Castle Aching

[DonB]

Just came across these 3-d printed ones on shapeways.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/7S4WC5A6T/early-1860s-nlr-north-london-railway-coach-set

 

 

Just off to try and find an online copy of "The Engineer" 1869!

 

Etched pixels is here on RMweb. No direct dealings with him but he offered to help when I was looking for a sheave for the cables on a Funicular. 

[£1.38]

Apparently there were devastating floods in East Anglia in 1912 - might account for the changes on the subsequent OS map, including the disappearance of the coach.

 

I have a copy of Clark's History of M&GN Locomotives. This shows a similar grounded NLR coach on p72 at Yarmouth Beach.

[Echo]

Yes, Norwich was cut off from the outside world for a while

 

[Compound2632]

Just wondering if the coach could be ex-North London Railway. Some 4-wheelers were bought secondhand for use on what became the M&GN. These had square cornered windows.

 

Bingo! The panelling style matches this preserved carriage. [EDIT: and the one £1.38 posted.] However, can we find a match for the rather unusual layout of what looks like a single-door luggage compartment between a third class compartment and a first class compartment? When I think of NLR carriages, I think of all thirds, all seconds, or all firsts, plus the distinctive birdcage brakes.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Compound2632

[£1.38]

Bingo! The panelling style matches this preserved carriage. [EDIT: and the one £1.38 posted.] However, can we find a match for the rather unusual layout of what looks like a single-door luggage compartment between a third class compartment and a first class compartment? When I think of NLR carriages, I think of all thirds, all seconds, or all firsts, plus the distinctive birdcage brakes.

Now you are being awkward!

 

Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about NLR coaches.

 

The panelling above the windows does appear to have shadow at the bottom rather than at the top though, suggesting it projects out like the photo of the NLR coach. To my knowledge, that is pretty well unique to the NLR.

 

The First in my photo above has a double door luggage compartment, so there must have been a few variations on the theme. We probably need a North London Railway carriage expert to intervene at this stage.

[Compound2632]

We've been led a merry dance of red herrings to get to this point! The lad with the paint pot must be looking down on us and having a good chuckle.

 

Are there any photos of the Eastern & Midlands (or would it have been Lyn & Fakenham or Yarmouth & North Norfolk) ex-NLR carriages in service?

[£1.38]

This photo on the Chacewater site shows some Easingwold Rly ex-NLR coaches. The middle one appears to be a composite with single windows between the doors at the far end - just to illustrate that they weren't all the same.

 

Unfortunately I don't know much about the M&GN and its constituents. It might even have altered carriages to suit its needs - like adding luggage compartments, for example?

[£1.38]

There was an article in the HMRS Journal Vol 14 no 10 about secondhand coaches. It has this to say re the NLR. - all 4-wheelers, earliest 3rds had one window between doors. The M&GN had 28 vehicles.

 

It has a photo of an IoW 3rd vehicle with double doors in the middle - presumably adapted by the IoW Rly as a brake coach, so adaptations could and did happen.

 

Best bet I reckon that the Norwich vehicle would originally have been a composite with single windows between the doors in 3rd class - and maybe adapted by the M&GN or whatever? Of course, we might even have the possibility of 2 vehicles being joined together to make the hut.............

[Shadow]

This photo on the Chacewater site shows some Easingwold Rly ex-NLR coaches. The middle one appears to be a composite with single windows between the doors at the far end - just to illustrate that they weren't all the same.

 

Unfortunately I don't know much about the M&GN and its constituents. It might even have altered carriages to suit its needs - like adding luggage compartments, for example?

 

Also shows a coach on stilts just behind the last coach!

[Donw]

Nice to see you are progressing with the baseboards Edwardian. It will be good to get some track down.

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

First class (or is it composite, or brake third) detective work on identifying the NLR as the origin of the coach.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

First class (or is it composite, or brake third) detective work on identifying the NLR as the origin of the coach.

 

Kevin

 

I agree.  As I am out of the workshop and no longer engaged in wood butchery for CA (I would not dignify what I have done with the word "carpentry"), I have taken the opportunity to do some research on the coach.  I turned to Kidner, Carriage Stock of Minor Standard Gauge Railways.

 

Clearly, you are there before me; full marks to £1.38 and you all.  I agree, it very likely that this is a (grounded) NLR coach, but I wondered if Kidner could shed any further light..

 

I have not, yet, seen another company with quite this combination of rounded cornered eave panels, square ventilators and square drop and quarter lights.  Some LCDR coaches seem close, but they are unlikely travellers to Norfolk unless they were second-hand purchases.  The SE&CR seems to have had a bit of a clear out of LCD 4-wheelers.  Kidner records the East Kent and West Sussex as receiving them.  Norfolk would seem a stretch, and the chronology hardly fits.

 

The NLR style is by far the best match I have seen so far, and, as is well known, the NLR was a prolific disposer of carriages to minor railways up and down the country.

 

Lo and behold, some evidently went to M&GN constituents, though Kidner provides details of neither the coaches nor the constituents.  He does not give the dates of the purchases, either.

 

He does say, however, that 28 ex-NLR 4-wheel coaches were inherited by the M&GN (1893) but that "this stock was rapidly run down". No doubt further and better particulars are available via the MGN Circle, which I really must join.

 

That discovery fits well with the presence of a de-mounted ex-NLR coach at Norwich.  Given a clear-out from 1893, from the point of view of the grounded coach, the picture could be as early as 1896.

 

The remaining mystery is the livery.  I do not know that any M&GN constituent had such a style (one of the reasons the WN does, no doubt).    Is it, as has been suggested, a 'fictitious' scheme indulged in by the enginemen? 

 

NLR coach livery was varnished wood IIRC, but perhaps someone can provide better information on that.  Certainly, we are not used to seeing these coaches in a two-tone livery.  They seem usually to have resembled the Easingwold coaches in Light Railway service (great picture, BTW). 

 

Then I recalled that I had seen ex-NLR coaches done up in a two-tone livery; the three used on the Catterick Camp Railway (below).  These were 3 Firsts, vestibuled and with the centre coach modified to include double doors.

 

Finally, it strikes me that, if M&GN constituents purchased appreciable numbers of ex-NLR coaches, might not the WNR also have done so?  In my selection of locomotives and rolling stock, I am attempting to ensure that a reasonable proportion is, one way or another, appropriate to this sort of line in this sort of location.  This may be because they represent what was found on other minor East Anglian independent concerns, or the influence of GER support, or what might have become available locally/what others bought in. That way much of the stock will, in some form or other, be apt for an East Anglian minor line.  

 

In the circumstances, I feel almost duty bound to add a string of ex-NLR 4-wheelers to the roster.  What do the Parishioners and the Travelling Public think?

 

Who knows, perhaps that photograph taken at Norwich really is of one of them?!?

 

EDIT: PS, apropos the NLR drawings that Shadow reported were said to be found in the Engineer magazine, the new stock is mentioned in the 1st October 1869 issue, p233, for those who want to find it on Grace's site.  This has the text only, and I was fascinated to learn that the axle-boxes use oil "prepared from dead horses" as  this was found to be both "cheap and efficient".  The drawings are in the supplement, however, which does not appear to be included on Grace's site!

 

You can, however, gain a tiny glimpse of one of the drawings from a preservation site: http://www.swindon-cricklade-railway.org/vintagenlr_2.jpg

 

Serious question time: I note that, unusually, the NLR coaches seem to mount the springs inboard of the 'W' irons, and I wonder how much of a faff that would make them to model?

Edited September 11, 2017 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

Just came across these 3-d printed ones on shapeways.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/7S4WC5A6T/early-1860s-nlr-north-london-railway-coach-set

 

 

Just off to try and find an online copy of "The Engineer" 1869!

 

Tasty!

 

I think I had seen these before and concluded that they were N Gauge.  Bl**dy good price at £10 per coach body if they're 4mil!!!

 

Sorry, our 2FS Brethren will, quite rightly, have me shot: I concluded they were 2mm Scale.

 

Phew!

 

Post scriptum: For 4mm is the, for me, tricky and expensive etched option.  London Road Models catalogue includes 28' 4 Compartment First; 28' 5 compartment Third [second for the NLR?], and 22'6" Birdcage Brake.

 

Picture from the London Road website:   

Edited September 11, 2017 by Edwardian

[Caley Jim]

Serious question time: I note that, unusually, the NLR coaches seem to mount the springs inboard of the 'W' irons, and I wonder how much of a faff that would make them to model?

Many early vehicles, wagons and coaches, had the hornguides attached to the outside of the solebars, the slots in the axleboxes being near the face of the axlebox,  The springs are still under the solebars and so inside the hornguides.

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

This foto on the Furness Railway Trust site shows the kind of panelling I mean

 

 

The Norwich body is probably not another one of that particular coach, but a very distinctive style so probably another ex-NLR vehicle or combination thereof.

 

Obviously there were variations over time with NLR coaches.  The pre-preserved example at Furness looks a lot like those on the Catterick Camp line.

 

Having drawn a blank with the Engineer magazine (see post #5143), I thought I'd go to my Isle of Wight book, as this line was also the recipient of ex-NLR stock.

 

Whereas the M&GN constituent's purchases must have been made prior to 1893 (probably E&M, 1882-1893), the Isle of Wight acquired its NLR coaches in 1897 and 1898.  They remained in service on the island until 1926. 

 

These dates work well for coaches on the West Norfolk that would still be happily in service in 1905.

 

Maycock & Silsbury (Oakwood Press), state that, in 1897 and 1898, the IWR purchased 10 NLR 4-wheel coaches.  Kidner states that these comprised "two-generations" of coach, "the older ones having only one window between the compartments". Neverthless, Kidner, who lists 9 NLR coaches and a NLR van (see below) in stock when the Southern took over, has the build-date of all the coaches as 1864 and the van 1870.

 

Maycock & Silsbury give the 10 as:

 

x6 4-compt. Firsts

 

x4 5-compt. Seconds

 

The NLR did not, so far as I know, have a Third Class.  It is assumed that subsequent purchasers, including the West Norfolk, downgraded Seconds to Thirds. This is, indeed, what the IWR did to 3 of the 4 All Seconds.  The fourth was evidently rebuilt as a Guard's Van.

 

It struck me that a NLR could readily be converted to a First/Second Composite, and, indeed, that is precisely what the IWR did.  I assume these would have been First/Third Compos by the time the Southern took over.

 

This way, taking a Second, a First and one of those short Birdcage Brake Vans, such as went to Easingwold, you can have an ideal 3-coach Light Railway train with all the necessary accommodation: A First/Second Composite (ex-First), All Third (ex-Second), and Brake Van. 

 

Returning to Kidner's list, he shows 7 Thirds and 2 First/Third Compos, suggesting that a number of the Firsts-First/Second Compos were downgraded to All Thirds.

 

Happily, Maycock & Silsbury reproduce line drawings of the NLR "Third" and First coaches.  I should be able to scale these at some point. With all that square-cornered beading, they look pretty micro-strip friendly.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Probably needs an NLR expert to answer, but did the LNWR reprint any of the coaches in their scheme after they took over?

[Northroader]

The axleguards outside the springs was very common over on the Irish railways, I suppose as the gauge was that bit wider, and the NCC kept to this into LMS days. In modelling, it's a bit of a faff, as it brings the guards into undue prominence. Normally in O guage I'd be happy to use a triangular piece of brass with the bottom cropped and a hole for the bearing. (Most of my stock isn't compensated) But with the bearing outside I go for proper plastic axleguards (parkside dundas NBR wagon kits are a good source) and maybe a narrow brass axleguard behind for a stronger support.

[Compound2632]

Probably needs an NLR expert to answer, but did the LNWR reprint any of the coaches in their scheme after they took over?

 

You can rely on a physicist and Midland enthusiast to pontificate on that. (It's well known among physicists that a physicist can solve any problem in any field better than an expert in that field.) According to Philip Millard in LNWR Liveries (HMRS, 1985), it was rather the other way round - the LNWR adopted varnished teak for its Broad Street - Mansion House outer circle trains - running over the North London and Metropolitan District Railways. Otherwise the LNWR carriage books I have are silent on the subject. The LNWR took over working the NLR in 1909 but I can't find that they built any new stock; the LMS built new 57' non-corridor stock for NL services in 1930-2, replacing what Essery and Jenkinson describe as "a pretty gruesome collection of semi-museum pieces" [The LMS Coach 1923-1957 (Ian Allan, 1969)].

Edited September 11, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

You can rely on a physicist and Midland enthusiast to pontificate on that.

 

Better than asking a chemist and receiving a rude retort ....

[Compound2632]

Better than asking a chemist and receiving a rude retort ....

 

Although I should point out that my answer is only strictly correct for spherical carriages in a vacuum. This is a reasonable approximation as the NLR wasn't a Westinghouse line.

[Nearholmer]

Interesting, and thank you.

 

Given that a decent, respectable form of motive power was used on the NLR well before 1932, we're these 57ft coaches for "outer suburban", to Tring or similar?

 

Kevin

Edited September 11, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Interesting, and thank you.

 

Given that a decent, respectable form of motive power was used on the NLR well before 1932, we're these 57ft coaches for "outer suburban", to Tring or similar?

 

Kevin

 

Essery and Jenkinson, Op. Cit. (Hereinafter The Koran, for MRJ readers) say 'Broad Street - Alexandra Park services'.

[Nearholmer]

And, while I know the gat this going to be pedantic and annoying, I'm afraid I can't stop myself ........

 

'W-irons"

 

I thought that "axleguards" was a modern-ish modellers' error, but I saw it in a very old model railway book/magazine the other day, so it isn't new, but I'm almost completely certain that it is an error.

 

Please accept my apologies for such pedantry.

 

Kevin

[Caley Jim]

Better than asking a chemist and receiving a rude retort ....

Or even an acid reply!  A Botanist would just give you a withering look.

 

Jim  (windae picked)

[Guy Rixon]

I'm not aware that the LNWR repainted any existing NLR coaches when they took over, but they did build some new 4-wheeled stock for that line and the new coaches were in lake, not varnished teak. There's a photo on another thread of RMweb.

 

Coaches with axleguards outside the solebars are OK if you are building them rigid in 4mm scale, as the journals were in the usual position. Standard pinpoint bearings and axles should work. They are the very devil if you want springing or compensation. The LRM kits for NLR coaches (and for similar LNWR vehicles, like Mansion House stock) have inside bearings with compensation. I've designed, but not yet built, an alternative suspension with inside bearings and springs. I'll post about this when I have it working.

 

Finally, there is an NLR coach in 4mm scale on eBay at present. It looks a bit battered but could possibly be revived.