Castle Aching

[uax6]

I would guess it was around the first world war, darker liveries being less noticeable. Its recorded that the HR went full plain green (which ever green was cheapest!) and when the fully lined out LMS red was specified after grouping, Lochgorm were very enthusiastic to have something nice to paint again....

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

That Ffestiniog Railway livery is how I remember them "when I were a lad". I believe it was abandoned because the railway decided it was too complex/expensive/time-consuming to maintain. It was a handsome livery though.

 

I wonder when the "golden age" of carriage painting was. Because I get the impression simplification was the thing even pre-WW1. For example the GWR went from a very complex (but rather lovely) version of chocolate and cream to simple lake, albeit lined out. The GC went from brown and cream (lined out) to simple teak. Though of course some companies carried on with the same complex style - the LNWR for example. 

 

Indeed, and the best, IMHO, Brighton livery, umber and white, was short-lived and went in the years leading up to the war.

 

I like two-tone liveries with the upper panels all lined out, always have. 

 

I needed a distinct look for the West Norfolk.  Green suggested itself as a main colour, because it would be very different from anything else around in Norfolk at the time.  Until the 1880s, the GE and its rival, the Eastern & Midland, had green locomotives, but for around two decades, by 1905, the GE has had Ultramarine Blue.  The Eastern & Midland went chocolate brown, and then the M&GNJ, which emerged in 1893, adopted Golden Gorse (reverting to brown much later).

 

So green, though a very common locomotive livery generally, would, in Edwardian Norfolk, give the WN a very distinct identity.

 

It seemed logical to carry this over to the carriages.  In conjunction with green locomotives, a two-colour carriage livery could use a red, crimson, dark lake, plum, umber, chocolate or green, but not blue, for the lower panels.  Green seemed sensible given it was the locomotive livery. Upper panels are necessarily in the white, grey or cream ranges.

 

A two-colour carriage livery also helps keep the WN visually distinct in its area of operation.  GE coaches were varnished teak (unlined), and the M&GN used monochrome coaches from its constituents and ex-MR crimson and ex-GN teak in their original liveries. 

 

Painting the waist panels in the lighter colour is my dodge for de-Westernising donors such as the Tri-ang Clerestories and the Ratio 4-wheelers.  GWR waist panels were chocolate in the various chocolate and cream liveries.

 

This is all because I wanted the splendour and variety of the pre-Grouping scene, though I fear I may have over-reached myself.  For a first layout, perhaps I would have been better building a couple of Ratio 4-wheelers, out-shopping them in heavily weathered all-over brown or green and calling it a Light Railway c.1930! 

 

While I do need to improve my painting, all I need to do with this sample is to line it out well enough to be able to judge the livery, and to get some much needed practise!

 

So, albeit still rather hurriedly, I've had another go.

 

It now passes the 3' test (just!).  My eyesight is troubling me the first time, and I think it is time to invest in a magnifying glass for this sort of work! 

 

Anyway, I conclude that this is the sort of green I'm after, though it is a little bright, though the picture on the right has just been taken in direct and bright sunlight, which does not aid the comparison.  With the acrylic version I started off with a similar intensity, but calmed it down with a touch of black.  Here is the spray-painted sample compared with the hand-painted original.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[uax6]

Whats the effect of spraying that green over a red undercoat? I think you might get a nice shade as that one seems not to sit very well on that coach somehow, I don't know why. Maybe I'm expecting to see a darker shade?

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Whats the effect of spraying that green over a red undercoat? I think you might get a nice shade as that one seems not to sit very well on that coach somehow, I don't know why. Maybe I'm expecting to see a darker shade?

 

Andy G

 

Interesting.  I have some of the Halford's red primer, so can try that.  Thanks.

 

I like this green, but it is too bright.  Imagine a whole NPC, such as a horse-box, in such a green!?!

 

I am thinking about this British Racing or "Brooklands" green.  Current thought is that I could have this as the coach green and for the borders on the locos, with lined panels of the brighter green set against it.

 

But, I'll try your suggestion before giving up on the other one.

[uax6]

Brooklands looks better, but I'm interested to see what that light green will look over the red undercoat...

 

Andy G

[phil_sutters]

 

I am thinking about this British Racing or "Brooklands" green.  

An excuse to show off my Great Aunt Marjory in the pits at Brooklands with a couple of the inter-war period motor aces.

This note has been attached to my ipernity posting of this shot - 

• 10.9.2015 I have now had it confirmed by Andrew Lewis,  Curator of the Brooklands Museum & Archive, that this is indeed Brooklands. He says of the figures on the right 'A second look at the photo leads me to recognise Sammy Davis, the noted Bentley driver next to Seagrave.' Henry Seagrave is in driver's overalls on the right.

Edited May 4, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Donw]

Well it depends. For the first trial of lining I did on these sort of coaches, I just did the black. The body colour was crimson lake, and I went on the basis that at 3 foot away (something like 250 scale feet) that you wouldn't be able to see a 1/4" yellow/gold line anyway. Being in work I haven't any photos of the end result, but will take some in the morning if you want.

 

It is possible (so I'm told) to use a bow pen to line, so I would line the yellow first onto the bolections (day one the verticals, day two the horizontals) and then the black over the top (again day 1 the verticals, day two the horizontals). Mind you with a steady hand, a fine brush and a magnifier, you could probably do it all by brush, but again over four days. Sadly you can't rush lining!

 

Andy G

 I know Alan Brackenborough used one. I remember him saying he had ground the tips down but then just took the edge off so it would not mark the paint. He also said he preferred to line on gloss paint as it spread less than on matt. A key point is getting the point for the lining the right constituency I think he said like milk but I am not sure. He does the straight lines with the bow pen but will usually add the corners with a brush. When the lining is dry a small brush of the main colour can hide any fat bits or blobs.

I have acquired a lining tool which has a cup with a couple of different sized tubes (caters for different scales and different lining widths) but have not used it in anger.

Another good modeller Martin Brent advised me to add a spot of body colour to the varnish which tones down the lining without affecting the body colour.

 

These are things I had been told by friends who know what they are doing it may not be quite as easy as they make it sound.

 

 

One thing that does help is a rest for your hand. A L shaped piece about the same thickness as the model would do. 

 

My coaches bought from Chris Bolton have just the black lines on the beading and no fine brown line in the cream panels but it doesn't show unless you look for it.

 

Don

 

edit something I forgot Alan uses cellulose for the body colour

Edited May 4, 2017 by Donw

[simon0r]

This is Halfords 'Rover Brooklands Green'. Terrible paint job on an old battery case but it gives some idea of the colour. Under indoor lighting it looks darker and colder.

 

[Edwardian]

So dissatisfied was I with my abysmal efforts at lining that I went out and bought a tin of enamel paint and a magnifying glass.  The former behaved a little better on the slippery cellulose surface, but I think any improvement was down to the magnifying glass, which was transformative.  I could actually see what I was doing!

 

I grow old, I grow old.

I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled.

Do I dare to eat a peach?

etc

 

Magnified further on the photograph, I can see a couple of slips, but it is not bad and I feel more confident.

 

The real test will be when I try to add the black, though.

 

This is the Brooklands Green sample, and that will need another coat.

[uax6]

Looking much better already! Has the yellow gone around the side of the mouldings, so that all you need to do is paint the top with the black (Or rule the black on with a bow pen)?

 

I'm not looking forward to lining locos, I feel I need to get some of those trendy magnifying glasses for that!

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

Has the yellow gone around the side of the mouldings, so that all you need to do is paint the top with the black ?

 

 

 

Thanks, Andy

 

I think so!

[Donw]

Much better. Good lighting and a magnifying aid are worthwhile for such tasks.

Don

[uax6]

Which leads to the question which magnifier to buy? I were reading specs now, and was just thinking that a set of magnifiers may make my life easier. I have some constraints though, as my workshop is in work (the signalbox table) I have to carry everything up and down stairs and in the car. I would like something that is fairly small and useable with my specs. Any ideas anyone?

 

Andy G

[Northroader]

Here's one picture, warts and all. I'm using a bow pen, (right handed) supported against a steel set square straight edge. Normally left hand would be holding this steady instead of clicking the camera. The upper half of the coach is painted cream, the mouldings done "gold", then the tops picked out in the green body colour, the corners done with the pen. You are allowed to go around again, and again, when dry, touching up the edges where one colour has blobbed over another. Paint is Phoenix enamel, BR multiple unit green and Arriva cream, gold a concoction. Just keep on practising.

[Edwardian]

Which leads to the question which magnifier to buy? I were reading specs now, and was just thinking that a set of magnifiers may make my life easier. I have some constraints though, as my workshop is in work (the signalbox table) I have to carry everything up and down stairs and in the car. I would like something that is fairly small and useable with my specs. Any ideas anyone?

 

Andy G

 

Well, I just grabbed what I could in the course of my afternoon.  There is not a lot of choice in a small town like Barney and we're very lucky that the department store has a hobby section.

 

There was a choice of one - not the highest quality, but it cost £3 and it makes things bigger!

 

Any suggestions for an upgrade in due course would be gratefully received.

[Edwardian]

Here's one picture, warts and all. I'm using a bow pen, (right handed) supported against a steel set square straight edge. Normally left hand would be holding this steady instead of clicking the camera. The upper half of the coach is painted cream, the mouldings done "gold", then the tops picked out in the green body colour, the corners done with the pen. You are allowed to go around again, and again, when dry, touching up the edges where one colour has blobbed over another. Paint is Phoenix enamel, BR multiple unit green and Arriva cream, gold a concoction. Just keep on practising.IMG_1035.JPG

 

I do seem to have picked a popular livery!

 

Like the green, and the combination of colours works well.

 

I must take these in stages.  So far I have four 4-wheelers ready to paint.  Next will be five 6-wheelers, the body shells of which are constructed and which need filing and filling, and, of course, everything under the solebar. Finally, I think I have just enough brake end parts for a very short 4-wheel full brake, but have not started this yet.

 

So, 10 vehicles.

 

Then I might consider a break in the form of some GE teak before attempting any more WN coaches!

[uax6]

Could you mount that on one of those old doctor's headband mirror thingys?

 

Andy G

[Northroader]

The colour scheme is faux Highland Railway. I've made the green a bit lighter than it should be, actually I'm quite fond of the br dmu green, it gets used on other jobs where really it shouldn't be, mainly to add a bit of brightness, where the proper green would look a bit dark on a model. The Arriva cream I like for not being too yellow.

[teaky]

Which leads to the question which magnifier to buy? I were reading specs now, and was just thinking that a set of magnifiers may make my life easier. I have some constraints though, as my workshop is in work (the signalbox table) I have to carry everything up and down stairs and in the car. I would like something that is fairly small and useable with my specs. Any ideas anyone?

 

Andy G

One suggestion: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/22w-fluorescent-magnifying-craft-lamp-a29ff?intcid=homepage:slider-3:magnifying-glass

 

I bought one of these after a few people on RMweb recommended them.

Edited May 4, 2017 by teaky

[Andy Hayter]

Which leads to the question which magnifier to buy? I were reading specs now, and was just thinking that a set of magnifiers may make my life easier. I have some constraints though, as my workshop is in work (the signalbox table) I have to carry everything up and down stairs and in the car. I would like something that is fairly small and useable with my specs. Any ideas anyone?

 

Andy G

 

I was quite short sighted and that gave me a great modelling advantage that I could bring a model up to within 3 inches of my face and work clearly on it, if I was working without my specs...

 

Then I developed cataracts and the surgeon did a great job.  My short-sightedness has been eliminated and I only now need glasses to read, and even these are a relatively weak prescription.  This means that I now cannot work on models as I once did.

 

However I have found that buying a cheap pair of strong (much to strong for any normal use) reading glasses* means that I can revert to the old ways of working with the model a couple of inches from my face.  The big drawback however is that if I then want to find something on the workbench, I cannot see it through the glasses.

 

*The sort of things that you find in ordinary Boots or similar stores.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[Guy Rixon]

For gold lining, one can use ink in a technical-drawing pen. It's at least an order of magnitude easier than a bow pen.

 

I've used a bright-yellow ink mixed with a tiny amount of black. This gives a reasonable approximation of gold lining. The only problem is that the ink will bead on some paint surfaces instead of going down evenly.

[St Enodoc]

Well, I just grabbed what I could in the course of my afternoon.  There is not a lot of choice in a small town like Barney and we're very lucky that the department store has a hobby section.

 

There was a choice of one - not the highest quality, but it cost £3 and it makes things bigger!

 

Any suggestions for an upgrade in due course would be gratefully received.

I've used one of those for years and never found a need for anything more complicated/expensive.

[Compound2632]

In my teenage carriage-building days, I did the usual thing of butting up two Ratio T47 brake ends to make a cod GW 4-wheel brake van. I put the passenger ends together on the second underframe to make a centre-brake third:

 

 

I remember at the time deciding it was a Maryport & Carlisle coach but realise now I may actually have inadvertently built a West Norfolk vehicle.

 

It's perhaps more olive and spilt milk than green and cream - in fact I think the upper panels are Precision LNWR white - and I think isn't far off the actual M&C livery which was carefully differentiated from its neighbours' plum and spilt milk (LNW) and blue and ditto (Furness).

 

Somehow this was as far as it got - roofless, interior-less, and without the green or black lining over the gold or mahogany bolections. The gold lining was one of those gold marker pens - I think one snag may have been to get any other paint to adhere to it. I have some notes that I made from one of Coachman's threads (now deleted I think) which I hope he won't mind being quoted here:

 

"Railways were fond of using the word gold when in fact it was a paint mixed to resemble gold. A bright colour it wasn't. On the modelling front, you could use Humbrol Cream No.7 and Humbrol yellow No.69 mixed 50/50. If you are using a draughtsman's ruling pen, let the new tins of paint settle before pouring off the oil into a spare container. Then stir the 'putty' that is left and pour in small amounts of the oil until the paint flows out of your bow pen and stays put without spreading out of control. Then mix the two colours together. Finally add a very small touch of black to distress the colour. This same lining colour can also be used for BR maroon. I happen to used cellulose paint mixed to match the above colour."

 

I haven't tried this yet but Coachman said he'd been doing it for fifty years, so who's to quarrel with that?

Edited May 4, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

In my teenage carriage-building days, I did the usual thing of butting up two Ratio T47 brake ends to make a cod GW 4-wheel brake van. I put the passenger ends together on the second underframe to make a centre-brake third:

 

M&C brake third.JPG

 

I remember at the time deciding it was a Maryport & Carlisle coach but realise now I may actually have inadvertently built a West Norfolk vehicle.

 

It's perhaps more olive and spilt milk than green and cream - in fact I think the upper panels are Precision LNWR white - and I think isn't far off the actual M&C livery which was carefully differentiated from its neighbours' plum and spilt milk (LNW) and blue and ditto (Furness).

 

Somehow this was as far as it got - roofless, interior-less, and without the green or black lining over the gold or mahogany bolections. The gold lining was one of those gold marker pens - I think one snag may have been to get any other paint to adhere to it. I have some notes that I made from one of Coachman's threads (now deleted I think) which I hope he won't mind being quoted here:

 

"Railways were fond of using the word gold when in fact it was a paint mixed to resemble gold. A bright colour it wasn't. On the modelling front, you could use Humbrol Cream No.7 and Humbrol yellow No.69 mixed 50/50. If you are using a draughtsman's ruling pen, let the new tins of paint settle before pouring off the oil into a spare container. Then stir the 'putty' that is left and pour in small amounts of the oil until the paint flows out of your bow pen and stays put without spreading out of control. Then mix the two colours together. Finally add a very small touch of black to distress the colour. This same lining colour can also be used for BR maroon. I happen to used cellulose paint mixed to match the above colour."

 

I haven't tried this yet but Coachman said he'd been doing it for fifty years, so who's to quarrel with that?

 

That is a great conversion - you really should finish it!

 

 

 

 

I remember at the time deciding it was a Maryport & Carlisle coach but realise now I may actually have inadvertently built a West Norfolk vehicle.

 

 

 

Indeed!

 

My other option is the Ratio 4-wheel coaches.  The panel style is a good match for the Tri-angs and, of course, they share the same GW-style grab handles. 

 

In terms of coach body styles, I have suggested that the small radius curves to all 4 corners is, for the West Norfolk, a style introduced during the 1880s.  Before then the square lower corner/large radius upper corner style, which was found on several companies' carriages and which persisted very late on the GE, would have been the norm.

 

This puts my 4-wheel Triang rake at mid-to-late 1880s and the similar 6-wheel rake at late '80s/early 1890s, I would say.  Both sets 'modern' and gas-lit from new.

 

The Ratio 4-wheelers could represent the final phase of development, say mid-late '90s/Turn of the Century. I could retain the semi-elliptical roof profile, as this was a more 'modern' roof profile, with, say, the LSWR going over to it in the '90s.   It would, however, be equally legitimate to retain an arc-roof profile for the WN stock, so I imagine I could swop out the ends and roofs for those of the Ratio Midland suburban coaches.

 

Not wanting to reproduce anything too close to the familiar GW diagrams, I would want to do some cutting and shutting, and I really like what you have done to produce a Centre Brake Third, an idea that had crossed my mind, but which did not fit with the Tri-ang bits available at the time.  Indeed, I think this is a configuration that should be represented on the WN, there being 4 conventional Brake Thirds with luggage compartments (2 4-wheel and 2 6-wheel) on the stocks.  

 

I wonder about an arc-roof version of the Ratio 4-Wheel Composite (First/Second) combined with your Centre Brake Third.  This would be a handy portion that I could add to 3 or 4 coach sets to make up a longer train?

 

The bonus is a second, and longer, Full Brake.  I could then potentially transfer the short Full Brake to the Bishop Lynn Tramway, or simply find a use for 2 on the 'mainline'.

[Donw]

I bought a mini table lamp from Squires  http://www.squirestools.com/files/12-11.pdf top rigth page 161.  I find the light makes a real difference. I never found much use for the extra magnifying spot until I needed to thread 2mm plastic chairs onto the rail with the rail being 1mmx 0,5mm you can imagine the chairs are quite small. However I now need reading glasses about +2 which I buy at Poundland I also bought some +3.5 ones which are very good for modelling and I can use them with the table lamp too.

 

Don