Castle Aching

[Donw]

Beautiful (or, possibly, bootiful), and it puts my humble efforts to shame.

 

Still, we all need to start somewhere!

 

I dont think shame is the right word. I have been admiring Trevor work for a long time. You have not been actively modelling very long I believe. I think Da Vinci had a bit of practice before painting the Mona Lisa.

 

Recognise your weakness but know you have made a very good start and will no doubt increase your skills as you do more.

 

Don

[Edwardian]

Finally caught up.  I am rationing my time on RMWeb as it limits my modelling time, or time to do anything else.  This thread is compulsory though, but not in enough quantity to keep up. 

 

I too prefer the darker green.  Badges would be fun.  If we did it properly we could have people driving around Norfolk looking for the original.......

 

Lining.  Lining transfers, or is that just another unneeded expense?

 

I found the post on Victorian colours very informative.  There is a discussion about what colour Cambrian coaches were.  We know it was 'Bronze Green'.  There appears to be only three standard shades of this.  I have chosen the middle one, although others think it might be the dark one.

 

Talking of the Cambrian, they simplified their livery in 1908, from two colours with lining to all over green, to save money on the painting, and I assume the painters.

 

Saloon coaches.  I have always felt that carriages should have compartments.  Saloons seem too much like Tourist Opens, which apparently were introduced because the travelling public preferred them.  I mean what do the travelling public know about what a 'proper' railway coach should be like?  They will be wanting toilets that work next, and trains that run on time!     Any old way, as my Nan would say, all the talk of Family Saloons has set me thinking.  I can have any number turning up on my layout from all over the place, complete with families and servants.  Now a question.  Third Class Saloons, who would use them?  I know that on the Cambrian they were very popular with certain football teams to take them to their away matches, who else would use them?

 

Chris, I can only add that I think Third Saloons, and, of course, similar 'open' First Saloons are for day trips.  The examples I thought of were races and works outings. As has been mentioned, they were often called 'Picnic Saloons'.

 

My knowledge of Cambrian Railways coaching stock is limited to what I can glean from Mountford's Register of GW Absorbed Stock, from which I gather that at that time the Cambrian had 9 Saloons, but, of course, the term Saloon covered a number of distinct types.  

 

Two, from 1898, feature 1 First and 2 Third Class compartments; potential Family Saloons?

 

I note that one Saloon was an ex-Highland Railway vehicle, which boasted 1 First and 1 Third Class compartment, Guard and Luggage.  This one seems certainly suited to an extended journey by a well-to-do family accompanied by their servants.  As you say, with Family Saloons, you can have any number turning up from anywhere. Perhaps someone might take a trip in this Cambrian, ex-Highland, Saloon to west Norfolk!

 

Two 2-compartment First Saloons (1889 & 1891) could have been picnic Saloons.  Similarly, a 3-compartment Third Saloon (1860) and 3 'open' Third Saloons (1892 & 1895), could be Picnic Saloons.

[Nearholmer]

I hope this doesn't detract too much from the currently serious tone of the thread, but I thought the Directors might wish to see a preliminary sketch for an heraldic blazon.

 

The theme is the rich land, and productive sea, of the county, so:

 

- the device is surmounted by a Turkey (close); and,

 

- quartered to display a Turnip (Swedish), a Turbot (naiant), a Turf (vert), and an object suggested by the West Norfolk Farmers Manure Association (steaming).

 

The surrounding garter cannot, of course, be perfected until the company motto has been decided upon.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

Bootiful

[ChrisN]

Chris, I can only add that I think Third Saloons, and, of course, similar 'open' First Saloons are for day trips.  The examples I thought of were races and works outings. As has been mentioned, they were often called 'Picnic Saloons'.

 

My knowledge of Cambrian Railways coaching stock is limited to what I can glean from Mountford's Register of GW Absorbed Stock, from which I gather that at that time the Cambrian had 9 Saloons, but, of course, the term Saloon covered a number of distinct types.  

 

Two, from 1898, feature 1 First and 2 Third Class compartments; potential Family Saloons?

 

I note that one Saloon was an ex-Highland Railway vehicle, which boasted 1 First and 1 Third Class compartment, Guard and Luggage.  This one seems certainly suited to an extended journey by a well-to-do family accompanied by their servants.  As you say, with Family Saloons, you can have any number turning up from anywhere. Perhaps someone might take a trip in this Cambrian, ex-Highland, Saloon to west Norfolk!

 

Two 2-compartment First Saloons (1889 & 1891) could have been picnic Saloons.  Similarly, a 3-compartment Third Saloon (1860) and 3 'open' Third Saloons (1892 & 1895), could be Picnic Saloons.

 

I have two drawings of Cambrian Saloons.  One from 1860 which is really a Picnic Saloon, the other is of two variants of a First Saloon from about 1890, the variants being internal, which have both a Toilet and a luggage compartment.  There is a separate small compartment but this appears to be First Class accommodation as well.  The First would appear to be a Family Saloon, but maybe they put the Butler in the compartment at the end. 

 

The HR Saloon is the Duke of Argyle's Saloon and I may have a drawing somewhere although it is too late for me as it arrived after 1895.

[phil_sutters]

The surrounding garter cannot, of course, be perfected until the company motto has been decided upon.

I think you might find that railway companies tend to put their names in the garter rather than a company motto - like this

 

or more tastefully

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by phil_sutters

[uax6]

 

The HR Saloon is the Duke of Argyle's Saloon and I may have a drawing somewhere although it is too late for me as it arrived after 1895.

The Duke of Sutherlands actually... I've got a drawing of this first saloon, although far too early for me!

 

Andy g

[Edwardian]

The Duke of Sutherlands actually... I've got a drawing of this first saloon, although far too early for me!

 

Andy g

 

This one?

 

http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/23661/1/EN23661-the-duke-of.htm

[Adams442T]

Re post #3531.  Which is excellent in many ways!  The 'turf' should be rendered in green, not brown, to be heraldically correct.  

 

The misappropriation of 'garters' by railway companies was a strange omission for the College of Heralds, being usually so 'hot' on  such things, and prosecutions always followed up.  I remember a firm of solicitors in Leominster being prosecuted for displaying a faux heraldic shield on their signs.  The resultant bad publicity lost them a lot of business.

 

It has long been the practice of the Kings of Arms to grant crests in the form of roundels, which can be painted with the device.  The Mercury rising through steam of the London and North Eastern Railway for instance.  However the 'arms' are depicted it is apparent that they are more like seals, which were commonly depicted with a surrounding belt, often bearing a motto or inscription.  Boutell's and Woodward's treatises on arms show nothing for railway companies however.

 

 Arms of corporate bodies, like railway companies, though, are often regarded as 'bogus', or official arms which have been adopted without authority, and which strictly speaking they are not entitled to.  Scotland, due to the powers invested in the Lord Lyon, is much more pro-active in bringing prosecutions against offenders.  

 

In the 'Pageant of Heraldry' by Colonel H.C.B. Rogers it does show, "The Armorial Achievement of the Great Northern Railway (Ireland)" and he says only, "There are certain heraldic objections to the arms used by this railway, but they are of interest as being typical of the designs adopted by the old private companies, and they make a very handsome addition to the attractive livery of the Great Northern's locomotives and carriages."

 

So it would seem that there is little to prevent the adoption of a crest by The West Norfolk Railway Company, though l would suggest that the pile of ordure might be best avoided......

It is said, by Rogers, that the London and North Western had such a mass of ornamental scroll work that the whole design looked like a green vegetable.  Perhaps that's why the engines bearing this device were nick-named  'Cauliflowers'.....................................

Edited May 8, 2017 by Adams442T

[Nearholmer]

"In the 'Pageant of Heraldry' by Colonel H.C.B. Rogers does show, "The Armorial Achievement of the Great Northern Railway (Ireland)"

 

Could be that he snuck a railway example in because he was a serious railway enthusiast, and railway author. I've got a dim recollection that he was a member of either the Railway Executive, BTC, or BRB at some point, too, but that may be a case of false memory syndrome.

 

I did specify Turf (vert); what colour heraldic turbot ought to be, I'm less sure. Murry, which is a sort of purple-brown, maybe?

 

The cauliflower comes from the Prince of Wales' feathers, which were displayed on the centre splashers of the locos, and do, indeed, look remarkably like said brassica. [Edit: maybe that isn't right; maybe it was the entire LNWR heraldic device on the splasher ...... I will ask my pal who is an LNWRac next time I see him.]

 

K

Edited May 8, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

"In the 'Pageant of Heraldry' by Colonel H.C.B. Rogers does show, "The Armorial Achievement of the Great Northern Railway (Ireland)"

 

Could be that he snuck a railway example in because he was a serious railway enthusiast, and railway author. I've got a dim recollection that he was a member of either the Railway Executive, BTC, or BRB at some point, too, but that may be a case of false memory syndrome.

 

I did specify Turf (vert); what colour heraldic turbot ought to be, I'm less sure. Murry, which is a sort of purple-brown, maybe?

 

The cauliflower comes from the Prince of Wales' feathers, which were displayed on the centre splashers of the locos, and do, indeed, look remarkably like said brassica.

 

K

 

Your recollection serves you well: http://www.steamindex.com/library/rogers.htm

[Adams442T]

You're correct in that Murray or Sanguine, as it is also known, is indeed a reddish-purple.  They are generally known as 'stains' owing to their use in abatements of honour, that is marks of disgrace.

 

Perhaps more of use when applied to the 'ordure' rather than the turbot....................

 

The correct heraldic term to be applied to the Turbot should be 'proper', used when any living thing or inanimate is depicted in its natural colours.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Adams442T

[phil_sutters]

Re post #3531.  Which is excellent in many ways!  The 'turf' should be rendered in green, not brown, to be heraldically correct.  

 

 

Thanks for the kind comment. I doodled the 'arms' at the dead of night, without bothering to get my heraldry books out, so there are no pretensions to accuracy in the colour department. I have a feeling that the wording on the garter should be continuous, rather than in two halves, with the lettering on both being more or less the right (normal) way up. Unfortunately my software only does upper and lower arcs not complete circles of lettering. I could have played around with the lower one, using an upper arc then swinging it round through 180 degrees. It's all a bit academic as 4mm scale crests are little more than neat arrangements of spots of colour. I know - hand-painted a number of SDJR crests on my coaches 50 years ago!

Edited May 8, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Edwardian]

I think you might find that railway companies tend to put their names in the garter rather than a company motto - like this

WNRC arms with dung 600px.jpg

 

or more tastefully

 

WNRC arms with turkey 600px.jpg

 

Great work, Phil, though I confess I had in mind something more like this!

[Adams442T]

'Like' seems an inadequate response to Phil's excellent postings..... l feel we should have a 'superb!' button instead!

[Edwardian]

'Like' seems an inadequate response to Phil's excellent postings..... l feel we should have a 'superb!' button instead!

 

Indeed.  I admire the ability to create such images.  My 'old tech' method might survive being shrunk to 4mm scale, but it certainly did not benefit from being reproduced larger than actual size; the beauty of these computer images is that they are so neat.

 

Mind you, there is a limit to how satirical I want to go, even in a tiny image on a coach side, and, so, I thought over lunch I'd sketch up what I meant about a quartered shield within the belt. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Much more dignified.

 

I apologise for my effort.

 

K

[Compound2632]

The Great Western had to abandon its misappropriation of the arms of London and Bristol after giving its use of them too much publicity in celebrating the centenary of the incorporation of the company - cue the shirtbutton. Most companies seem to have got away with such goings-on at least in the Victorian era - the Midland is a case in point, with arms cobbled together from the six cities served by the original constituents and the Bristol line constituents. I believe the Great Central got a proper grant of arms when it reinvented itself from the M&SL - did the LNER follow suit? The LMS was more cautious and simply used the national badges - in a manner that had already started to be used in the internal decoration of some Midland & Glasgow & South Western Joint Stock dining carriages.

 

In Scotland, the Caledonian boldly appropriated the Royal Arms of Scotland and stuck the company name underneath - if Lyon King of Arms was so hot on such matters, how did the Caley get away with it? Nemo me impune lacessit...

[Edwardian]

Much more dignified.

 

I apologise for my effort.

 

K

 

Don't.  The humour was much appreciated.

 

Part of the tension in a line like the West Norfolk is balancing the natural, and entirely laudable, tendency towards whimsy, and destroying the illusion that the railway might actually have existed!

 

Put another way, at what point does willing suspension of disbelief become impossible?

 

We have a village called Castle Aching, an inn called the Dodo, a Director and local landowner called Lord Erstwhile, a lurking pyramid theme and an appropriate PO Wagon (your fault, of course), and the  even more improbable commercial enterprise, the Norfolk Fish Oil & Guano Co.

 

I just think a turd on a shield might be pushing our luck too far!

[Shadow]

If Lord Erstwhile was a major sponsor/shareholder perhaps a Dodo instead of the Turkey.

[uax6]

This one?

 

http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/23661/1/EN23661-the-duke-of.htm

Yes, I'm sure I've got the drawing somewhere...

 

Andy g

[Adams442T]

In Scotland, the Caledonian boldly appropriated the Royal Arms of Scotland and stuck the company name underneath - if Lyon King of Arms was so hot on such matters, how did the Caley get away with it? Nemo me impune lacessit...

 

In fact the Lord Lyon did approve the use of the complete Scottish Royal achievement including the jewel and the motto of the Order of the Thistle, and forming part of the design a small scroll inscribed "Caledonian Railway Company"! 

[Edwardian]

Yes, I'm sure I've got the drawing somewhere...

 

Andy g

 

Well, according to the book, it has the date 1899,which I take to be the year it came to the Cambrian, and was not withdrawn until 1931, so it would certainly have been available for hire by an affluent family from Cambrian territory wishing to visit Norfolk in the spring of 1905.

[ChrisN]

The Duke of Sutherlands actually... I've got a drawing of this first saloon, although far too early for me!

 

Andy g

 

Well, I knew it was somewhere north of Watford.

[phil_sutters]

Great work, Phil, though I confess I had in mind something more like this!

or this - colours are adjustable

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by phil_sutters