DCC controller would be able to operate it, isn't DCC supposed to be a universal system? 

 

I have been in contact with Hattons of Liverpool who supplied them and still await a reply. 

 

There are issues even if they can be returned to have the self-centering switched off in that - a) they will then be physically more difficult to install - an unfair discrimination against Dynamis users,  b) another function under code 199 - to be able to reverse the direction of movement-  will probably still be unuseable to me ( unless the units can be recoded entirely, which I presume would entail returning them to the factory which I believe is in Australia ),  and c) it is a pain in the neck to have to repackage things up and send them back when it could and should have been avoided because of manufacturers who have not done their homework.

 

I think my comments are quite valid at this stage and are meant as a warning to anyone who is like me and may order them without realising their shortcomings in regard to the Dynamis system as nothing in the adverts says they are not compatible with Dynamis systems - which at this point in time they are not.

 

If the problem can be solved I will immediately update this thread to that effect - I am not a troll!   In my long experience as a consumer I have found there is nothing like bad publicity to get manufacturers to fix their mistakes quickly and I hope I will be able to report good news in due course, but until then my comments stand.  Magazine reviewers often pass adverse comment on new products and they haven't shelled out the cash for them as I have and some other Dynamis user might well do before this gets sorted.

 

Regards

Kendo

[traction]

I agree with what you are saying, but again, have you contacted DCC Concepts as well?

It's all well and good posting on here but they may never see it so how can anything be put right?

 

I would have contacted Hattons as you have done as that is where you bought them from, and just returned them as unusable.

I would then have contacted DCC Concepts to tell them what had happened and the loss to them unless they can come up with a solution.

If no response from DCC concepts then I agree come on here telling people to be wary is great, but in fairness I think contacting the manufacturer first would have been better, IMHO.

 

I only have the Cobalt Digital (NOT IP) and they don't have the self centering option and to centre them I use a 9v ( PP3) battery, to reverse them I swap the wires over, no issue at all.

 

Having met Richard at exhibitions I'm sure he will be in touch with you if you have contacted him, you don't say if you have or not.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[amdaley]

I can understand your frustration but I would agree that to send Richard Johnson a message would be the way to go.

He is very helpful & will always stand over his products.

Hattons have an online chat that I have found really helpful if I'm looking for a quick answer.

Edited January 25, 2016 by amdaley

[Junctionmad]

as a last resort, buying a SPROG2 so as to programme the cobalts may be a solution 

[Tony_S]

DCC Concepts have a website. On it the user guide for the Cobalt IP clearly states that you have to use 197-199 for self centre or reverse throw operations.

 

The Cobalt manual is one of the better written instruction sheets I have seen.

 

The Dynamis manual states that it can only address accessory devices up to 100. All the information was there before you purchased. The Cobalt device is fairly new, the Dynamis has been around for a while, ( it was my first DCC purchase) . "Now call me old fashioned" but before parting with money I would have read the manuals.

 

Tony

[two tone green]

Yep, RTFM

[kendo]

I am  obviously from a different generation to a lot of the people posting on here.  I am 65 years old and in my lifetime I have bought several new cars.  I never felt it necessary to buy the Haynes manual in advance to check that every system on the car complied with UK construction and use regulations, I took it for granted they should not be sold if they did not. 

 

Why should I have to trawl through the internet to read the instructions in advance before buying point motors that purport to be DCC controllable and do not, in the advertising, specify any particular DCC system as incompatible?.  I never did that before buying the Bachmann Dynamis controller and it did what I expected it to straight out of the box.

 

I have asked Hattons of Liverpool for assistance as they are the supplier and the first port of call for dissatisfied customers under retail law is the retailer not the manufacturer.  I presume they are in contact with DCC Concepts for advice and the fact there has been no immediate response leads me to believe there is unlikely to be a quick resolution.  I still think DCC Concepts have made an error here but discussing it privately with them will not prevent other Dynamis users making the same assumption I did and coming a cropper, so that is why, in the meantime,  I felt it right to point out this problem to other Dynamis users via a thread under DDC Topics. 

[tender]

 I never did that before buying the Bachmann Dynamis controller and it did what I expected it to straight out of the box.

 

 

 

But it doesn't, maybe you should also contact Bachmann for selling you a product incapable of addressing the full range of accessory addresses, or buy a SPROG as suggested by Junctionmad.

[Nigelcliffe]

I think the advice to Kendo is to either return the motors to the retailer for refund under the distance selling regulations, or purchase a device which will allow their setup.   I doubt a "fix" (other than exchange for a different device) will be forthcoming as the motor/decoders do what they were designed to do.   The Sprog mentioned is probably the cheapest option for an alternative setup device. 

 

Explaining the shortcomings of the Dynamis is useful, but I don't think blame can be pointed at DCC Concepts for lack of facilities in the Bachmann product.

 

 

- Nigel

[kendo]

To all those who have responded  - it is apparent to me that many of you hold DCC Concepts in high regard, and far be it from me to spoil their reputation, but I have a reputation for telling things how they are.  The facts here are these.

 

A company has produced a DCC accessory and advertised it as such.  My DCC controller has been on sale for well over five years and I had no idea what the maximum number of accessory addresses of DCC is, I have never had cause to find out, presuming like USB equipment for computers it is all "plug and play".  In fact I have just researched the recently released Dynamis Ultima and see it still has the same 100 accessory address limit as my original version.

 

If I was marketing such a product, and therefore much more tech savvy than I actually am, I think I would first of all check to make sure it would be compatible with as many makes of DCC controller on the market as possible.  I would not assume that they all have the same range of addresses, however many that might be,  and arbitrarily allocate an access code that was beyond the range of some well known brand of controller.

As some of you have pointed out the instructions for Dynamis are available on the Web.  Manufacturers have as much access to that information as potential customers, probably more so.  (My poor brother-in-law lives on a farm in rural Suffolk where he still cannot get a Broadband connection and mobile phone reception is abysmal, so his opportunity to research products he sees advertised in papers and magazines is pretty well non-existant.)

 

I appreciate the helpful suggestions like using a SPROG, (forgive me I have yet to look that up - to someone of my age sprogs is military slang for your children).  If that is all it takes then perhaps DCC Concepts may offer to take the motors back and recode them, time will tell, so there is no point in anyone else telling me it is my fault I am in this situation because I trusted an apparently reputable company to be clear in its advertising and not expect me to be a technical wizard.  The appeal of DCC to me was the ease of wiring things up and having a hand held controller instead of miles of wiring and a bank of switches.

 

My purpose in opening this thread was to warn others of the situation I find myself in.  I spent half my working life as a uniformed police officer and if I came across a situation likely to cause danger to someone else, such as a tree about to topple into the road, it was incumbent on me to take appropriate action to warn unsuspecting people, not just ring the council to come and do something about it and swan off.

 

I promise to update you all on the outcome so there really is no need for any further comments.

 

Regards

Kendo

[bgman]

I wish you well in getting this matter sorted out to your satisfaction.

[Brian]

Similar issue for Select owners too then!

 

What happens if the Cobalt ip switch is placed into 'Set' and you just use address 198 as normal?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Kendo, credit to you for flagging up the issue with the Dynamis, v.v. Cobalt ip motors.

It may be of benefit to anyone who may have also walked into this trap.

However, there is no fault on DCC Concepts part as far as I can see.

 

The Dynamis has an unusually limited capability as far as the range of accessory addresses goes, when compared to most other in-production DCC systems.

For example, even the Roco/Fleischmann MultiMaus can handle 1024 accessory addresses.

 

However, as another example, if I'm not mistaken, the train-set market Hornby Select, only allows 38 accessory addresses.

Starter systems and those aimed at a less demanding audience, generally have lower specifications or capability in one or two areas, as in this example.

 

I can imagine that some of the comments above, suggesting should should have done your homework, have irritated or annoyed you; but I shouldn't worry about that.

You should be able to return the products to Hattons as suggested and choose a more appropriate point motor that will work with the Dynamis.

Personally, if it was me, I'd be cheesed off that I'd made the wrong purchase too.

 

 

 

.

[kendo]

Hi people,  the scores are in........

 

Hattons were unable to answer my query and put me in touch with DCC Concepts in Oz.  I exchanged several e-mails with Rand Cooley (despite his location he is actually American) who was very friendly and helpful.

 

The decision to make the setting up codes 197 - 199 was not arbitrary but neither was it technical.  It was made for the convenience of users of the most popular DCC systems who may well have been using all the numbers in the lower regions already.  I have apologised to Rand for suggesting they had not done their homework.

 

The initial batch of ip motors did have the self-centering  ON by default, which did require turning off before an operating address could be set, so my earlier comment, that DCC use by Dynamis users was not possible, was fair comment.  However, to assist Dynamis (and Select) users, subsequent batches are being produced with the motors physically centered at the factory but the self-centering command is OFF by default.  It is no longer necessary for anyone to enter 198, and power off and on again, before setting an operating code, just connect the power and follow your system's instructions and do it. .  (Confusingly the instructions in the box and on the website still say self-centering is On by default)

Obviously it is still not possible to reverse the direction of throw from a Dynamis unit but, hey, half a loaf and all that. Dynamis users will therefore be able to set a code. 

 

The instructions seemed to suggest that having set a code, and moved the motor, self-centering will no longer be available if your system cannot access code 199 to turn it on again.  Not so.  To quote Rand : "You can still put the motors back to centre manually by simply cutting power to the motor mid-run and the arm will be at centre again. So you don't have to be reliant on the 199 function ."

 

So,  my assumption that because every time I put 198 into my handset it instantly reverted to 098 (I knew it would because I had read the instruction book) and the Cobalt instructions appeared to say I needed to use that code before setting an address, I believed I was stumped.

Having been informed by Rand that current batches on the market should have the self-centering OFF by default, I wired up a motor and simply entered a code of my choice and low and behold it worked.

 

If I had read the instructions on the web-site first, as some people so tactfully told me I should have done,  and believed what they appeared to be telling me,  I would not have bought the motors, which it now turns out I can use in DCC mode and they appear a much simpler and economical way of getting slow action motors without the need for separate accessory decoders (I would have needed six) and a 12v DC power supply, in addition to your basic DCC controller.

 

Unfortunately the first motor I accessed and tested quickly began to malfunction. Having described the symptoms to Rand he has informed me I can return  it to Hattons for replacement. Hopefully it is a one off and all the others will be fine - the second one does seem to work brilliantly.  I was concerned that if I tested them all straight away I would not be able to re-centre them for fitting when I have finished the track laying and wiring, but that problem was answered by Rand as above.

 

So, rather like a Shakespeare play, there have been a few twists in the tale but as the old Bard says "All's well that ends well"  and as my boyhood hero, PC George Dixon, used to say "Mind how you go."

 

Regards to all

 

Kendo

[Tony_S]

Really pleased to read that you will be able to use all your motors and Dynamis together.

Best wishes

Tony

[9C85]

I am so glad that kendo has shared his experience on this thread. I too am new to dcc and have purchased a dynamis as it was actually recommended to me by a well known, reputable model railway shop. I also want to use cobalt point motors, controlled by the dynamis.  When I read the start of the thread i was already looking for a plan B, but it looks like I may be able to use them after all, provided I get the latest models. As for RTFM, I am a stickler for reading them (I actually write them for a living), but most people either don't read them at all or only reach for them when they hit a problem.  TBH I am still trying to work whether I need  a decoder between the dynamis and the cobalt or is it simply a case of connection to the bus and the frog? I have contacted dcc concepts on several occasions and I have had a good response, but I am still waiting for info regarding controlling the cobalt from dynamis. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

17 hours ago, 9C85 said:

.... I also want to use cobalt point motors, controlled by the dynamis.......

 

 .....TBH I am still trying to work whether I need  a decoder between the dynamis and the cobalt or is it simply a case of connection to the bus and the frog? .......

 

 

The "Cobalt iP Digital"  version has its own inbuilt accessory decoder, therefore doesn't require connection to any other accessory decoder.

It can be connected to either the track Power Bus or to a separate DCC Accessory Bus .

 

manual here....

https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/owners-manual-cobalt-ip-digital-point-motors/

 

Other versions of the Cobalt point motor will need to be connected and controlled by a separate accessory decoder.

 

The Frog switching arrangement is another thing altogether.

 

.

[Anthony566]

On 08/06/2019 at 20:18, 9C85 said:

I am so glad that kendo has shared his experience on this thread. I too am new to dcc and have purchased a dynamis as it was actually recommended to me by a well known, reputable model railway shop. I also want to use cobalt point motors, controlled by the dynamis.  When I read the start of the thread i was already looking for a plan B, but it looks like I may be able to use them after all, provided I get the latest models. As for RTFM, I am a stickler for reading them (I actually write them for a living), but most people either don't read them at all or only reach for them when they hit a problem.  TBH I am still trying to work whether I need  a decoder between the dynamis and the cobalt or is it simply a case of connection to the bus and the frog? I have contacted dcc concepts on several occasions and I have had a good response, but I am still waiting for info regarding controlling the cobalt from dynamis. 

 

Hi are you up and running ok with your Digital iP point motors now ?

 

Setting these up with the Dynamis is very very easy,  let me know if you need any help.

[9C85]

On 16/06/2019 at 00:30, Anthony566 said:

 

Hi are you up and running ok with your Digital iP point motors now ?

 

Setting these up with the Dynamis is very very easy,  let me know if you need any help.

Thanks a lot.  I am soon to purchase 3 cobalts as a starting point.  I will let you know how I get on.  I did get more information from dcc concepts stating that the latest version has been available for a couple of years, so I should have no problem with the self centering 

[9C85]

On 16/06/2019 at 00:30, Anthony566 said:

 

Hi are you up and running ok with your Digital iP point motors now ?

 

Setting these up with the Dynamis is very very easy,  let me know if you need any help.

Hello Anthony566

 

I purchased 3 Cobalts a couple of weeks ago. I installed the first one last week and eventually got it working with Dynamis, although I am pretty sure it didn't respond when the switch was in the Set position. eventually out of desperation I just reset the switch to Run, selected my accessory number (3 in this case) and pressed the point direction button on the Dynamis... and it works! Although I did wonder if the reason it worked in this mode is because it was the ONLY accessory connected at the time?

Feeling a little more confident, I tried installing another Cobalt tonight, and it has been a nightmare. Mainly due to my sausage fingers and deteriorating eyesight, but also some quality issues with the Cobalts. I was using the exact same installation method as the first one and stuck the motor to the underside of the baseboard using the self adhesive pad. However, when I was 'up top' fine tuning the point blade position, the motor fell to the floor (concrete, garage). There was no external visible damage, so I continued.  I tried programming the motor (as Accessory 2) with the switch in both positions, but no luck. I eventually gave in and tried the third motor. Upon wiring this one, the spring catch on one of the wire terminals jammed open (see attached) I can insert one of the power feeds for the Cobalt into this hole and it will just about hold in place. If I select Accessory 2 on the Dynamis (with the point still in RUN mode) it will throw the point. But I am reluctant to install it under the board with the potentially loose wiring. For my sanity, i checked that Accessory 3 still works for the first point installed. It was hit and miss at times but, as it stands, Accessory 3 throws the point installed on the layout and Accessory 2 throws the motor which is yet to be installed.

I have contacted DCC Concepts to discuss repair/replacement of my motors, I am also contemplating alternative methods of point control.

[Anthony566]

Sounds like you have the process of programming the Cobalts via the Dynamis sorted .. 

 

You might find it easier to program them off the layout then install them.

 

Just remember with the Dynamis you just go to accessories and then scroll to the number you want to program switch the cobalt into set mode then operate the accessorie number you want it to have via the Dynamis  a few times then switch it back to run and it will be addressed.

 

If these are the latest versions then they are centred out of the packet however once you power them up they are no longer centred ....

Easy fix for this is just apply power via a 9v battery to the point motor then remove power from it once it is in the center this way you dont need to mess around with the 198/197 commands.

 

I have been using Cobalts for a long time without any issues.

 

Also make sure when you strip the wire to go into the cobalt you have stripped 10mm to push into the conector otherwise you may not have a good conection if they are to short.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Anthony566

[newbryford]

10 hours ago, Anthony566 said:

Sounds like you have the process of programming the Cobalts via the Dynamis sorted .. 

 

You might find it easier to program them off the layout then install them.

 

Just remember with the Dynamis you just go to accessories and then scroll to the number you want to program switch the cobalt into set mode then operate the accessorie number you want it to have via the Dynamis  a few times then switch it back to run and it will be addressed.

 

If these are the latest versions then they are centred out of the packet however once you power them up they are no longer centred ....

Easy fix for this is just apply power via a 9v battery to the point motor then remove power from it once it is in the center this way you dont need to mess around with the 198/197 commands.

 

 

Whilst the 9v battery is good to centre an analog motor, the same won't work with a Digital IP

It needs a command - either from the DCC - or via the manual input PBS terminals - you can power it with a 9v battery, but connect pushbuttons for manual override.

Two PBS across 7-8 and 8-9 for two-way control or just one PB across 7 and 9 will toggle it in different directions.