Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

It is Friday.

 

I have wine.

 

I really don't mind.

 

Please feel free to talk amongst yourselves on anything that takes your fancy.

 

After all, tradition must be maintained.

 

Thank you, we will. Enjoy!

 

For me it's a 'no brainer'.  Up there with Glasgow Corporation's 'Sewage Disposal' wagons.

 

The three wagons to the right were Glasgow Police Commissioners manure wagons.  The Police Commisioners were responsible for street cleansing before that was taken over by the Corporation.  They never carried any lettering.

 

Jim

 

In the tradition of unmarked police vehicles...

 

The PC's wagons all had the single brake block which was standard on CR and NBR wagons up to the late 1880's.  Note the brake handle on the CR 7T mineral 'bogie' at the extreme left.  I  can't make out whether the sewage wagons have one or two shoes.   NBR wagons tended to have the pivot nearer the centre of the vehicle with a push rod to the brake shoe.   I have further details of them in an old HMRS journal somewhere.

 

Jim

 

The LNWR - the 'Premier Line' stuck with the single brake block for new builds well into the 1890s - and wooden ones at that. Latterly they did follow the NBR's leap of modernity and adopt the single pushrod brake. Compare MR D299...

[Edwardian]

About the time of your modelling era for the WNR, Heligoland was ours, not theirs. (We pinched it off the Danes sometime earlier, but gave it away to kaiser bill a few years before WW1. Talking of affairs German, could the WNR use some latrine wagons, rather than manure wagons? Used to ferry contents of sewer outlets from the cities to some convenient discharge point well away.IMG_0856.JPG

Whoops, splash!

 

Now you're just taking the p1ss!

 

I had thought that Britain gave up the islands to Germany in 1890 in the Heligoland–Zanzibar Treaty. 

 

If so, Lord Erstwhile via his chums in the FO must have acted to retain the guano rights for the NFO&G Co!

 

Round about the time Erskine Childers was solving the Riddle of the Sands!

 

I think we do feel free and if I had the wine I would drink a toast to your good self.

Don

 

You are a gentleman and a scholar, Sir!

[Edwardian]

 

In the tradition of unmarked police vehicles...

 

 

Nevertheless, it would have been better if they operated undercover.

[phil_sutters]

I wonder if they had manure wagons further south. Clearly such merchandise travelled through Highbridge Wharf, with a toll charge of 1/6d per ton. As the wharf was rail-served it stands to reason that the manure had to travel in railway wagons. This is a reproduction of the Toll Charges board from the Wharf, as illustrated in Atthill. I am puzzled why timber appears in both fee categories. Perhaps one was for soft woods and one for hard?

Edited January 20, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Donw]

I think most railways had manure wagons. certainly the GWR did. Blacksmith used to do a kit for a 1905 one ( must ask Fred if he drew that one). If I had the GWR wagons book to hand I could probably find some diagram nos  R was the diagram code so R1 etc.Furness Wagons do a MR one in 7mm. 

Don

[Poggy1165]

There were at least two different sorts of traffic, probably more:

 

1. Horse manure from railway stables, which I think the GW wagons were for. Remember, pre-group railways owned a lot of horses.

 

2. What is politely know as 'night-soil'. Before modern drainage systems were installed - surprisingly late in some areas - night-soil was collected from everyone's 'closet' on a weekly basis. One method of disposing of it was to convey it in railway wagons to the country (often quite nearby) where it was spread on fields (the original 'sewage farms') and left to rot until such time as it became useful to agriculture. (I believe it needed to 'break down' as it was too strong in its 'raw' state.)

 

One of Bill Hudson's books illustrates a suitable wagon owned by a town council. Can't remember which offhand, but somewhere in Yorkshire.

[Edwardian]

 

One of Bill Hudson's books illustrates a suitable wagon owned by a town council. Can't remember which offhand, but somewhere in Yorkshire.

 

Aye, where there's muck ....

[uax6]

.... there's a Gad awful smell?

 

Andy G

[TheQ]

The military also had horse manure which was taken away by rail, they also shipped out barrels of dog droppings to the tanneries in the Midlands.

[HeavyDuty]

About the time of your modelling era for the WNR, Heligoland was ours, not theirs. (We pinched it off the Danes sometime earlier, but gave it away to kaiser bill a few years before WW1. Talking of affairs German, could the WNR use some latrine wagons, rather than manure wagons? Used to ferry contents of sewer outlets from the cities to some convenient discharge point well away.IMG_0856.JPG

Whoops, splash!

What a s***ty thing to model.

[Tom Burnham]

In the Edwardian era there were complaints from the season ticket-holders of Gravesend (SE&CR) about wagons loaded with manure left on the through lines to stimulate them while they were waiting for their trains in the morning.

[Nearholmer]

They should have formed a committee, and moved a motion that the motions be moved

 

K

Edited January 21, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Shadow]

There were at least two different sorts of traffic, probably more:

 

1. Horse manure from railway stables, which I think the GW wagons were for. Remember, pre-group railways owned a lot of horses.

 

2. What is politely know as 'night-soil'. Before modern drainage systems were installed - surprisingly late in some areas - night-soil was collected from everyone's 'closet' on a weekly basis. One method of disposing of it was to convey it in railway wagons to the country (often quite nearby) where it was spread on fields (the original 'sewage farms') and left to rot until such time as it became useful to agriculture. (I believe it needed to 'break down' as it was too strong in its 'raw' state.)

 

One of Bill Hudson's books illustrates a suitable wagon owned by a town council. Can't remember which offhand, but somewhere in Yorkshire.

Kilnhurst may be the place you're thinking off. Look for Kilnhurst Tip on page.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilnhurst

[Compound2632]

They should have formed a committee, and moved a motion that the motions be moved

 

K

 

Minuted as: the motion was carried.

 

Edit: or possibly: the motion was passed...

 

Sorry.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

I think most railways had manure wagons. certainly the GWR did. Blacksmith used to do a kit for a 1905 one ( must ask Fred if he drew that one). If I had the GWR wagons book to hand I could probably find some diagram nos  R was the diagram code so R1 etc.Furness Wagons do a MR one in 7mm. 

Don

Looking at the Furness Wagons MR manure wagon, it is without doors, but was it tanked in any way? Otherwise liquid manure would have leaked all along the track, especially if it got rained on. Mind you I suppose that was no worse than passenger train toilets dumping on the tracks until recently.

[Compound2632]

Looking at the Furness Wagons MR manure wagon, it is without doors, but was it tanked in any way? Otherwise liquid manure would have leaked all along the track, especially if it got rained on. Mind you I suppose that was no worse than passenger train toilets dumping on the tracks until recently.

 

There was some discussion about Midland D344 manure wagons on my wagon-building thread - sharris had modelled one. This discussion convinced me that they were associated with specific contracts for manure transport rather than being associated with manure generated by cattle in transit, as Bob Essery surmised in Midland Wagons. The D344 manure wagons were identical to the standard D299 merchandise & mineral wagons except that they lacked side and bottom doors - pity the labourers charged with unloading... I had supposed that the manure would be reasonably solid and perhaps mixed with straw? This is something that James might have first-hand experience of, given his wife's reported interests. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

There was some discussion about Midland D344 manure wagons on my wagon-building thread - sharris had modelled one. This discussion convinced me that they were associated with specific contracts for manure transport rather than being associated with manure generated by cattle in transit, as Bob Essery surmised in Midland Wagons. The D344 manure wagons were identical to the standard D299 merchandise & mineral wagons except that they lacked side and bottom doors - pity the labourers charged with unloading... I had supposed that the manure would be reasonably solid and perhaps mixed with straw? This is something that James might have first-hand experience of, given his wife's reported interests. 

 

If horse manure, urban and from stabled horses, the manure will be mixed with straw, which will also be soaked with urine, as it will all come out together when the boxes are mucked out.

 

So, there is some liquid content and the straw will rot and produce liquid.  Could this explain the absence of side doors, which might not be proof against leaks? 

[Andy Hayter]

I think most manure wagons were involved in what was euphemistically called night soil. The deposits from city privies were collected and then sent out to agricultural locations to be spread on the land, to grow food, to feed the people of the city, who would then pee and poo and...........

 

 

A kind of perpetual motion (if you get my drift).

[mullie]

I think most manure wagons were involved in what was euphemistically called night soil. The deposits from city privies were collected and then sent out to agricultural locations to be spread on the land, to grow food, to feed the people of the city, who would then pee and poo and...........

 

 

A kind of perpetual motion (if you get my drift).

Don't we now call that 'organic farming!'

 

Hat, coat........gone

(But I did grow up on a farm so remember the manure spreading season well as did the people in our road. The manure went all over the road as the muck spreader/tractor went up the lane).

Edited January 21, 2017 by mullie

[Edwardian]

I think most manure wagons were involved in what was euphemistically called night soil. The deposits from city privies were collected and then sent out to agricultural locations to be spread on the land, to grow food, to feed the people of the city, who would then pee and poo and...........

 

 

A kind of perpetual motion (if you get my drift).

 

This thread has an unfortunate tendency toward the scatological from time to time (and I'm pretty sure that's not my fault!).

 

You make a good point, and doubtless correct, but, then again, the volume of horse manure produced in our cities in those days was vast, and it needed to be taken away somehow, so I suspect that there must have been railway traffic as a result.

 

 

Don't we now call that 'organic farming!'

 

Hat, coat........gone

(But I did grow up on a farm so remember the manure spreading season well as did the people in our road. The manure went all over the road as the muck spreader/tractor went up the lane).

 

 

I am not usually squeamish, not least because as a country lad I know that the countryside is, more or less, covered in sh1t in one way or another, but human and dog excreta (carnivores as opposed to ruminants, essentially), stinks, and I do think that carrying this around in un-sheeted opens would offend, even in those far off days.

[Donw]

I remember farmhands telling me they missed the old days when a gang would take out a cart loaded with manure and using pitchforks spread it over the fields working together it may have been hard work but there was company out in the open and would work up a good appetite for dinner much better than one man in a tractor pulling a machine that would spread it for them. In those days the cycle of life raising the crops for the animals to eat collecting the waste from the animals and using it to grow more crops was part of their lives. I do not know Edwardian's situation but a lot of Horse owners buy the food in and disposing the waste can be a problem. Only part of the cycle.

Railways came in with the start of breaking the natural cycles. Disposal of the Horse manure became more and more of an issue. By the end of the victorian era disposal of the horse manure on the streets was a major task for cities. When we kept Geese and Ducks the straw from the houses with droppings went on the compost heap where it helped to produce a very productive compost heap. Now we buy in composted horse manure to spread on the garden. Strange world.

 

Don

[Donw]

...

 

I am not usually squeamish, not least because as a country lad I know that the countryside is, more or less, covered in sh1t in one way or another, but human and dog excreta (carnivores as opposed to ruminants, essentially), stinks, and I do think that carrying this around in un-sheeted opens would offend, even in those far off days.

 

I am a vegetarian not a carnivore do you expect it to make a difference?

Don

[Edwardian]

I remember farmhands telling me they missed the old days when a gang would take out a cart loaded with manure and using pitchforks spread it over the fields working together it may have been hard work but there was company out in the open and would work up a good appetite for dinner much better than one man in a tractor pulling a machine that would spread it for them. In those days the cycle of life raising the crops for the animals to eat collecting the waste from the animals and using it to grow more crops was part of their lives. I do not know Edwardian's situation but a lot of Horse owners buy the food in and disposing the waste can be a problem. Only part of the cycle.

Railways came in with the start of breaking the natural cycles. Disposal of the Horse manure became more and more of an issue. By the end of the victorian era disposal of the horse manure on the streets was a major task for cities. When we kept Geese and Ducks the straw from the houses with droppings went on the compost heap where it helped to produce a very productive compost heap. Now we buy in composted horse manure to spread on the garden. Strange world.

 

Don

 

I agree.  Though given the number of horses in the UK, no-one should need to buy the by-product.  As you say, the problem is getting rid of it. 

 

It is not simply the overnight content of stables, either.  As any horse-owner will know, for fear of parasites you cannot leave horse manure in the field, but must religiously "poo-pick", so it all ends up on the muck heap.

I am a vegetarian not a carnivore do you expect it to make a difference?

Don

 

I hope never to be in a position to put the matter to the test.

[Fenman]

I remember farmhands telling me they missed the old days when a gang would take out a cart loaded with manure and using pitchforks spread it over the fields working together it may have been hard work but there was company out in the open and would work up a good appetite for dinner much better than one man in a tractor pulling a machine that would spread it for them. ...

One Norfolk tenant farmer I know (he farms in this area, so this comment is not *that* far off-topic) tells me that immediately after WW2 there were 38 full time workers on his arable farm. Today there are just 3, and the landlord's agent insists that that's profligate and there really should only be 2.

 

It's almost as big an employment reduction as women out of domestic service

 

Paul

[phil_sutters]

Not looking for it, but having the stench still in my nostrils from earlier in this thread, I came across this entry, or rather these entries in a list of patent applications that were being proceeded with. It was in The Engineer for 25.6.1875 in Graces Guide, a resource that has just come into my consciousness. It seems that someone called Snelling wanted to Patent manure. Obviously, for very good reasons, the Victorians were getting round to doing something about poo of all sorts, as a patent for foecal closets appears a few entries lower, doubtless for the benefit of the good people of C.Down.