Castle Aching

[teaky]

I hope you don't mind me asking, and thereby risking wandering off topic, but is it possible for a republican to serve in the armed forces, i.e. can one volunteer (or indeed be conscripted) to fight for one's country and wish to see the back of the monarchy?

 

I am seeing parallels here with courts and so on and religion where there is a process in place for people to swear without the bible being involved. 

[Stubby47]

For the benefit of Compound2632, and any others of a republican persuasion, it might be borne in mind that yours truly once held the Queen's Commission and swore an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty! No offence taken, however.

 

 

 

Yeah, I was a Cub Scout too...

[Edwardian]

I hope you don't mind me asking, and thereby risking wandering off topic, but is it possible for a republican to serve in the armed forces, i.e. can one volunteer (or indeed be conscripted) to fight for one's country and wish to see the back of the monarchy?

 

I am seeing parallels here with courts and so on and religion where there is a process in place for people to swear without the bible being involved. 

 

When I enlisted I swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen, her heirs and successors.  The rather useful point here is that the armed forces owe allegiance to someone other than their party political masters from time to time.  I happen to find that a useful concept.  As we have, in our rather wonderful British way, completely emasculated the monarchy as an institution wielding power, it is a harmless conceit, but an important one.

 

I would add that I am not a sentimental monarchist; not one for lining the route, waving flags and buying souvenir mugs. I respect the work done in a difficult job, so far as the individuals are concerned, but, moreover, I regard the institution as essential constitutional 'glue'.  Yes, it is quirky and illogical, and anachronistic, but, as the product of slow evolution, it is capable of fulfilling a vital role that no institution planned for the purpose could hope to do, and only when, on the back of eventual public indifference, the modernisers and the rationalisers finally get their way and remove this untidy hangover from the Middle Ages will they realise how important it still was.

 

In the meantime, I'd rather have HRH as my commander in chief than Donald Trump.

[Nearholmer]

Regarding oaths:

 

About thirty years ago, I knew an old couple who had both been card carrying communists in the late 1930s, the brother of the man likewise. Both of the brothers had been naval officers, and chose that path partly because there was no oath of allegiance to the King (apparently the navy 'belonged' to 'the king in parliament', not the king); the wife was that very rare thing, a woman fully qualified as an electrical engineer, and worked with Tommy Flowers at the PO research labs on the building of Colosuss.

 

Now, it might be guessed that they were all thoroughly republican by inclination.

 

It gets stranger, in that the brother was arrested and imprisoned c1939, for passing details of shipping movements in the Channel to the Russian embassy (details are in the published history of MI5, who regarded him as quite a catch), but he was released fairly shortly thereafter, and returned to service as an officer.

 

Even allowing for the fact that we were pals with Uncle Joe for a while, one might have thought that the three of them represented a fairly substantial security risk, but in practise they all three served King and Country, and came out with a selection of medals and awards.

 

Which is, of course, well OT, but I've always had this in the "truth is stranger than fiction" file in my brain.

 

Edit: I've done a bit of further reading, and I'm not sure that the 'king in parliament' was the reason for not having to swear an oath. Looks to me as if, because the king, personally, had the right to conscript people to the navy, anyone who volunteered was deemed to be "doing the king a favour", so their loyalty was self-evident.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Nearholmer

[teaky]

Food for thought there Edwardian and Nearholmer.  Thank you.  I shall continue with my occasional pondering of this topic.  (Inevitably, I have some thoughts and opinions but it is likely that they all stray outside of the RMweb rules (of which I am supportive), so it's probably best I leave the topic alone.)

[DonB]

Like Stubby, I was a Cub Scout, but deemed unsuitable for the move to Scouting!

 

 

Edwardian---

Someone said the its not the power that the monarch has, but the power they stop others annexing !

[Edwardian]

Food for thought there Edwardian and Nearholmer.  Thank you.  I shall continue with my occasional pondering of this topic.  (Inevitably, I have some thoughts and opinions but it is likely that they all stray outside of the RMweb rules (of which I am supportive), so it's probably best I leave the topic alone.)

 

I, for one, have no objection to the sharing of thoughtful (and moderately expressed!) views.  As you say, forum rules are the limiting factor here.

 

Please do not feel that Castle Aching is a monarchy in which those of a republican persuasion are not most welcome. I just felt that comparing Royalty with dung, albeit accepted and understood to be in jest, was knocking on the door of what I might find uncomfortable! 

 

The Royal connection that has strayed in recently is, perhaps, inevitable given the presence of the Sandringham Estate in west Norfolk.  I had no Royal connection in mind at all as part of the WN concept, though as we have charted the geography of the line, we find that it will join the GE Lynn & Hunstanton somewhere in the vicinity of Sandringham.

 

It might make some uncomfortable if it appears as if CA is now to be a celebration of monarchy. That is not my intention. I view proximate historical Royals rather as part of the scene, like the churches of various denominations, and the layout is neutral as to political and religious creed.  For the sake of balance, I could include a nihilist bomber, but I'd rather not!

 

If it is of any comfort, my interest in Wolferton is mainly due to the added interest that a T19 or Claud and a set of saloons adds to the working of this branch.  My interest in the Yeomanry is primarily my interest in uniforms and militaria and, particularly, my affection for the branch of the armed forces in which I served for 10 years, both as an other rank and as a commissioned officer.

[webbcompound]

Of course an interesting  military variant is the "going to summer manoevers/camp" train. They can include all kinds of "foreign" stock, dependent on where the terriers come from, or the regulars are based. A typical infantry unit would have a set of old stock for ORs, a nicer first class carriage for officers, and a horsebox or two for the officer's mounts. They would be accompanied by a train of assorted flat, or low sided stock for the GS wagons, a couple of carriages for the drivers, and cattle trucks for the draft horses. Obviously cavalry, and artillery units would have different compositions. A project lurking at the back of my list would be a Garrison Artillery battery of 60pounders, only four guns needed, but lots of supporting waggons and horses so maybe a bit expensive to build. The batteries from Portsmouth went to Salisbury Plain, and the north midlands units went to Cheshire and North Wales, but I would think somebody went to North Norfolk. Something from London could have quite a wide choice of originating railways.

 

If this is all too military you could have a theatre train (there is a theatre for the holidaymakers nearby isn't there?) There are some nice photos of a Midland Railway stock train in action, with a couple of carriages, a scenery wagon and a couple of flats, all as far as I am aware, attainable from kits, and if you were unloading the painted flts would make for an interesting load..

Edited January 31, 2017 by webbcompound

[Stubby47]

Well, if you're going for a theatre train, why not the full circus ?

 

 

Of course, you'll need a manure wagon as well... (see what I did there ...)

[Fenman]

... if it appears as if CA is now to be a celebration of monarchy. That is not my intention. I view proximate historical Royals rather as part of the scene ...

 

That's a good way of putting it. Twice this month here in west Norfolk I have encountered Prince Philip on a single-track road, me driving in one direction, him heading towards me in what I think of as a horse-drawn cart but my better-informed friends tell me is a "carriage", pulled by 4 startlingly black ponies. Apparently this is some sort of sport at which he excels. 

 

On both occasions I pulled in to let him drive through; and, as he passed, he gave me a cheery wave. At least, I chose to interpret it as a cheery wave: he may just have been showing me that he had an enormous whip and that he wasn't afraid to use it. "Cheery wave" feels more appropriate to this part of Norfolk. He was alone on the driving board, the two passengers in the back appearing to me to be well-wrapped-up buxom horse-wenches, who both looked ruddy-cheeked, miserable and very cold. Doubtless they were in fact some sort of special branch security detail...

 

Paul

[TheQ]

Unit's from all over the UK went to Salisbury plain During this period for their summer excercises And post ww1 to Attend the annual Tidworth Tattoo. There is record of a Great Eastern locomotive arriving at Ludgershall Wiltshire, with it's troop train.

 There are reports of Scottish carriages arriving staying for a week or fortnight then returning with their troops back home. Trains were disembarked at Ludgershall,  or at Tidworth (a great uncle of mine was a Navi on the branches construction)

 

 Here are some  Pics from "Swindon's Other Railway" site http://swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/ which is a great source of that period photos.

 

The kilted troops marching down past the Prince of Wales Hotel are the Liverpool Scottish.

 

The troops disembarking their horses are from somewhere along LSWR lines great great granddad / great granddad's coal yard is just before the bridge over the hedge on the right.

 

The troops marching off of the platform on the southern side are from Leeds as you can see.

 

For more of those type pictures look at the above site / pictures along the line Mike Barnsley / Ludgershall or Tidworth

Edited January 31, 2017 by TheQ

[Edwardian]

Paul, I am sure that was a cheery wave!

 

Brilliant pictures, Q.

 

It fits neatly with what I was trying to post, but could not get on to the site just now.

 

EDIT: Note the bicycles in the last picture.

 

 

Of course an interesting  military variant is the "going to summer manoevers/camp" train. They can include all kinds of "foreign" stock, dependent on where the terriers come from, or the regulars are based. A typical infantry unit would have a set of old stock for ORs, a nicer first class carriage for officers, and a horsebox or two for the officer's mounts. They would be accompanied by a train of assorted flat, or low sided stock for the GS wagons, a couple of carriages for the drivers, and cattle trucks for the draft horses. Obviously cavalry, and artillery units would have different compositions. A project lurking at the back of my list would be a Garrison Artillery battery of 60pounders, only four guns needed, but lots of supporting waggons and horses so maybe a bit expensive to build. The batteries from Portsmouth went to Salisbury Plain, and the north midlands units went to Cheshire and North Wales, but I would think somebody went to North Norfolk. Something from London could have quite a wide choice of originating railways.

 

If this is all too military you could have a theatre train (there is a theatre for the holidaymakers nearby isn't there?) There are some nice photos of a Midland Railway stock train in action, with a couple of carriages, a scenery wagon and a couple of flats, all as far as I am aware, attainable from kits, and if you were unloading the painted flts would make for an interesting load..

 

I have often though of a theatre train, which, I believe, ran on Sundays for Rep Companies.  I do not think CA is large enough to warrant such traffic, though it is a great way of having foreign stock, as you say.  The company might play in Halifax one week and Norwich the next.  I do not recall seeing this regular feature of railway traffic modelled, which is a shame.

A mounted regiment might require a number of trains.  For Annual Camp, a Yeomanry Regiment would need to concentrate, as the Squadrons or Troops would be dispersed at depots throughout the County.  For instance, the real Norfolk Yeomanry C or D Squadron might have a fictitious Troop based at CA or Achingham.  This raises the possibility of a train for just a single Troop.  Bit sketchy on the Orbat of a Yeomanry Troop, peace-time establishment, in the early 1900s, but a WW1 cavalry regiment would have a war establishment including 3 sabre squadrons totalling 474 men.  There were supposed to be four troops per squadron.   Each troop had one officer, two sergeants, one artificer, and thirty other ranks.

For a single Troop you might get away with a 6-wheel luggage tri-comp, a horse box and however many cattle wagons you need for 30 or so troop horses, which begs the question how many horses would you put in a cattle wagon?

 

2?

 

3?

 

A squadron (say, 6 officers and 158 ORs) would also be reasonably feasible(!).

 

Peace-time Yeomanry establishment and turnout is likely to be lower than the wartime establishment.

 

Unit's from all over the UK went to Salisbury plain During this period for their summer excercises And post ww1 to Attend the annual Tidworth Tattoo. There is record of a Great Eastern locomotive arriving at Ludgershall Wiltshire, with it's troop train.

 There are reports of Scottish carriages arriving staying for a week or fortnight then returning with their troops back home. Trains were disembarked at Ludgershall,  or at Tidworth (a great uncle of mine was a Navi on the branches construction)

 

 Here are some  Pics from "Swindon's Other Railway" site http://swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/ which is a great source of that period photos.

mike2041.jpg

 

The kilted troops marching down past the Prince of Wales Hotel are the Liverpool Scottish.

 

mike2101.jpg

The troops disembarking their horses are from somewhere along LSWR lines great great granddad / great granddad's coal yard is just before the bridge over the hedge on the right.

 

mike2201.jpg

The troops marching off of the platform on the southern side are from Leeds as you can see.

 

For more of those type pictures look at the above site / pictures along the line Mike Barnsley / Ludgershall or Tidworth

 

Both Infantry and Cavalry regiments would travel quite far afield.  As regards Infantiers, we should not forget the volunteer/ex-militia battalions of the Norfolk Regiment.  I believe that the M&SWJR had a junction built in 1905 near Savenake for military traffic.

 

So far as the Norfolk Yeomanry was concerned, its Annual Camps in the period were various locations within the County, so you could have various Troops or Squadrons concentrating at CA, with trains provided by both GE and M&GN, or a train departing for elsewhere in the County with a single Troop.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Edwardian

[Stubby47]

For horses, this might help : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62783-cattle-wagon-loading/?p=817117

 

Mostly about cows, but some info on horses too.

[TheQ]

That would be the Wolfhall (yes as in the TV series about Henry 8) junction and Grafton Junctions just south of Savernake from the GWR Westbury to Newbury main line. There were some exchange sidings in the area as well.

 

 You Said cyclists..

 

2nd volunteers North Staffordshire regiment 1906

The Photographer had his back to the hotel, you can see the photographer had travelled a long way from his shed across the road.

Edited January 31, 2017 by TheQ

[teaky]

When I think of the Edwardian railways I think of a time when manpower was more plentiful and thus less expensive.  This allowed more time to be devoted to keeping everything clean and polished.  So locomotive and rolling stock liveries were more ornate and included more shiny bits.  With this in mind it seems a pity not to fabricate an excuse for the local yeomanry to turn out in full ceremonial kit and some kind of royal connection sounds like an ideal excuse.

[Nearholmer]

Regarding the strength of local yeomanry in peace time: ever-dwindling seems to be the story.

 

After working out that the sword had belonged to a YC, I did a bit of further reading yesterday evening, because I didn't really know what 'yeomanry' were/are. There were multiple reorganisations of the YC arrangements, training, and recruitment, in the latter part of the C19th and early C20th, because numbers and competence had fallen dangerously low, which might explain why The King had to raise a company in Norfolk.

 

I wonder if your estimates of how many might be based at CA might be too large. How many people are there in CAs local hunt? Divide by four or five , maybe?

 

K

[TheQ]

My thought would be not that they are too small, the countryside and small villages often had a much larger population than they have now.  The local farm surrounding my house now has no farmworkers. But in the 1901, the village recorded around 30 farmworkers...

 

As to local wanting yeomanry in full dress uniform the Kings visit previously mentioned would be a perfect excuse, the road shown in the pictures I've posted wasn't graced by a visit of the King until 1917

[uax6]

Of course an interesting  military variant is the "going to summer manoevers/camp" train. They can include all kinds of "foreign" stock, dependent on where the terriers come from, or the regulars are based. A typical infantry unit would have a set of old stock for ORs, a nicer first class carriage for officers, and a horsebox or two for the officer's mounts. They would be accompanied by a train of assorted flat, or low sided stock for the GS wagons, a couple of carriages for the drivers, and cattle trucks for the draft horses. Obviously cavalry, and artillery units would have different compositions. A project lurking at the back of my list would be a Garrison Artillery battery of 60pounders, only four guns needed, but lots of supporting waggons and horses so maybe a bit expensive to build. The batteries from Portsmouth went to Salisbury Plain, and the north midlands units went to Cheshire and North Wales, but I would think somebody went to North Norfolk. Something from London could have quite a wide choice of originating railways.

 

If this is all too military you could have a theatre train (there is a theatre for the holidaymakers nearby isn't there?) There are some nice photos of a Midland Railway stock train in action, with a couple of carriages, a scenery wagon and a couple of flats, all as far as I am aware, attainable from kits, and if you were unloading the painted flts would make for an interesting load..

 

There is a feature in one of the Great Eastern Journals on the arrival of troops at a Station, Thetford West I think.... Great photos, and a nice little station too. Worth trying to get hold of a copy.

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Also, you could of course have Barnum and Bailey's Greatest Show on Earth visit. They certainly did a tour that included King's Lynn, and there are drawings for each of the cars that the trains had.... Now that would be a talking point!

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

For the benefit of Compound2632, and any others of a republican persuasion, it might be borne in mind that yours truly once held the Queen's Commission and swore an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty! No offence taken, however.

 

My apologies for any misunderstanding: my intention was simply to draw attention to the cyclic nature of this thread. As far as royalty goes, I'm rather more a Jacobite than a Jacobin.

[Edwardian]

My apologies for any misunderstanding: my intention was simply to draw attention to the cyclic nature of this thread. As far as royalty goes, I'm rather more a Jacobite than a Jacobin.

 

So, it's more the choice of Royalty rather than Royalty per se that's the problem? 

 

I am simply amazed that you are blind to the charm, sophistication and grace of the Hanoverian monarchs!

 

No apologies necessary and sorry that such a mountain was made of your dunghill.

[Compound2632]

So, it's more the choice of Royalty rather than Royalty per se that's the problem? 

 

I am simply amazed that you are blind to the charm, sophistication and grace of the Hanoverian monarchs!

 

No apologies necessary and sorry that such a mountain was made of your dunghill.

 

I tried Hanoverian charm sophistication grace in Google images, expecting to get the Prince Regent (!) but turned up nothing but dressage horses... I'm sorry, James, but it seem that at every turn manure is only a post away.

[Edwardian]

When I think of the Edwardian railways I think of a time when manpower was more plentiful and thus less expensive.  This allowed more time to be devoted to keeping everything clean and polished.  So locomotive and rolling stock liveries were more ornate and included more shiny bits.  With this in mind it seems a pity not to fabricate an excuse for the local yeomanry to turn out in full ceremonial kit and some kind of royal connection sounds like an ideal excuse.

 

Exactly so, and when you see the barking Review Order adopted by the Norfolk Yeomanry in 1905, you, too, will be glad of HRH Royal Pretext! 

 

Once into the Twentieth Century, the opportunities for colourful uniforms are reduced.  CA does not offer the opportunity for the opening of a local Assizes, a traditional gig for the Yeomanry.

 

 

Regarding the strength of local yeomanry in peace time: ever-dwindling seems to be the story.

 

After working out that the sword had belonged to a YC, I did a bit of further reading yesterday evening, because I didn't really know what 'yeomanry' were/are. There were multiple reorganisations of the YC arrangements, training, and recruitment, in the latter part of the C19th and early C20th, because numbers and competence had fallen dangerously low, which might explain why The King had to raise a company in Norfolk.

 

I wonder if your estimates of how many might be based at CA might be too large. How many people are there in CAs local hunt? Divide by four or five , maybe?

 

K

 

 

My thought would be not that they are too small, the countryside and small villages often had a much larger population than they have now.  The local farm surrounding my house now has no farmworkers. But in the 1901, the village recorded around 30 farmworkers...

 

As to local wanting yeomanry in full dress uniform the Kings visit previously mentioned would be a perfect excuse, the road shown in the pictures I've posted wasn't graced by a visit of the King until 1917

 

Indeed, the figures I quoted are the wartime establishment strengths.  Peacetime Yeomanry establishments are likely lower and turnout even lower (as I can testify!). 

 

CA or Achingham could quite feasibly be the centre for a Troop, coming in from a reasonably large area.  For example, C Squadron had, at various times, various drill stations including at East Dereham, Wramplingham, Hillington, Rougham, Burnham Market, Fransham, Watton & Wells.  

 

 

Also, you could of course have Barnum and Bailey's Greatest Show on Earth visit. They certainly did a tour that included King's Lynn, and there are drawings for each of the cars that the trains had.... Now that would be a talking point!

 

Andy G

 

Indeed.  Or, by 1905, 'Buffalo Bill' Cody's Wild West Show?

 

Yee-Ha.

[teaky]

Indeed.  Or, by 1905, 'Buffalo Bill' Cody's Wild West Show?

 

A set each of Airfix Cowboys and Indians and you're sorted for figures. 

[uax6]

I can supply the drawings for the rail vehicles.... Sounds like you haven't got a choice here...

 

Andy G