Castle Aching

[mullie]

The road where I grew up still had a few houses with bucket toilets in the 80s and there are members of my family who still don't have mains drainage and I'm talking about rural Essex only 20 miles outside London.

 

I believe my parents only got a flush toilet around 1964 because we lived in a farm cottage.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the reason that I mentioned ackroyd Stuart engines was that their first application was to a water works, built following epedemics, at Denny Stratford / Brickhill. Can't recall exact date off hand, but about 1890 IIRC.

 

K

[The Stationmaster]

I was surprised to learn, upon visiting Tees Cottage pumping station, Darlington, in June, that sewerage systems came late to some places.  We learn at school of the cholera epidemics in London of the 1850s, the big stink and Parliament finally doing something about it: Bazalgette (what a name), sewers, the Embankment etc.

 

What I had not realised is how long it took the rest of the country to take proper measures to avoid such epidemics. In the late Nineteenth Century, in addition to unregulated industrial waste poured into the Tees at Barnard Castle, the river was already carrying appreciable amounts of livestock ordure from up the dale, to which the townsfolk merrily added their own excreta.  The result, a very nasty cholera outbreak in 1896, but not just in the town; it caused an epidemic downstream in Darlington.

 

No real excuse for this situation best part of half a century after the cause and prevention of cholera had been understood and applied. This is a prosperous market town and a major industrial/railway town.  Obviously the will and cohesion had not existed to secure a safe water supply until after disaster struck with such force.

 

Sometimes the Victorians took their time to show their greatness.   

 

Interestingly both sets of my grand - one of whom lived in a village while the maternal ones tenanted a farm in a small hamlet - had mains water, with a tap outside the back door but neither had mains sewerage.  One had electricity installed when they had a new milking parlour in early 1953 but the other relied entirely on oil lamps and candles until the day he died, in 1961.  So whilst the Victorians undoubtedly did make improvements it would appear in both of their cases that although water arrived from a main the disposal side of things continued following more traditional methods - into the early 1960s in both cases.

[Stubby47]

Eugh!

Makes my contribution, which is a picture of a traditional Norfolk stool-making shed (unfortunately I couldn't find one with a sinister laughing mannequin peering out of it) seem quite tasteful.

This might bring us back on-topic, because I'm sure that Castle Aching didn't have much in the way of main drainage in 1905, so will need a few of these.

K

Yeah !!!

[BG John]

Mains drainage! What's that? Apparently, when mains drainage came to the village, the current owner of my house wouldn't let them lay the pipes across his land. It seems that the council paid the contractors for the work, and had the pipes on their records, but they didn't actually exist!

[TheQ]

Once you get outside of Castle Aching or any other big village in Norfolk mains sewerage is rare. In our village of about 20 houses spread over a mile and a half of road, less than half have it and they are all down the other end of the village from us.

 

My house built 1906 is on the site of the old village pub closed 1895, down the left hand side of the garden are the remains of the foundations for the pubs 3 outside, bucket and chuckit privies.

Mains water arrived in the 1970s, electricity in the early 60s. One of my 2 wells has the remains of a frame for an electric pump hanging from its wall.

 

The double bottomless cess tanks installed 1906 are only 20 ft from the main well, I think that we'll stay on mains water and just use the well for watering the garden.

[Stubby47]

Not quite Norfolk, but these buildings in Broadstairs reminded me of the type used in your village.

 

Apologies for the harsh sunlight, it was early morning (on holiday, that's about 8:30am), and the odd angles (it was a very narrow lane). The earliest of this row allegedly dates from 1603.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phil_sutters]

Interestingly both sets of my grand - one of whom lived in a village while the maternal ones tenanted a farm in a small hamlet - had mains water, with a tap outside the back door but neither had mains sewerage.  One had electricity installed when they had a new milking parlour in early 1953 but the other relied entirely on oil lamps and candles until the day he died, in 1961.  So whilst the Victorians undoubtedly did make improvements it would appear in both of their cases that although water arrived from a main the disposal side of things continued following more traditional methods - into the early 1960s in both cases.

We had a holiday in the early fifties on a farm near Ampleforth. The only electricity was, according to my parents, in the piggery where their prize pig lived.

[Nearholmer]

And, in a further attempt to flog bits of vernacular architecture to Edwardian ......,,

 

What CA needs is a water pumping station, housing a pair of oil engines, built c1892-5, in 'public works gothic', as was used for many schools.

 

This one is from 1892, but it is a steam one, and hence a lot bigger, so imagine a much smaller building, adopting the same style.

 

I can't find a picture of the first oil engine one, also dating to 1892, so when I get a free half-day, I will go and see if it still exists; doubt it, because it was superseded in the 1929s, but you never know.

 

It should be set over a purpose-bored deep well, far enough from sources of pollution to guarantee the safety of the aquifer that it draws from. I don't think there was any treatment of the water at this stage, but there probably would be a small reservoir, although that might not be adjacent to the well, because I think it needed to be at a high point to obviate the need for secondary pumping.

 

Kevin

Edited September 17, 2016 by Nearholmer

[BG John]

This is the sort of window (from Stubby's 2nd photo) the world needs more of, and why I need to improve my building modelling skills!

 

[Nearholmer]

Pursuing my intent to provide CA with potable water, here are the very mettys that I envisaged, laying the pipes, with the aid of their trusty nag "Thunderbolt", and a narrow gauge tramway.

 

Wouldn't that make a great cameo ..... Or is CA too serious for cameos?

 

The watermark us the clue to actual location, date c1911. There is a bit of debate about whether the pipe-laying is actually water or gas mains, because both arrived at much the same time. If there is a water or gas engineer here-present, they might be able to comment - does the pipe-union arrangement give a clue?

 

K

Edited September 17, 2016 by Nearholmer

[TheQ]

Should someone wish to model a small country village primary school, many of those had outside toilets , I've just checked the date of closure of my second primary School, which was 1978 long after I left.

But that school had a boys gate to the left of the school and a girls gate the other when you walked round the back the was a white line down the middle you were never allowed to cross ( a teacher stood the school end ) the other was terminated by the half rooved outside loos.

 

On The railway I'm modelling sadly that school and alongside church will be just painted on the back scene.

 

Noting the various painting of windows in white this is a modern practice, traditionally windows and doors were painted green.

White paint in the past was lead based and would rapidly go yellow or grey

[Nearholmer]

TheQ

 

The school playground at my first school was subdivided by iron railings, into little-ones and big-ones zones, and each zone was subdivided into boy/girl areas by wooden post-and-rail fences. The main function of the latter was to cause nasty accidents to girls, who delighted in trying to spin over them, but frequently fell-off, head-first, onto the hard ground.

 

The school hung on to teachers, as well as railings, in that the headmistress when I attended had been the young teacher of the infant class when my father attended

 

The headmistress and another woman teacher of roughly the same age lived together in very close harmony, in the school cottage, for about thirty years. The significance of this relationship was lost on us children, but was apparently well-understood more widely. A similar close harmony applied to two guys who kept a shop in the town together, and passed-off as brothers; everyone knew that they had actually met in the army, and formed a bond.

 

Sorry, rambling again!

 

Is CA to have a school?

 

K

Edited September 17, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Andy Hayter]

Should someone wish to model a small country village primary school, many of those had outside toilets , I've just checked the date of closure of my second primary School, which was 1978 long after I left.

But that school had a boys gate to the left of the school and a girls gate the other when you walked round the back the was a white line down the middle you were never allowed to cross ( a teacher stood the school end ) the other was terminated by the half rooved outside loos.

 

On The railway I'm modelling sadly that school and alongside church will be just painted on the back scene.

 

Noting the various painting of windows in white this is a modern practice, traditionally windows and doors were painted green.

White paint in the past was lead based and would rapidly go yellow or grey

 

White lead was notorious for yellowing - but many still used it.

Zinc based whites were better, but I think more expensive.

[Nearholmer]

Light reading this is not, but real social history it truly is. All you ever wanted to know about defects in the water and sewerage provisions of Norwich in 1851. It purports to cover the county too, but finds more than enough trouble in the city, so turns a blind eye, based on a quick skim. https://ia600203.us.archive.org/30/items/b20424309/b20424309.pdf

 

And, more opportunity for exuberant architecture here http://www.heritage.norfolk.gov.uk/record-details?TNF458-Water-Towers-in-Norfolk-(Article) ........... I should have thought "water tower", when thinking reservoir, because I used to walk past the one at the bottom nearly every day as a boy.

 

This is extremely relevant too http://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/search-and-book/properties/appleton-water-tower-4670/ If the royals were contracting typhoid locally due to the bad drains, the PBI in CA were presumably in grave danger of the same.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Nearholmer

[TheQ]

Thanks for putting that report on the thread, We were wandering round many of those streets yesterday ( Saturday) SWMBO wanted some shopping...

 

Interesting timing of those maps in that report, the first map shows only Norwich Thorpe station of the Yarmouth and Norwich Railway ( only remaining station today), the second map shows Thorpe station and Victoria station of the Eastern Union Railway, which was up near the top end of St Stephens Street. With Norwich city station of the M&GN not shown at all.

 

I'll have a read of the rest of the report later...

 

The physics teacher in my first secondary school also taught my father, that school is also just off of the model I'm working on. We used to do cross country runs which involved crossing what had been the Tidworth branch? This was just a head shunt when we used to stumble across the track on an unofficial crossing point as the branch had been finally closed 5 years before.. I note on the latest Google views from above that head shunt has been shortened to just before where we ran across and the playing fields are now the other side of the former tracks.

[runs as required]

That bolt seems to have potential for preventing occupants from leaving!

The most exciting museum that I am privvy to is this one in the old Leeds workhouse and former hospital.

 

For portraying city life and its hazards in 1847 Leeds, before the spread of effective disease control, the museum rates 'pass all' (as they say in West Africa). I can't recommend it high enough for kids .

 

At the entrance, I was assigned the 'character' of David who at the age of 10 or 11, apparently worked at the slaughtering site clearing offal away from the slope below where the range of privvies discharged out.

The posh medics I was with scoffed at my chances of survival. And after passing several update screens, by about 17 I'd caught every horrendous disease on offer.

However, by the last screen at the exit, albeit pitifully disfigured and disabled, I'd outlived them all; emerging as the winner of the sweepstake we'd paid into beforehand.

  dh

 

health check: what rating does this post score on the Castle Aching thread OT swingometer ?

Edited September 18, 2016 by runs as required

[Donw]

Interesting to read the comments on drainage. We had to install septic tanks in the first two houses we bought . Had to repair the septic tank system in the third which was in the High Street.  we have have two further properties with Septic tank drainage including our current property.

The second one was quite interesting it was a semi detched cottage in a row of semis all different styles. When we moved in none of them had any form of drainage apart from a small stone culvert that ran under the access road behing the cottages which ran down to the stream. Most cottages had a pipe from the kitchen sink into the culvert. Water was a private supply from under the Wenlock Edge we all chipped in for the electric bill for the pump. Out neighbour could be seen in the morning tucking his shirt in and pulling up his braces as he returned across the access road from his earth closet.  We dug out and installed a septic tank. Because the ground was rising slightly we installed a pump chamber to pump the outflow up to the top of the garden when it was then dispersed in channels under the veg plot. At the same time another cottage in the hamlet was being done up the owners employing some builders. They installed a septic tank with the outflow straight into the rising ground. Come the winter snows followed by a thaw the dispersal drains acted as a collector and the ground water forced the contents of the septic tank back into the house. One might have thought the name spring cottage might have given them a clue.

Don

[Edwardian]

 

health check: what rating does this post score on the Castle Aching thread OT swingometer ?

 

There's a topic?  Now you tell me...

[Nearholmer]

On the sub-topic of water-supply, which does have an, admittedly somewhat tenuous, relevance to the modelling of a small town in Edwardian England:

 

This seems to be the relevant legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1875/55/pdfs/ukpga_18750055_en.pdf

 

As a lawyer, our host might enjoy reading it.

 

It's no wonder it took so long to have any great affect in rural areas, because it is heavily focused on urban areas, and, to me, key parts of it seem a bit weak-kneed, because they permit rural authorities to do things, rather than oblige them.

 

The other reason it took c25 years to have impact, is that it probably took people ten years to read it, a further ten years to understand it, followed by five years of meetings to discuss how to act in the light of it; plain English it is not!

 

Kevin

 

PS: quite a bit about privies in it.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Nearholmer

[runs as required]

There's a topic?  Now you tell me...

I'd suggest that any OT swingometer can only swing negatively  ('al sinistra')

But the Castle Aching one is permitted to tilt over much further (a bit like an old French 2CV) before it starts to clock up negative swing. 

 

Hence

my #1727 above13%;  #1730 1975 Public Health Act 3%;   #1698 stool typology 58%

this post 66%

dh

[BG John]

this post 66%

dh

What about this post? Apparently it's in Norfolk!

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_well-weathered_fence_post_-_geograph.org.uk_-_666453.jpg

[jcm@gwr]

What about this post? Apparently it's in Norfolk!

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_well-weathered_fence_post_-_geograph.org.uk_-_666453.jpg

 

N-F-N.................................

 

 

Normal-for-Norfolk!

[phil_sutters]

Please make sure that your station is equipped with all the appropriate health warning notices -

 

[Quarryscapes]

I thought this discussion best continued here...

 

 

Edwardian, on 17 Sept 2016 - 13:08, said:

Thanks.

 

I am, how shall I put this, unusually price-sensitive, so this is really an issue peculiar to me than a comment on the relative value of different products.

 

I am trying to avoid buying too many separate components such as etched W irons, cast or printed axle-box/spring assemblies, brake gear, crown plates and goodness knows what else.  That is one reason butchering a plastic u/f kit appeals. 

 

The simplicity and elegance of the 3D print solution appeals.  It is, I confess, logically, the answer.

 

Out of my ideal list of about 20 wagons for Castle Aching, I find there are: 

 

GER Open Merchandise, un-diagrammed c.1883 4-plank, 9-Ton, 9’6” w/b, 15’ over headstocks
GER Open Merchandise, Diagram 16 c.1887 5-plank, 9-Ton, 9’6” w/b, 15’ o/hs
GER Open Merchandise, Diagram 17 1893-1902, 5-plank, 10-Ton, 9’6” w/b, 15’ o/hs
GER Open Merchandise, Diagram 17 1893-1902, 5-plank, 10-Ton, 9’6” w/b, 15’ o/hs

GNR Open Merchandise, c.1882, 4-plank, 9-Ton, 9’6” w/b, 15’ o/hs

 

The GE and GN types are very similar.  Of the GE wagons, the only duplicate on my list is a second Dia. 17, as they were ubiquitous, but they're all essentially similar. The GE Dia. 17 and the GN vehicles in particular represent standard designs of which thousands were built.

 

I note that some of the LBSC opens also had a 9'6" w/b.

 

A wooden 9'6" w/b 3D u/f would be a very useful thing.  Presumably the process also favours changes in axle box, bolt etc detail.

 

I apologise for the hi-jack.

 

That would be ideal 3D print material, buying in bulk would save quite a bit too. I'm slowly building up a digital collection of parts that I can cobble together and create wagons with. I've got a variety of brake gears built up ready, Cambrian axleboxes of course and Cambrian W irons, I just draw a solebar and add the necessary bits from my digital stock and voila, I have a new underframe quickly and easily! 

 

I have nothing against etched W Irons, I make my own and have used a fair bit of my stock, but I do not like trying to align them all up, then add etched brake gear which is quite simply far too fiddly to fabricate to anything like the desired accuracy - especially when you then put it in a rake with something that has "crude" injection moulded plastic kit items and you can't really tell the difference!

 

I've seen a fully working set on a P4 wagon, and I mean working not just a movable lever, I've done the latter in 2mm scale and don't plan on revisiting that sort of thing, Anything that has the potential to give me a headache or go wrong during construction, I try and avoid - I'd rather pay more and know it'll go together quickly and easily than buy cheap and spend hours hoping rather than knowing that it will all come together. I've got every possible mix of moulded, printed and etched brake gear, alxeboxes and W irons in my small fleet of wagons! 

 

Here's a little comparison for you - one of these is a plastic body on an etched chassis with separate axleboxes, the other is entirely 3D printed - from this photo, I can't tell them apart and I know which is which!