PECO Announces Bullhead Track for OO

[gismorail]

I must have a word with Samsung for selling mobile phones that are better than the one I bought last year. Not to mention the latest television, car, vacuum cleaners etc that are also available. I think it is called progress.

;-)

Congratulations to Peco for listening to the railway modellers.

And if you've just had your new Samsung mobile stolen it's suddenly become 'hot property' 

[Derekstuart]

Clive, there are countless people using RTL products on RMW that have produced stunning results. By stating that 00 gauge or the unusual chair detail is a compromise does not mean that people are disrespecting your work or anyone else's. EVERY system has its good and bad points and this is no exception.

What I like about this thread is all the experts who keep telling us mere ready to lay modellers that every thing is wrong and we should be doing so and so. Let us see the product in the shops and then decide, because it is us mere ready to lay modellers who will be buying it.

 

I can't recall off the top of my head which type of polymer is used by Peco but it will be a vinyl derivative, in which case it will use some by-products of oil distillation as well as methyl alcohol. (for more details ask a chemist).

 

However, the raw materials count for a low percentage of most manufactured product- the production process, overheads, research and development etc will count for a far bigger percentage of the costs. So if, for example, the raw material costs 10% of the vat-net price and it increases by say 20% then this results in a 2% overall increase in costs to the manufacturer. Conversely that same 20% will in effect mean that exports are 20% cheaper- which can be used to increase profits by 20% of total price or the manufacturer can drop its prices by 1-19% to increase market share. 20% overall is going to be better than 2% for a manufacturer.

 

You aren't george osborne under an alias are you?

Where do their raw materials come from? If from overseas their costs will increase, and they will have to be passed on in the form of increased prices (again economics).

[Joseph_Pestell]

I must have a word with Samsung for selling mobile phones that are better than the one I bought last year. Not to mention the latest television, car, vacuum cleaners etc that are also available. I think it is called progress.

;-)

Congratulations to Peco for listening to the railway modellers.

I'm not that convinced that this year's Samsung phones are an improvement on what went before.

[hayfield]

C&L Flexitrack is probably about as close as it's possible to get in RTL... it certainly looks like the track I saw today at various locations along the MML, and would be my choice in preference to the Peco half chaired, half clipped track.

 

I knocked this pic up from images posted on this thread by Mikkel from 5 years ago.  Hope you don't mind me reusing your pics,Mikkel

 

C&L bullhead.jpg

 

Top shows the inner, two bolt side of the chair and the lower shows the outer single bolt side of the chair.  Of all the chaired RTL tracks I've looked at, this is the closest to the effect I would like.

 

But points, ay - there's the rub...

 

Peco is for mass market and aimed at a wide range of users, the other two aspects are that it must be robust and be able to cater for a wide range of wheels within the tolerance margins that exist in 00 gauge.

 

C&L and now we must include Exactoscale aim for a slightly different market, strangely enough the Exactoscale product is nearer to Peco in durability, cost is always bought up you only buy it once and for the average home layout ( flexi track) on the scenic section is less than a modern loco 

 

Yes, it very much looks the part but it's a somewhat unfair comparison as the two track types are really aimed at different market sectors. C&L is more expensive and requires hand built points, also more expensive even if built yourself, and requires recent wheel standards. Peco is mass market with fixed, some say compromised, geometry, but universal in terms of wheel standards. DCC may lie somewhere in the middle as points are promised.

 

Peco's cost base is totally different to C&L, the design and manufacture of the tools along with the manufacture of the goods are all in house and the larger bulk buying of materials further reduces costs, further more moving from a man in a shed to having premises and staff increases overheads

 

It is good for the hobby that the 2 systems are both slightly different but compatible

 

Ready to run turnouts and crossings have always been an issue, it is a great pity that a simple system (excluding SMP's copperclad range) for home build at a reasonable cost

 

Having said that the press release in the Railway Modeller hints strongly a track system will follow, I guess that Peco will aim at the mass market and without seeing DCC's product Richards posts give the impression of a product aimed at the fine scale market.

[gr.king]

Congratulations to Peco for listening to the railway modellers.

 

Although without wishing to be too harsh to a firm that now appears to be acting in a helpful way, we might want to add "at last" to Colin's words.....

[Captain Kernow]

Look at it the other way, the inner chair is raised till it just clears the max size RP25 or DOGA flange. you could not run Lima, Mainline, early Bachmann, and you would take pot luck with Hornby's various wheel flange sizes, as to whether anything would run. Even Romford driver flanges from the past would foul.

 

Peco simply cannot risk making something that does not work correctly first time. I suspect that once ballasted into place, and suitably painted to weather it, the inner chairs will not "show", the overall effect is of the raised chaired track, and the wider sleeper spacing, but then it also demands RTR pointwork to match.

Stephen

I have used C&L bullhead, also SMP (versions 1 and 2) on my OO layouts, and the one annoying issue with C&L is the fact that certain Bachmann steam loco flanges foul the inner chairs, whereas others do not.

 

Haven't come across the problem with (the relatively few) Hornby locos I have running on their original chassis, and certainly not with substitute wheels, such as RP25 Romford/Markits or Gibson etc.

 

Some of the locos that caused a problem were the Bachmann WD 2-8-0 (just the bogie and tender wheels, not the driving wheels), the LMS 'Crab' 2-6-0 (all wheels, including driving wheels), and a similar story to the 'Crab' with the BR Standard Class 5 4-6-0.

 

This was all an issue for me some 8 - 9 years ago, and the first loco to be dealt with was the WD 2-8-0, which had replacement bogie and tender wheels fitted, and it now runs very happily. I got to the stage of buying replacement complete Gibson wheelsets (in OO, and that caused a raised eyebrow on the part of Gibsons, until I explained why) for the Crab and BR Standard Class 5, but in the end other projects took priority and the locos were eventually sold on.

[coachmann]

The last few years of laying and ripping up r-t-p flexible tracks has quite naturally lead me to a few conclusions. The easiest to lay by some headway was Peco Streamline because the rail is rigidly held in the nylon-ish plastic  sleeper base. This means it holds its form when perfectly straight and when curved to a reasonable radius and track pins are easily pushed through the sleepers to tack it down temporarily. Cutting the rail, using it in very short lengths and soldering to it was also a doddle. If Peco's new bullhead track has the same characteristics then it would have been my first choice had I continued modelling in 00 gauge.

 

I am not one for faffing about if I can find easier ways of doing things and so my conclusions should be taken in this light. In other words, I could never be a finescale modeller when to comes to track, which is why I ever delved into EM gauge. For me, an easy lay track that looks right is all I ever wanted. Peco appears to be about to tick that box, but thin sleeper track still has a place in goods and loco yards etc.

Edited October 12, 2016 by coachmann

[Coryton]

I can't recall off the top of my head which type of polymer is used by Peco but it will be a vinyl derivative, in which case it will use some by-products of oil distillation as well as methyl alcohol. (for more details ask a chemist).

 

However, the raw materials count for a low percentage of most manufactured product- the production process, overheads, research and development etc will count for a far bigger percentage of the costs. So if, for example, the raw material costs 10% of the vat-net price and it increases by say 20% then this results in a 2% overall increase in costs to the manufacturer. Conversely that same 20% will in effect mean that exports are 20% cheaper- which can be used to increase profits by 20% of total price or the manufacturer can drop its prices by 1-19% to increase market share. 20% overall is going to be better than 2% for a manufacturer.

 

You aren't george osborne under an alias are you?

 

Not quite as simple as that.

 

The fall in the pound doesn't just affect raw materials.

 

It increases the price of oil and therefore transport costs - raw products in, finished product out.

 

Likewise other expenses are likely to go up (lighting the offices and factory, running and replacing machines, buying stationary etc. etc. etc.)

 

Then maybe we get inflation and wages go up...

[Derekstuart]

Sorry. I had forgotten about all of that. We are all doomed and might as well go live in caves.

 

I assume the Chinese and Germans will also be doing the same, given their deliberate policy of currency devaluation.

Not quite as simple as that.

 

The fall in the pound doesn't just affect raw materials.

 

It increases the price of oil and therefore transport costs - raw products in, finished product out.

 

Likewise other expenses are likely to go up (lighting the offices and factory, running and replacing machines, buying stationary etc. etc. etc.)

 

Then maybe we get inflation and wages go up...

[Coryton]

Sorry. I had forgotten about all of that. We are all doomed and might as well go live in caves.

 

I assume the Chinese and Germans will also be doing the same, given their deliberate policy of currency devaluation.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing that a low pound isn't good for anything manufactured in the UK. It's just not as simple as saying that the price rise is limited to the direct increased costs of the raw ingredients.

[Derekstuart]

No, it isn't just as simple as that and I didn't think it was. But I didn't realise that it was going to be an in-depth discussion about International macro economics- I am normally moaned at for putting too much detail in.

 

As for your suggestion/ prediction that we will see inflation, I would agree with you on that. We have two very serious problems combining- the ridiculous amounts of 'quantitative easing'- which always results in high inflation (using Argentina and Zimbabwe as good examples- you could always consider Germany post WW1) and a drop in the relative value of Sterling against other currencies (itself caused primarily by that same quantitative easing) which causes 'imported inflation'. If I was a fan of cliches I would say it is a near 'perfect storm'. Fortunately we have avoided the worst case scenario so far as our economy is starting to grow again (fastest in the G7/ developed World according to IMF)- if that slides back we will see stagnated inflation, which is what caused our big problems in the 1970s.

 

Of course, I am far more worried about the eurozone collapsing under its 15 trillion debt (to put into perspective that is equivalent to around 6-7 YEARS of British GDP). The ez does have stagnated inflation and that kills economies.

 

I think we've hijacked this thread enough though (sorry Peco fans). I am happy to carry this on in a new thread or by PM- I'm sure you can teach me all about economics and correct my mis-understandings, which I would greatly appreciate.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing that a low pound isn't good for anything manufactured in the UK. It's just not as simple as saying that the price rise is limited to the direct increased costs of the raw ingredients.

 

EDIT: Given the responses and who has 'liked' this comment, can I point out that the suggestion that Mr C can teach me anything about economics was very much sarcastic; not intended offensively, just sarcastically.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Godfrey Glyn]

I was down in Seaton this morning and popped over to Beer and the shop at Peco. I cheekily asked if I could have a box of the new track and was told, very politely, that I was premature. However they had a sample of the new track behind the counter - about 25 cm long so I could have look at the real thing. I have to say I was impressed, the arrangement of the linkage along the web gives it excellent flexibility. I was told that the launch is imminent so like the rest of you I think we be able to see it at Warley. They have moulded the name underneath some of the sleepers which should make identification even easier if you have pile of different types. They seemed very sure of points coming along and I just hope that they adopt the configuration of their code 83 range.

 

It was Coachman I think who has used them on one of his layouts and I personally think they give a much better flow along the track. As someone who doesn't want to spend a lot of time building track I am awaiting this development with some enthusiasm and hope it goes well for them

 

All the best

Godfrey

[bertiedog]

I'm not that convinced that this year's Samsung phones are an improvement on what went before.

Considering todays announcement of total withdrawal of the Samsung 7, with no idea what is causing the fires so far, that is not what is happening.........

Stephen

[bertiedog]

I very much feel that a change to the geometry of the code 83 US NMRA compatible range would not be a good idea, it would leave incompatible items from the existing code 75 range, and Peco are clear that it will be totally compatible. The whole geometry of the streamline range is odd, but it works for the majority, who use the guides and templates to make the design, rather than design a track layout and then expect the RTR track to fit.

 

US layouts are larger, longer points can be used, much more realistic, but the points do not suit cramped layouts.

 

Warley, is that a National show?... being house bound I have not kept up with MRCs that much, and if makers rely too much on using such shows to show products, local shop customers miss out quite a bit, which is why I rely on RMweb for news.

[Junctionmad]

I think the issue will boil down to points , will PECO just be a rehash of the existing designs with the new timbering , or will they move more upmarket.  Id be surprised  if they just duplicated the existing code 75 HO range , people are not going to mix the systems in visible scenic areas anyway 

 

​DCC have stated the points will one close to finescale 00 , however that remains to be seen 

 

​The web structure on the PECO  is the same as DCC and lends itself to forming nice curves, unlike the exactoscale fasttrack  bases that require major web surgery to get around corners 

 

I think  the market will be quite niche and I suspect PECO are acting as much strategically as economically  , there will be many OO modellers, that doesnt really care that much about track ( and dont care about signalling etc etc ) happily continue with HO code 75 , in fact in my club, there are many fans of code 100. 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Junctionmad

[Colin_McLeod]

I'm not that convinced that this year's Samsung phones are an improvement on what went before.

A classic case of using a bad example. I should have said that Dell now produce better computers.

[martin_wynne]

I find the exact wording in the Railway Modeller very interesting. It would seem that Peco do indeed read what gets posted here and elsewhere:

 

The new track features what the manufacturer describes as
"genuine bullhead rail section, made from nickel silver for optimum
electrical conductivity and ease of soldering."
The bullhead track has been designed to be fully compatible
with existing Peco 00 gauge code 75 track. New rail joiners are
being developed which will include a representation of the fishplate
with bolt head detail.
The imminent release of the plain track will lead many modellers
to speculate whether Peco will follow this with bullhead pointwork.
Although no official announcement has yet been made, a Peco
spokesman confirmed that points will "almost certainly follow."

 

"genuine bullhead rail section" -- have they back-tracked on their previous published design showing their narrow-foot flat-bottom rail? We did mention that we had noticed it.

 

nickel-silver for "ease of soldering" -- have they noticed the comments here about DCC Concepts stainless steel rail?

 

rail joiners with "bolt head detail" -- that is surely in response to the same from DCC Concepts. And almost certainly Peco will know that 99.99% of fishplates in the UK have 4 bolts, not 6.

 

What is still amusing after all these years is the fiction that RM and Peco are not one and the same company.

 

Martin.

[BlackRat]

If you mention the RM and Peco in the same sentence......shouldn't that be PECO?

Edited October 13, 2016 by BlackRat

[Joseph_Pestell]

If you mention the RM and Peco in the same sentence......shouldn't that be PECO?

Not sure what you are getting at here. If going for acronyms all round, it would be PPPCo not PECO.

[BlackRat]

Not sure what you are getting at here. If going for acronyms all round, it would be PPPCo not PECO.

You're not a long time reader of the RM then

[gr.king]

I remember well the time when PECO always appeared in capital letters.

 

Did I not mention a page or two back that my impression based on the limited information in the latest picture was not one of narrow-footed FB rail?

[martin_wynne]

Did I not mention a page or two back that my impression based on the limited information in the latest picture was not one of narrow-footed FB rail?

 

The answer is no, you didn't not mention it.

[BlackRat]

The answer is no, you didn't not mention it.

#1171

[Joseph_Pestell]

You're not a long time reader of the RM then

Since 1960 - only 56 years. I had forgotten about their habit of capitalising their sister company's name.

[Tom J]

Since 1960 - only 56 years. I had forgotten about their habit of capitalising their sister company's name.

 

 

As a kid I always used to notice that. Generally in 'Junior Modeller' where 'track is a mixture of PECO and Hornby'. I felt it was very partisan and unfair, whilst not thinking through the commercial connections!