Castle Aching

[Echo]

I am firmly in the Manning Wardle camp when it comes to locos for light railways - quaint, light axle load and you can double head them in the (unlikely) event of heavy trains. Colonel Stephens will provide references if needed. RT Models do kits of 2 varieties.

 

On the other hand, there is always Boulton's siding...

[Edwardian]

I am firmly in the Manning Wardle camp when it comes to locos for light railways - quaint, light axle load and you can double head them in the (unlikely) event of heavy trains. Colonel Stephens will provide references if needed. RT Models do kits of 2 varieties.

 

On the other hand, there is always Boulton's siding...

 

First of all, I must confess that I have always been a huge fan of Manning Wardles.  For me, they are the archetypal Contractor’s/Light Railway/Industrial locomotive.   They made some great ‘Specials’, but my favourites are two of the standard designs; the diminutive Old ‘I’ Class, which, with its fluted safety valve cover, is a real touch of the 1850s, and the K Class, simply because it was the most populous design and ubiquitous.  I believe the works livery was a very attractive shade of blue, to boot.

 

I am aware that RT models do kits of both the Old I and the K in 4mm.  I must evolve my skills before tackling them.  If I was flush, I’d support the manufacturer by purchasing them now, even if that mean a few years in a drawer, but pre-house sale, my budget won’t stretch to kits.  Soon, soon …

 

The same goes for one of my other pet delights, little 2-4-0Ts of the Beyer Peacock and Sharp Stewart varieties.  The Isle of Eldernell & Mereport Railway is slated to have two of the little ones of the 1860s, as purchased by Cambrian Railways.  I await only relative liquidity before investing in Quarryscapes’ 3D prints of the ‘as delivered’ version.  In fact, once solvent, I’d happily consider a third, for the West Norfolk Railway. I suspect Mainly Trains’ chassis will have ceased to be available by then, however.

 

So, turning to Sharp Stewart, the 2-4-0 tender, the 0-6-0 tender and the 0-6-0T proposed for 4mm by Furness Wagon are all easy fits for a line like the west Norfolk.

 

Quarryscapes has suggested Sharp Stewart 2-4-2Ts and that the Manchester & Milford had 2, both different sizes.  I am not sure any of my reference material covers these, and have yet to research them, but should do so.

 

Kevin has suggested a Sharp Stewart Met D 2-4-0T.  With its greater bulk, it has its own charm, distinct from its little sisters, but equally attractive.  I cannot find a drawing, but Wiki suggests they were not disposed of until 1922.

Sharp Stewart appears to have supplied similar locomotives to other railways. 

 

Hitherto, I had only considered the small 1860s 2-4-0Ts supplied to the Cambrian.  These were Cambrian Nos 44, 56-59, Sharp Stewart Works Numbers 1488, 1656, 1681-1683.  They were built from 1864.  They were diminutive locos with 4' 6" drivers and 3' leading wheels.  the w/b was 6' + 6'3". 

 

I had not considered other, larger, Sharp Stewart 2-4-0Ts.  Fortunately, some of these went to Welsh railways, and, so, Russell’s volume on GW Absorbed Engines comes to the rescue, from which I gather:

 

• Sharp Stewart supplied the Barry Railway with 2 2-4-0Ts in 1889 (Barry nos 21 and 22), and 2 in 1890 (Barry Nos 37 and 52).  The earlier 2 stayed with the Barry, but the second pair went to the Port Talbot Railway.  Russell says that all 4 were converted to 2-4-2Ts (pages 42-43), but the Port Talbot entry casts some doubt on this.  Russell’s pictures and drawings of the engines are all of the 2-4-2T rebuilds.  The rebuilds, so presumably the originals, appear to have 5’3” drivers at 7’9” centres.  The w/b is 7’6” + 7’9” and the leading wheels appear to be 3’6” and, again, I assume these measurements derive from the original configuration.

 

• We pick up the story of Barry nos 37 and 52 of 1890 at Russell pages 190-191.  Here we find that No. 37 was not rebuilt as a 2-4-T, and Russell includes a profile drawing of the Barry/Port Talbot condition (p190) and a photograph (p191) of the engine in a westernised condition.   The drawing also shows that the w/b is 7’6” + 7’9”, leading wheels 3’6, and drivers 5’3”.

 

• At pages 231 and 228 of Russell, we are introduced to a Sharp Stewart supplied to the Neath & Brecon.  Its Directors, we are told, viewed with interest the success of the Barry 2-4-0Ts and ordered one for themselves, delivered in 1893.  It shares the dimensions of the Barry class; the w/b is 7’6” + 7’9”, leading wheels 3’6, and drivers 5’3”.  Russell includes a profile drawing (p228) and a photograph (p231), both showing the N&P condition.

Below drawings of the port Talbot (ex-Barry) and Neath & Brecon engines, and a picture of the latter.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Edwardian

[Tom Burnham]

Well, it has a guano and fish oil plant, and, as Kevin discovered, now redundant coprolite mines.  Thus proving that, whilst all that glitters is not gold, where there's muck there's brass.

 

I suspect that a passing relationship with the real Norfolk ought to be maintained!

William Burkitt was a great mover and shaker in late-Victorian King's Lynn so might well have been involved with the guano works.  What could be more natural than that his private engine, "Gazelle", should appear on the WNR?  Actually building a model that worked would be a problem, though.  Maybe permanently coupled to a motorised inspection saloon?

http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/locomotives/gazelle

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

[Nearholmer]

Blow me, the fish oil and guano works even gets a mention in the story of 'Gazelle': "....West Norfolk Farmers' Chemical & Manure works ......".

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the Castle Aching Caper is actually influencing real history, through some strange time-portal (probably pyramid-related, thinking about it).

 

K

[Edwardian]

William Burkitt was a great mover and shaker in late-Victorian King's Lynn so might well have been involved with the guano works.  What could be more natural than that his private engine, "Gazelle", should appear on the WNR?  Actually building a model that worked would be a problem, though.  Maybe permanently coupled to a motorised inspection saloon?

http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/locomotives/gazelle

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

 

Gazelle would be a highly appropriate presence, perhaps running on the Aching Hall Estate line.  How to build her though, that's the thing?

 

What a wonderful article.  At one point, I was concerned at the locomotive's exposure to the "vagaries of East Angolan weather", however.

 

 

Blow me, the fish oil and guano works even gets a mention in the story of 'Gazelle': "....West Norfolk Farmers' Chemical & Manure works ......".

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the Castle Aching Caper is actually influencing real history, through some strange time-portal (probably pyramid-related, thinking about it).

 

K

 

Yes, I'm starting to worry about that, too.

 

Could the West Norfolk Farmers' Chemical & Manure Co Ltd run to a PO?  If so, what sort of wagon do we think? 

[Nearholmer]

A very malodorous one, I should reckon.

 

K

 

PS: Copious detail here http://mike.da2c.org/igg/rail/12-linind/fertil.htm , including a reference to The West Norfolk outfit, and another to The Native Guano Company. Might the latter have some bearing on the excursion to Angola?

 

PPS: and, below is a reference that might come in handy professionally.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Anotheran]

Quarryscapes has suggested Sharp Stewart 2-4-2Ts and that the Manchester & Milford had 2, both different sizes.  I am not sure any of my reference material covers these, and have yet to research them, but should do so.

 

Number 2 (the second of that number!) Plynlimmon and number 6 Cader Idris were leased by the GWR in 1906 as number 1304 and 1306 before being later absorbed when the M&M underwent that fate. I have a strong interest in the latter as it ran for some considerable time on the Newcastle Emlyn branch and appears in a very nice photograph of 1911 at Newcastle Emlyn that is the first photo on the Disused Stations page for that station. I've not got anywhere near it yet, but I have purchased my Bachmann L&Y 2-4-2 donor for my attempt at a conversion. While my modelling has stalled somewhat for the moment if anyone is interested my plans for the L&Y 2-4-2T are described on my thread and I've also annotated a diagram of Cader Idris showing the differences between her and the Bachmann Lanky. There are some very nice pictures of both of these locos in JS Holden's The Manchester & Milford Railway that I purchased just for Cader Idris but which turned out to be a fascinating read about locos, coaches, wagons, dreams and complete mismanagement of finances and geography!

 

In short I really like the look of the Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T locos and the release of the Bachmann L&Y as a potential donor allied with the photographs to work from, together with threads like this one and ChrisN's were the chief influences on my decision to enable my layout (or rather my future layout!) to run in those pre-WWI years that were graced by Cader Idris.

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited July 26, 2016 by Anotheran

[Edwardian]

 

Number 2 (the second of that number!) Plynlimmon and number 6 Cader Idris were leased by the GWR in 1906 as number 1304 and 1306 before being later absorbed when the M&M underwent that fate. I have a strong interest in the latter as it ran for some considerable time on the Newcastle Emlyn branch and appears in a very nice photograph of 1911 at Newcastle Emlyn that is the first photo on the Disused Stations page for that station. I've not got anywhere near it yet, but I have purchased my Bachmann L&Y 2-4-2 donor for my attempt at a conversion. While my modelling has stalled somewhat for the moment if anyone is interested my plans for the L&Y 2-4-2T are described on my thread and I've also annotated a diagram of Cader Idris showing the differences between her and the Bachmann Lanky. There are some very nice pictures of both of these locos in JS Holden's The Manchester & Milford Railway that I purchased just for Cader Idris but which turned out to be a fascinating read about locos, coaches, wagons, dreams and complete mismanagement of finances and geography!

 

In short I really like the look of the Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T locos and the release of the Bachmann L&Y as a potential donor allied with the photographs to work from, together with threads like this one and ChrisN's were the chief influences on my decision to enable my layout (or rather my future layout!) to run in those pre-WWI years that were graced by Cader Idris.

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Thank you.  I had forgotten this, because I had read your post; both the photograph and the drawing I had seen in your topic (I know that because I see I had rated your post!).  Memory not what it was, alas.

 

It seem that you and I are considering much the same sort of project with this loco and the T7 0-4-2T.  I really must stop putting it off!

[corneliuslundie]

Mainly Trains is certainly still trading at the moment. I recently bought some etched parts - and I have the above mentioned chassis to go with a Gem body. Since the firm is now trading as Williams & Cleal, Willett Farm Workshops, Taunton, Somerset, TA4 3QB, UK there seems to be a new hand at the regulator. Good news indeed. And the Cambrian chassis is still listed.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

A very malodorous one, I should reckon.

 

K

 

PS: Copious detail here http://mike.da2c.org/igg/rail/12-linind/fertil.htm , including a reference to The West Norfolk outfit, and another to The Native Guano Company. Might the latter have some bearing on the excursion to Angola?

 

PPS: and, below is a reference that might come in handy professionally.

 

Excellent link, thanks:

 

"One of the more important fertilisers was 'guano' (compacted bird dropping built up over many hundreds of years, mostly recovered from large deposits found on islands off the Chilean and Peruvian coasts and from Ocean Island in the Indian Ocean). This material is white and powdery and arrived in the country in bulk or in bags (sacks). Guano is mostly lime phosphate and ammonia and so contains all three of the important ingredients (about 10% nitrogen with about 60% phosphorous and 2% potassium).

 

Not all guano was guano however, in London the Native Guano Company set up in 1888 and originally based in Kingston-upon-Thames they moved to Southall following complaints from their residential neighbours in 1909. This firm took in the sewage from several London sewage farms (at Kingston it was supplied by pipeline, at Southall it arrived in barges) and processed this to separate the water (returned to the Thames) and the useful solid matter, which they dried, pelletised and sold as fertiliser. This was considered a valuable fertiliser and quite a lot was exported. The only drawback is that tomato seeds will pass through the human gut, and the subsequent processing, so sometimes you will find tomatoes growing where you thought you had planted something else"

 

Kevin is, of course, never happier than when this topic becomes scatological.

 

I was interested to learn that, according to the Colonel Stephens Society, or, its spell-checker, the territory inhabited by the West Norfolk Railway is East Angola. This came as something of a shock, as I had hitherto understood the West Norfolk to run within the confines of East Angula, which might at least have justified some of those model railway right-angled curves.

 

Shurely shome mishtake.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

In the unlikely event that you wish to pursue this theme, I can supply photos, from my own camera, of 2ft gauge railways at the huge "sewage farm" that used to serve Birmingham, containing ample evidence of the tomato pip phenomenon, also sunflowers. A very memorable visit, during which yours truly stepped backwards off of a railway line on an embankment, tumbled down a slope, and descended knee-deep into what is best described as "mire". [just remembered that some of the pictures are on line, no tomatoes visible, though http://www.ingr.co.uk/minworth.html ]

 

Also available is an excellent book by Charles Small, a "world explorer of narrow gauge railways", showing guano extraction railways on various south sea islands - giants cliffs of the stuff being quarried, then transported to loading wharves by Decauville railways.

 

K

Edited July 27, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Metropolitan H]

If you want a really dainty 2-4-0T and from Manning-Wardle, why not look at the possibility of a Milwall Extension Railway loco - as drawn in MRJ No. 53, with photos in Nos. 55 and 57? - One even ran with full tank side adverts for Pears Soap at one time. The only downside is the three locos were still in PLA employ till the early 1920s.

 

Also see: http://www.shapeways.com/product/XCQBT4X6D/pla-millwall-extension-railway-2-4-0t-kit?optionId=56885706 

 

Regarding the Met D class, it is worth remembering that they were originally bought for working the outlying Aylesbury and Buckingham Railway (under Met ownership) before the rest of the Met reached Aylesbury. 

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited July 27, 2016 by Metropolitan H

[Fenman]

...

"...West Norfolk Farmers' Chemical & Manure works ..."

...

 

On a point of trivia: if that's a reference to the King's Lynn factory, it was always known locally as "the Muck Works". The less fortunate of my two grandfathers worked there.

 

Paul

[Edwardian]

Back down to earth with the locomotive I actually have on the stocks.  More like 'in the stocks', but still.

 

I have not done a lot, save taking a power tool to the chassis block.  Frankly, I will be amazed if it still works after all the drilling and filing (no way to test!), but hey, ho.

 

I made a hole.  Eventually.  With the result that I can now see daylight under the boiler.  One up on the Oxford Radial, at least!

[BlueLightning]

Looking good James, she's gonna be a beautiful loco when she's finished.

 

Gary

[Fenman]

This is wildly OT and probably of no use to you, but I found myself unexpectedly excited by an image on display in a tiny and quirky local history museum in, of all places, Walsingham.

 

First, a shameful confession: I have always been a bit jealous of those amazing wooden trestle bridges that Brunel contrived for the other "Great" railway. So imagine my surprise and delight at discovering something that probably everyone else already knew: the GER had them too. Or, rather, I have now seen evidence that they had at least one.

 

 

The caption had no date, but it described the bridge as being at East Barsham. That's a little east of the epicentre of your operations, though with your expanded Norfolk geography I wasn't sure whether or not it was within spitting distance.

 

Anyway, digression over.

 

Paul

[Edwardian]

Looking good James, she's gonna be a beautiful loco when she's finished.

 

Gary

 

Well, I'll certainly try my best!  Thanks, Gary

 

This is wildly OT and probably of no use to you, but I found myself unexpectedly excited by an image on display in a tiny and quirky local history museum in, of all places, Walsingham.

 

First, a shameful confession: I have always been a bit jealous of those amazing wooden trestle bridges that Brunel contrived for the other "Great" railway. So imagine my surprise and delight at discovering something that probably everyone else already knew: the GER had them too. Or, rather, I have now seen evidence that they had at least one.

 

 

 

The caption had no date, but it described the bridge as being at East Barsham. That's a little east of the epicentre of your operations, though with your expanded Norfolk geography I wasn't sure whether or not it was within spitting distance.

 

Anyway, digression over.

 

Paul

 

Paul, what a great photograph.  Thanks.

 

I said to myself, 'I wonder if that was later replaced with masonry' and Googled for a bridge there.  No luck.

 

Then I tried the OS maps at the National Library of Scotland, and, guess what, it is clearly there on the 1885 survey, but, by the time of the 1904 revision, the gap had been filled in leaving a culvert for the stream.  A short distance to the north, the line entered a cutting, in the middle of which the 1885 map shows a tunnel.  By 1904, this, too, had gone, and the site opened up to a continuous cutting.

 

What a fantastic feature and, as it's on the Wells-Fakenham axis, not too far east! 

 

Now, where can I fit it in?!?

 

EDIT: The following reference suggests that the viaduct and tunnel were eliminated in 1893, http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/30a81736-8757-42f1-8b62-8f2935a23c9c.  I think this page of the London Gazetter is announcing the exercise of powers to make these and other changes, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/26347/page/6609/data.pdf

Edited July 27, 2016 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

So, having continued with the mock up, I am not entirely sure that daylight under the boiler will be an appreciable feature, the boiler pitch of the T7 is noticeably lower (more filing, this time to the top of the engine block)! 

 

I value the optimistic confidence of Gary, and, I believe, Simon would be the first to advocate belief in my own meagre powers.  I feel bound to say, though, that I have no idea how this is going to turn out, BUT, I can be confident of at least one thing; I believe that I could produce a convincing Paddington Bear version of this locomotive. 

 

Those who remember the wonderful animated TV Paddington, narrated by Sir Michael Hordern, will know what I mean!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Do you have a junior hacksaw in your tool set?

 

Much quicker way of dealing with cast chassis blocks that filing alone (I suppose asking your friends round to a filing party would be quicker too).

 

K

[Donw]

The removal of the Tunnel and the filling in of the viaduct makes sense. The material removed in the former would be used for the latter and with the railway to transport it between the two. I am sure the loco wil  turn out fine. Incidentally masking tape can be useful to keep the filing and swarf out of the working gubbins. 

Don

[uax6]

Seeing how your buildings turn out, I have every confidence that your loco will be just as good. You may not achieve it on the first attempt, but you will be able to do it.

 

How about a very low timber trestle bridge, maybe over a small river and its flood plain? Plenty of rivers like that around the bottom of Castle Acre. Wouldn't need to be too long, say 10". Personally I'd like to see you build it properly, so that it is actually weight bearing.... ;-)

 

Loco ash was also a favourite material for filling in timber viaducts, the L&Y one mentioned above (but I can't think of its name now!) had sunday blocks so that the engineers could tip loco ash over the sides to bury it. Maybe your one could have one end being filled with ash too, so that it looks like work is on its way to eliminate it?

 

Andy G

[Quarryscapes]

This has taken me a good half hour to find in my archives! Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T for Dutch Rhenish Railway drawn and describe in The Engineer from 1881. 

 

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/d/dc/Er18810722.pdf

 

See also 

 

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/a/ae/Er18810805.pdf

 

for an engraving. If you compare the dimensions with those for the lanky Tank in the Newcastle Emlyn thread, you'll see it's an even closer match than the M&M locos. 

[Nearholmer]

Ash embankments are interesting things.

 

They are very prone to subside, and they will self-combust after years of peace.

 

The Met Railway used ash embankments on the section in the Finchley - Neasden area, and they have caused a lot of trouble over the years, because, while the under-bridges, on good foundations, stand firm, the embankments slip down, creating a hump in the track over each bridge.

 

K

[Edwardian]

Do you have a junior hacksaw in your tool set?

 

Much quicker way of dealing with cast chassis blocks that filing alone (I suppose asking your friends round to a filing party would be quicker too).

 

K

 

Indeed, and I am wondering if I should not simply (!) cut out the whole mid-section of the chassis block between the tanks and smoke box?

 

The new boiler barrel could be waited to compensate.

 

 

Well, if you can accurately cut out the paper templates, you can do the same with styrene sheet.

 

 

Thanks, Simon

 

 

Nobody does: that's part of the fun.

 

 

 

Agree

 

 

Paddington Bear was actually fully 3D, by the way...

 

Pedant!

 

 

The removal of the Tunnel and the filling in of the viaduct makes sense. The material removed in the former would be used for the latter and with the railway to transport it between the two.

 

Agree, Don.  The Wells & Wymondham Branch (GER) was probably not the most advanced line, but, nevertheless, I don't see that the WNR needs to keep up.  It has not, for instance, upgraded or done away with its 1850s 40' turntables, so there is a natural limit to size of locomotives at least.

 

 

I am sure the loco will  turn out fine. Incidentally masking tape can be useful to keep the filing and swarf out of the working gubbins. 

 

 

Good idea, thanks, wish I'd thought of it in time

 

Seeing how your buildings turn out, I have every confidence that your loco will be just as good. You may not achieve it on the first attempt, but you will be able to do it.

 

How about a very low timber trestle bridge, maybe over a small river and its flood plain? Plenty of rivers like that around the bottom of Castle Acre. Wouldn't need to be too long, say 10". Personally I'd like to see you build it properly, so that it is actually weight bearing.... ;-)

 

Loco ash was also a favourite material for filling in timber viaducts, the L&Y one mentioned above (but I can't think of its name now!) had sunday blocks so that the engineers could tip loco ash over the sides to bury it. Maybe your one could have one end being filled with ash too, so that it looks like work is on its way to eliminate it?

 

Andy G

 

Thanks, Andy, a low timber trestle sounds about right.

 

 

This has taken me a good half hour to find in my archives! Sharp Stewart 2-4-2T for Dutch Rhenish Railway drawn and describe in The Engineer from 1881. 

 

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/d/dc/Er18810722.pdf

 

See also 

 

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/a/ae/Er18810805.pdf

 

for an engraving. If you compare the dimensions with those for the lanky Tank in the Newcastle Emlyn thread, you'll see it's an even closer match than the M&M locos. 

 

 

Brilliant, and very kind, thank you.  That L&Y Radial is starting to look like a target!

 

 

Ash embankments are interesting things.

 

They are very prone to subside, and they will self-combust after years of peace.

 

The Met Railway used ash embankments on the section in the Finchley - Neasden area, and they have caused a lot of trouble over the years, because, while the under-bridges, on good foundations, stand firm, the embankments slip down, creating a hump in the track over each bridge.

 

K

 

I suspect that any unevenness in the WNR's permanent way will be purely accidental!

[Edwardian]

You seem to think that to be some form of abuse?

 

On the contrary, I expected you to take it as a compliment!