Castle Aching

[uax6]

I think Sir will find that for pre 1900 vehicles breaks is the correct way of spelling what we call brakes....

 

 

Andy G

[Donw]

I think Sir will find that for pre 1900 vehicles breaks is the correct way of spelling what we call brakes....

 

 

Andy G

 

And Waggons with two Gs.  

Don

[BG John]

I think Sir will find that for pre 1900 vehicles breaks is the correct way of spelling what we call brakes....

 

 

Andy G

As seen in post 1334, although it's a bit blurred being a crop of a scanned photo!

[Edwardian]

Thanks all.

 

Gary, I have a feeling that I might already have one of those Meakins wagons!

 

One of the striking things about the c.1905 period is that the 'classic' pre-Grouping wagon liveries, i.e. with the larger company initials, are only just coming in, e.g. 1903 for GER, 1904 for GWR.  As a result, the large initials are likely to be found on only the newest wagons, wagon repaints not being a high priority.

 

This will give 1905 a very different look.

 

Great resources for GER information are the GERS website (I really must join) and the Basilica Fields site (https://basilicafields.wordpress.com).  Basilica Fields has a picture of a GE diagram 17 5-plank open general merchandise wagon.  These were built between 1893 and 1903, so the wagon is  a 'must' for CA.  The picture shows one of the 1901 batch freshly painted with the large  'G E' in 1910.  The caption states that this wagon lasted 8 years before a repaint. I suspect that was not untypical.

 

More typical of the appearance of GE wagons c.1905 is probably the picture of the diagram 16 wagon (built c.1887-1893).  This picture (below) is taken from the Basilica Fields site, where it is captioned as a public domain image.  It shows the small lettering that I feel would be more appropriate for 1905.  It also shows just the sort of square grease axle boxes that Simon mentions, and I take his point that really any other type of axle-box can be readily replaced by a home-made representation of this square grease type.

 

GE diagrams, 16 and 17 5 planks and diagram 16's non-diagram 4 plank predecessor are all 9'6" w/b and 15' over the headstocks.  I assume that kit u/f could have two 1mm slithers inserted either side of the 'V' hanger.  

 

We are, of course, in pre-common user days, so company wagons must be returned to their home territories within 5 days.  The presence of a foreign wagon is deliberate, for a purpose, and not random as it would be during war-time pooling and post-war common user arrangements.

 

We discussed several pages back that a load of Welsh slate is appropriate (pretty much anywhere in the country from the 1860s onward, I would imagine), so I think the Cambrian Kits Cambrian dropside is a clear choice.  Thanks, Chris, for reminding me that Quarryscapes does the transfers. 

 

Turning the Great Western, I need a plausible reason/load for the Coopercraft kit just ordered.  I imagine that a generic open merchandise wagon from a large pre-Grouping company such as the GW or LNWR could be justified almost anywhere, and not just on its own metals or that of its neighbours, but, pre-common user era wagons need a story behind their movements.

 

As to the wagon itself, when I dusted off my Atkins, Beard and Tourret I bore in mind John's comments about the uncertainty concerning the date livery changed from red to dark grey.  There is a useful summary of the scant evidence here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagonred.html.  This article quotes  Atkins, Beard and Tourret as dating the change to 1898, but this is originally a 1975 work, and my combined edition was updated in 1998.  As John suggests, the debate has moved on since then, with the alternative school of thought suggesting that 1904, the date of the change to big letters, was the time grey was introduced.

 

Now, this is a particular dilemma for the Coopercraft O5 4-plank if, as I suggested, it is to be completed in 'as built' condition.  The diagram was introduced in 1902, I believe.  It featured cast iron plates in lieu of painted initials and numbers.  At 1905 it is hardly likely that such a new wagon would have been repainted in the 1904 large-letter scheme.

 

So, the question is, in 1902 would a new wagon have been out-shopped in red or grey?  it seems that it is not possible to be sure. 

 

As John points out, however, the O5 is very similar to its non-diagrammed predecessors.  The main difference is that the pre-O5 wagons were built with conventional brake levers.  The O5s have the, then new, characteristic DCI brake. Back-dating an O5 would seem to be a fairly straightforward exercise.

 

This gives me the option of depicting a red wagon built in the 1890s.  At p276, plate 350, of Atkins et al, we find pre-diagram 10 Ton 4 plank open no. 64493 built to lot 122 in 1895.  It sports the conventional brake handle, Simon's square grease axle-boxes and bears the small 'G. W. R.', not cast plates.  The initials are on the right side, a feature standardised c.1893. As the earliest date suggested for the grey livery is 1896, and Atkins et al has the change at "about" 1898, it seems safe to conclude that I am here looking at a picture of a red wagon.  The picture is dated 1901. It seems safe to assume no repaint to the 1904 scheme by 1905, so I would be on fairly safe ground if I ran this red wagon in 1905.

 

The next plate depicts an even earlier version of the type, no. 44600, from lot 442 of 1888.  This wagon also sports square grease boxes.  Again, no cast plates.  This time the company initials are on the left, which tends to suggest they were applied pre c.1893.  As the wagon itself would hardly have been repainted between construction in 1888 and 1893, the photograph would appear to show the original, red, livery of 1888, notwithstanding that the photograph is dated 1902, some 14 years later!

 

Caley Jim is quite right to point out that I have a wide degree of latitude in depicting the WNR's own wagons.  One thought that occurs, if the westward extension forks to the coast to Wolfingham, where it was suggested there is a coal wharf, the means of bringing coal into the area in preference to rail, the WNRmight be expected to have a string of its own mineral opens to cater for the traffic, in addition to the wagons of local coal merchants.  If this were the case, there seems no good reason why, in running coal trains from the coast on its own metals, the WNR  of 1905 should not still be using dumb-buffered wagons for the task.

 

Finally, I have just seen Andy G's response.  I am indebted to him for the information that Wizard/51L cast axle-guards will take bearings.  His sounds like a plan! 

 

 

 

[Donw]

The Coal would very likely be shipped by Collier down from the North East ( It was shipped like that down to Kingswear for the Torbay GAs works). So there would be waggons to collect it. However someone would have to order enough for a ship load. I think this would have to be a large dealer supplying either to a number of smaller distributors or acting as a distributor themselves. I cannot see the railway ordering that much. 

Don

[Nearholmer]

DonW

 

That's how I was envisaging it too - a coal factor or largish merchant taking a shipment, then distributing locally.

 

Will need to read-up on the sizes of coastal colliers. They weren't at all big by modern standards. Then can work out what tonnage and volume of coal we are talking about, and how long a shipment might last, given average consumption rates and a wild guess at the local population.

 

The Lynton & Barnstaple is a good reference for this topic, because it used to deal with "coal rushes" when a collier arrived at Pilton Wharf and the contents had to be distributed as quickly as possible.

 

We might need to create a bit of a storage yard for coal at Wolfingham Harbour.

 

Kevin

 

Edit: two ranging shots on the size of coastal colliers: in the early C19th, the average lading of a Tyne Collier was "220 london Chaldrons", which runs out to c300 tonnes; SS Bengrove, a modern collier, torpedoed off Ilfracombe in 1915 had a cargo of 5000 Tons.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Thanks, both.

 

The Coal would very likely be shipped by Collier down from the North East ( It was shipped like that down to Kingswear for the Torbay GAs works). So there would be waggons to collect it.

 

Agreed, that is what I had envisaged.

 

 

someone would have to order enough for a ship load. I think this would have to be a large dealer supplying either to a number of smaller distributors or acting as a distributor themselves. I cannot see the railway ordering that much. 

 

 

 

DonW

That's how I was envisaging it too - a coal factor or largish merchant taking a shipment, then distributing locally.
 

 

The railway would need some coal - to heat its premises and for loco coal.  I had thought that the railway might also be contracted to deliver coal to other users, e.g. Achingham Gas Works, Maltings, Breweries etc

 

As to distribution generally, I had assumed local coal merchants each serving/competing in 3 or 4 local place, so as to provide some PO variety.

 

A coal factor I had failed to consider.  Could one be introduced in addition to smaller local merchants?

 

 

Will need to read-up on the sizes of coastal colliers. They weren't at all big by modern standards. Then can work out what tonnage and volume of coal we are talking about, and how long a shipment might last, given average consumption rates and a wild guess at the local population size. ( Here is a start, although this was a modern vessel, so maybe bigger than what we should be thinking of http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/44/wall-socket-protectors.cfm?type=pdf )

 

 

Agreed.

 

The link to socket protectors does perplex me, however.  Usually I can follow Kevin's admirable chain of reasoning, but ...

 

We should have Mr Masefield's dirty little coaster.

 

A slightly later (1913) coastal collier is pictured below.  She is not that large, perhaps 150-180' in length. It cannot be beyond the bounds of research to identify the types operating out of NE ports at the turn of the Century. Perhaps plans?!? 

 

 

The Lynton & Barnstaple is a good reference for this topic, because it used to deal with "coal rushes" when a collier arrived at Pilton Wharf and the contents had to be distributed as quickly as possible.

We might need to create a bit of a storage yard for coal at Wolfingham Harbour.

Kevin

 

A pertinent and interesting example, thanks.

 

 

We might need to create a bit of a storage yard for coal at Wolfingham Harbour.

 

 

That would seem reasonable.

 

Back to wagon building:

 

- Don, I will look at that link to building method, thank you.  EDIT: Very impressive and food for thought.

 

- Andy G - I have long felt the need for a squarker in my life.  I would be surprised if no one made such a thing, but, if not, presumably one can fashion such a thing from another tool.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a squarker/groove making thing?

 

EDIT: This? https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=1622&name=plastic-cutter-scrawker&Itemid=189&category_pathway=1063

 

EDIT: Great Western wagon livery.  Co-incidentally this was posted yesterday: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113035-more-pre-grouping-wagons-in-4mm/&do=findComment&comment=2375075.  See post 15.

 

Now I think Compound2632 can justify producing an O4 in red; he is probably correct to observe that red is correct on the balance of probabilities. His observation that "It’s entirely possible that many/most/all of these wagons emerged from Swindon after the adoption of the 25” G W lettering, despite the lot authorisation dates" is interesting. 

 

I think I will stick to the idea of back-dating the kit to the 1895 example I mentioned as a neat way to side step both the envisaged and the un-envisaged uncertainties as to the 'as built' appearance of the O5.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Edwardian

[MickRalph]

The tool is also called a "Skrawker" and Olfa make them (see the third and fourth items in the link).  You can probably find them in a good model shop.  Squires Tools also sell them (see page 188).  I wouldn't be without mine, which is the OLFA PLASTIC CUTTER P-450 in the Squires catalogue.  I think that Iain Rice suggested grinding one up from an old hacksaw blade.

 

Another useful tool for scribing plasticard (planks etc) is a scraperboard knife, as suggested in MRJ by Geoff Kent in his series on coach-building.  They are sold by the likes of Eileens Emporium and Hobby Holidays (and craft shops).

 

BTW a fascinating thread.

 

Mick

 

Edited to add the reference to scraperboard tools.

 

 

- Anfy G - I have long felt the need for a squarker in my life.  I would be surprised if no one made such a thing, but, if not, presumably one can fashion such a thing from another tool.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a squarker/groove making thing?

Edited July 21, 2016 by MickRalph

[Nearholmer]

I should really be doing "day job" research, not this, so quickly:

 

- I've got rid of the socket link, it was meant to be a link to something else entirely!

 

- copy below from a 1919 text explaining all those confusing ways of measuring ships that only naval architects properly understand. This is probably talking about ocean going vessels, so coasters I guess somewhat smaller.

 

- need to account for the nature of our harbour, which I'm thinking is small, shallow and muddy, so probably capable only of receiving the smaller vessels, and silting-up as we speak.

 

- even the 'big' ships were small. SS Bengrove, which I mentioned before was not much over 100ft long x 50ft wide, so 'our' ships might be not much more than, say, 60 or 70ft long, which I think puts them with a Clyde Puffer.

 

- one large merchant in an area probably acting as factor to smaller merchants, this seems to have been common, and 'the big man' seems often to have dealt in feed, seed, etc too, becoming a bit of a power in the district.

 

Kevin

[joppyuk1]

My maternal grandfather was a stocker on submarines either during or just after the first world war. K class I think they were. Doesn't sound like a good idea!!

 

Edit to add link.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

As an aside, the K class submarines were unique, steam powered on the surface with collapsible funnels. They were more of a danger to themselves than any enemy, I believe that the crews (always volunteers in submarines) called themselves "The suicide squad". Their history makes an interesting read.

[Northroader]

As an alternative to skrawking, as something which with even the best care in the world always manages to get off the rails, try getting grooved plastic sheet, with the grooves all exact in spacing and depth? Evergreen or Wills are two options, hopefully you're getting to a state of being able to run to bits like this.

[Andy Hayter]

It is also worth noting that many of these small coasters (but by no means all) had two holds - and certainly the one shown by Edwardian clearly has a forward and aft hold either side of the bridge.

One could be used for coal and the other for general cargo - machinery, iron/steel ingots/bars/sections/pipe, timber, drums and barrels of all kinds  etc..

[Edwardian]

It is also worth noting that many of these small coasters (but by no means all) had two holds - and certainly the one shown by Edwardian clearly has a forward and aft hold either side of the bridge.

One could be used for coal and the other for general cargo - machinery, iron/steel ingots/bars/sections/pipe, timber, drums and barrels of all kinds  etc..

 

I have, I must confess, a bit of a 'thing' for tramp steamers.  I think it is the itinerant nature, the carry anything service, and the fact that they invariably took a small number of fare paying passengers.  A romantic way to travel now lost to us.

 

Particular favourites are the '3-island' type of the early Twentieth Century.  As Andy points out, these have 2 holds.  The eponymous islands are formed by the raised foredeck, central bridge and raised after-deck.

 

Some colliers were 3-island types, including this example from the NE built in 1904: http://www.east-durham.co.uk/londonderry%20fleet/londonderry_fleet.htm

 

They are, however, likely to prove too large for Wolfingham, which, as Kevin points out, is probably silting up as we speak.  The minor port on the north coast, Birchoverham Staithe, is in much the same condition and would have been restricted to sailing vessels of modest size and draft, even into its early 20th Century Dog Days.

 

Further, I somehow feel that a tramp steamer is too modern for the backwater concerned, so, I wonder if there were still modestly sized sailing colliers in the early 1900s?

 

I rather like this one, in the colour picture below.  When these types were being built in the 1850s and '60s, they seem to have been all smart with gingerbread and chequered ports, like baby Clippers.  By the turn of the Century, I imagine they bore a more work-a-day appearance. 

 

EDIT:  Here is a picture of a collier being towed out of Seaham Harbour (what a wonderful scene!), said to be in 1904.  perfect! 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Although the pictures below are said to have been taken at Barnstaple, I suspect that they were really taken at either Wolfringham or perhaps even Madderport.

 

The steamers in the first picture look really short to me, and the second picture shows a collier, also small, discharging to the Lynton & Barnstaple railway Pilton Wharf on the right.

 

The sailing ketches were apparently used for sand and gravel, which was loaded by beaching them on banks in the river estuary at low tide, as well as for other, more general cargoes.

 

K

[The Stationmaster]

There were plenty of sailing ships carrying coal in the coastal trade in the pre WWI years, in fact they often predominate in view of some of the South Wales ports and no doubt worked on the East Coast as well.  They survived because they existed (although new build continued), were cheap to man, and were ideally suited to small ports around the coast with relatively modest loads and, ideally a back or onward cargo as well as whatever they were delivering.

[Donw]

The change was earlier than that for most railways, as far as I know.

Don spelt it "brake" in the following clause, however...

 

Agreed but I am used to both spellings so which one was wrong? Besides I think of the word to write not how to spell it and somehow the instruction to my fingers causes the word to appear on the screen. I think my fingers assume they know what keys to press I am always having to correct their mistakes ( the word 'what' came up as 'waht' just now the left hand getting ahead of the right).

Don

[Donw]

There were plenty of sailing ships carrying coal in the coastal trade in the pre WWI years, in fact they often predominate in view of some of the South Wales ports and no doubt worked on the East Coast as well.  They survived because they existed (although new build continued), were cheap to man, and were ideally suited to small ports around the coast with relatively modest loads and, ideally a back or onward cargo as well as whatever they were delivering.

 

I would agree with Mike on this. There are lots of references to collier brigs coming down the east coast. They could be held in port by adverse winds but if the cargo was not urgent or destined for a small harbour they were very suitable. The first use of steam powered boats was I believe as tugs towing sailing vessels out of harbour. The steam boats needed to refuel often so staying near a harbour made sense. Later they became the choice for Packet boats where a swift reliable journey time was an advantage. I think the Brigs were also used for the Slate trade but as it would have been a long trip from North Wales Cumbria or Cornwall rail transport to Norfolk seems more likely.

Don

[Nearholmer]

A few more pictures, including one of the shunting engines.

 

These are actually Whitstable, which was definitely a coal import point, that being a major part of why it, and the associated railway to Canterbury, were established in 1830.

 

Can we also export fruit? I ask, because there was a special type of boat for this, around Kent, the Fruit Schooner, which I think was meant to be lighter and faster than an ordinary sailing barge, with a vast amount of sail, to get to London before the currants went mouldy. [Further reading tells me I'd misunderstood these fruit schooners a bit: they worked coastal trade for only part of the year, then went to the Azores and back, except for the very proportion that sank on the way back, bringing fruit for sale in the lead-up to Christmas. They were quite tiny things, each carrying only about 150 tons, so it must have been terrifying crossing the ocean in one!]

 

K

Edited July 21, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Andy Hayter]

And while we are talking of bringing cargoes into shallow staithes we should not forget the Thames sailing barge - which despite its monica sailed regularly down the East coast and even across to the continent.

http://www.wyvenhoe.co.uk/history.html

Edited July 21, 2016 by Andy Hayter

[Donw]

And while we are talking of bringing cargoes into shallow staithes we should not forget the Thames sailing barge - which despite its monica sailed regularly down the East coast and even across to the continent.

 

http://www.wyvenhoe.co.uk/history.html

 

My Great Grandfather was from a line of Agricultural Labourers at Great Wigborough he could see the Thames Barges from the hill and made his way down and became a Bargeman. The advantage of them was they could beach on a mud flat load the cargo often hay for all the horses in London. They would then float off at the next high tide. Probably the sort of thing that could go down the Woolfingham creek. I don't know if they were used regularly for coal  possibly not.

Don 

[Northroader]

Southend at the end of August there's the barge races, if you're interested.

[Nearholmer]

Sailing barges were used as "local distributors" of coal, if not to make the entire voyage from the NE. A decent-sized ship would discharge to either lighters or sailing barges, depending upon the nature of the waterway to the final destination.

 

Two pictures at the bottom show this process underway. And, at the very bottom, lighters discharging coal up river in Chelsea.

 

My favourite coal delivery route of this kind was: collier from NE to Rye Harbour; onwards by Rye Barge, which was a sort of very small and thin sailing barge, up the various tributaries, to wharves, or semi-decent bits of riverbank, where unloading was by plank and barrow. One destination was Brede pumping station, which was about a mile from the river, so the final part involved unloading using a small steam crane and buckets, to an 18" gauge railway, with trains hauled by a teeny little Bagnall 0-4-0ST. Goodness only knows what was being paid for each ton of coal by the time they burned it, given the immensely labour-intensive process of getting it the length of England!

 

Loco shown in both its guises below - the little book has lots of info about this and another similar line nearby, and contains a couple of drawings by yours truly (the better drawings in it are by named author!).

 

Kevin

Edited July 21, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Shadow]

There's a comment in this article that says that Albion's, a Norfolk Wherry, first load of coal when it was launched (in 1898) was from Lowestoft to Bungay. At a shilling per tonne.

 

http://www.wherryalbion.com/history/albionworkinglife.php

 

Edit to add link below. Image 3 in slideshow shows a Wherry unloading coal.

 

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/five_of_norfolk_s_last_remaining_wherries_sail_again_1_4094391

Edited July 21, 2016 by Shadow

[Caley Jim]

As an alternative to skrawking, as something which with even the best care in the world always manages to get off the rails, try getting grooved plastic sheet, with the grooves all exact in spacing and depth? Evergreen or Wills are two options, hopefully you're getting to a state of being able to run to bits like this.

Another way is to use a craft knife backwards. I.e. draw the point of the knife along the lines but with the cutting edge facing away from the card. This will produce a 'v'-shaped groove and will 'plough' a slight ridge on either side. This can be shaved off by running the sharp edge of a curved blade, lying almost flat, over the surface.

 

Jim

[Donw]

I find all sorts of things can be used for scribing the back or side of a stanley knife blade, the tip of an old pair of gilbows. I just try on a bit of scrap first to see the effect it will give. Something that will make a small V groove can if held at an angle produce the right effect for wagon planking  - well at least until you hold it at the opposite angle mutter mutter curse curse

Don