Castle Aching

[Donw]

Relevance, relevance...

 

Way back when I used C&L components, I used their butatone to bond chairs to plastic sleepers - strong enough. My understanding is that it also works for ply sleepers, although with plastic to plastic one has a true welded joint - the action of the solvent results in a breakdown of the surface layer of the plastic. I can see that the plastic my flow into the structure of the ply but do wonder how strong the joint is between these dissimilar materials.

 

Way back they used to speak of ply and rivet construction, in which the rail is soldered to metal inserts (rivets) in the sleepers, and the chairs are purely for decoration.

 

In MRJ someone did a test and showed the Chairs to ply joint was quite strong.

 

Don

[laurenceb]

Is this the most diverse thread in the whole of RMWeb?

A usless bit of info I picked up someware was that Lincon Cathedral when it was built was the worlds tallest building

[Compound2632]

Is this the most diverse thread in the whole of RMWeb?

 

Everything works to the good in the best of all possible threads.

[Caley Jim]

what like this 

 

 

Nick

I remember doing that experiment in Physiology labs at uni back in the 19........'s (well, a long time ago!).

 

Is frog juice a French specialty?

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

MEK = C4H8O = 2-butanone.

CH3-CO-CH2-CH3

(CH3- the methyl group, CO- the ketone, CH2-CH3- the ethyl group. I suppose it should be MKE? )

 

As a humble (ex) hewer of enamel and drawer of roots I bow to the superior knowledge of the chemists among us.

 

Jim

[mullie]

It depends partly on how you wish to make your points.

 

You could use the old ply and rivet system, and apply the chairs cosmetically (first cutting them in half) using almost any glue you fancy: it wouldn’t have yo be very strong.

You could have just a few such timbers, to ensure that you are maintaining gauge, and again use most glues.

 

Or go for glue all the way through.

 

You could use superglue, but the issue here is how strong the bond might be: too weak, and it is useless, too strong and you can’t adjust it.

It might be worth trying out UHU or Bostick clear and Evostick impact. I would suggest using the former pair “wet”, allowing for readjustment, and put a little weight on the rail for the pressure to help strengthen the bond. Not sure about Evostick: probably use it the same way. In both cases just a small dab of adhesive.

I would recommend considering 24 hour epoxy: you will have up to an hour to adjust the position, and then place a book on top of it overnight. You could use one-hour epoxy, but it will go off very quickly, and you won’t get much time to work.

 

Even more than when using solvent, you will need to pre-curve your rails pretty accurately, to help reduce stress on the joints.

 

Two key (sorry about the pun!) points (sorry, another one):

Each glue joint does not have to very strong, as it is the combined impact of lots of small joints which gives it the strength;

I have found it possible, when using solvent to join plastic chairs to wooden sleepers and timbers, to break the joint by carefully sliding in a single edge razor blade.i see no reason why this should not still be the case, although it will be less easy to put some more glue in between the base of the chair and the wood, then re-flooding with solvent. So, repairs are not impossible, and a few chairs unglued will not be the end of the world (or at least, the layout).

 

Best thing is for you to lay a few sleepers, times how many glues you have available, and try glueing the chairs down with a short length of rail. 4-5 sleepers should be enough, but lay both rails (can be different glue on each side) and put a small book on it.

 

Let us know how you get on.

I quite like the sound of the ply and rivet system with cosmetic chairs. I've been building PCB point work for around ten years, have just built a point and am currently building a double slip to relay the track on Rickett Street as an exercise in EM. Soldering means you can fettle the point until it works then add chairs after.

 

Strangely, when I'm well I can tolerate solder fumes but not strong glue fumes, I have a note from Mum to say so!

 

Lincoln- loverly place.

 

Thanks everyone for your advice.

 

Did Henry VIII  write Greesleeves or not?

[Regularity]

No. But he did popularise it.

[nick_bastable]

In MRJ someone did a test and showed the Chairs to ply joint was quite strong.

 

Don

we discussed this recently at a area group meeting, I'm of the opinion that most models are over engineered on the basis that everyone attempts to replicate a Hornby Thomas clockwork set with all the robustness that requires 

 

Nick

[Regularity]

The "2" is superfluous. Butanone is butanone, no ketone isomers are possible.

True: I was quoting the CDC classification when checking up on details: my knowledge of chemistry is a third of a century old.

 

Edit: add url.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Regularity

[wagonman]

I've had a look through the GER registers: the early pages (1887ish-1890ish) are damaged – principally it's the edge of the page with the wagon numbers that has gone or is otherwise unreadable – but there are various batches of wagons (usually 10 at a time) built by Harrison & Camm, G R Turner and S J Claye with known numbers between 520 and 570, 713-9, 800-829, 900-944 – all these between 1890 and 1898 – and then 260-1 in 1902. In 1910 came 301-359, built by the Ince Wagon & Iron Co, and registered to W H Booth. No sign of Mr Mitchell. All wagons were 10 tons rated and many were recorded as "15ft long" though no indication as to whether that was internal or external.

 

In other words I haven't managed to find the wagon shown in the photo of the M&GN loco.

[Talltim]

we discussed this recently at a area group meeting, I'm of the opinion that most models are over engineered on the basis that everyone attempts to replicate a Hornby Thomas clockwork set with all the robustness that requires

 

Nick

I think there's some truth in that, although exhibiting gives a layout a hard life. If you aren't clumsy and have a fixed layout then so long as it stays together with your trains running on it it is strong enough.

[corneliuslundie]

Despite all that has been said about about solvents, we all still seem to be alive and reasonably well.

Mind you, if you read and believed all the health warnings that are issued you would have to conclude that the human race had been wiped out centuries ago.

But we still seem to be here.

Jonathan

[Regularity]

It’s like most things: handled with reasonable care and common sense, then the actual harm is a lot less than the potential damage.

[Donw]

One option to avoid the solvent would be to either adopt 2mm where we have introduced point bases with plug in chairs (B6,B7 and B9 available), go for Flat bottom track and use real spikes. Or go to larger scale where  whitemetal chairs which can be pinned down are available ( I have some CCW ones in 0 gauge somewhere ). With Ply and Rivet track you may not be using the solvent but some people find the fumes from flux just as bad.

 

Personally I don't get troubled much by any of these things perhaps having a lot of other things to get on with means not so much time spent modelling.

 

Talking of time spent modelling. I have been quite for the last few days as I was preparing and then dealing with a meter move requiring a new consumer unit. So have been off air part of the time. I was going to look at getting the interlaced sleepering sorted out but Templot decided to do an update which failed and I know have no access to Templot. Martin has yet to respond. Meanwhile Edwardian is cracking on and I haven't produced some sample blades and crossing as I promised. Must crack on.

 

Don

[scotcent]

It’s like most things: handled with reasonable care and common sense, then the actual harm is a lot less than the potential damage.

 

I've  been  using  solvents  and  fluxes  for  more  than  40  years.  In  my  early  days  I  used  a  rust  curative  which  was  in  fact  66%  phosphoric  acid  as  a  flux,  and  it  generally  worked  quite  well.  The  fumes  became  quite  addictive........  For  plastic  welding  I  used  cellulose  thinners  for  many  years.  Nowadays  I  use  Butanone,  and  the  various  C & L fluxes,  because  they're  easier  to  get,  and  I  can  afford  them  now.  I've  lost  neither  my  life  or  my  sanity,  I  claim.  But  that  isn't  a  recommendation  for  anyone  to  use  these  things --  as  has  been  said  they  are  nasty  stuffs,  and  carelessness  can  have  nasty  consequences,  in  the  short  and  long  term.  If  you  have  a  sensitivity  to  them  I  recommend  card  buildings  and  school  glue.

 

Allan  F

[St Enodoc]

Lunch time break over, class put your history books away, next lesson is modelling (oh, sir, yawn, boring, etc.,) when your modelling with solvents try and cultivate the habit of modelling with straight arms rather than bent elbows. It's nice to get close to see what you're at, but it helps stop fumes going up your hooter. I'm not using solvents for track, but with soldering I'm using acid flux, and the vapour off that has much the same effect.

Or sub-contract it to Twizzle.

[St Enodoc]

I quite like the sound of the ply and rivet system with cosmetic chairs. I've been building PCB point work for around ten years, have just built a point and am currently building a double slip to relay the track on Rickett Street as an exercise in EM. Soldering means you can fettle the point until it works then add chairs after.

 

Strangely, when I'm well I can tolerate solder fumes but not strong glue fumes, I have a note from Mum to say so!

 

Lincoln- loverly place.

 

Thanks everyone for your advice.

 

Did Henry VIII  write Greesleeves or not?

Flanders and Swann seemed to think so.

[NCB]

Plastic Weld is essentially 85-90% dicholoromethane and these is MEK.

Old-fashioned Tippex thinners might work!

 

There's no MEK in Plastic Weld (the EMA stuff, not the Plastruct stuff). It's dichloromethane.

 

Plastic Weld works and evaporates fast. It also seeps into a joint through capillary action. For gluing chairs, I hold the chair in position with a small screwdriver and slosh a bit around the edges using a brush. Job done. If you need to move the chair, a sharp thin knife blade slipped under the chair will do it cleanly and easily.

 

It smells much nicer than MEK. However, like all solvents, avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and stick the lid back on the bottle as soon as you've finished using it. Avoid getting the stuff on the skin if possible.

 

Nigel

[Regularity]

There's no MEK in Plastic Weld (the EMA stuff, not the Plastruct stuff). It's dichloromethane.

 

Plastic Weld works and evaporates fast. It also seeps into a joint through capillary action. For gluing chairs, I hold the chair in position with a small screwdriver and slosh a bit around the edges using a brush. Job done. If you need to move the chair, a sharp thin knife blade slipped under the chair will do it cleanly and easily.

 

It smells much nicer than MEK. However, like all solvents, avoid breathing the fumes as much as possible, and stick the lid back on the bottle as soon as you've finished using it. Avoid getting the stuff on the skin if possible.

 

Nigel

Pardon me, I was quoting from the Plastruct website:

http://plastruct.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/MSDS_PPC_2.pdf

Didn’t realise there was a difference, to be honest.

 

Edit: can’t find a data sheet for the EMA stuff, which is why I ended up on the Plastruct site despite putting “ema plastic weld” into google. I find the lack of easily found information rather more alarming than what the information probably is. (I was mentally scarred at a young age by an episode of “Z Cars”, where they couldn’t rescue a lorry driver from a crushed cab, as one of the barrels that had fallen on him was devoid of any markings. It turned out to be dried egg powder, but too late as he had died from his injuries. Well, That storyline has stuck with me since I was in short trousers, and whilst I do think people go overboard on the elfin safety, it is only good practice to be aware of what you are handling.

 

MEK gets a hazard rating of 2, and DCM a 3, neither of which are cause for concern unless you are in an enclosed, unventilated space and leave the top off the bottle.

 

Probably doesn’t need to be said, but just in case:

 

Don’t smoke when handling chemicals!

 

It’s not just the fire risk, but the heat can lead to chemical changes, and you can inhale far worse than just the usual tobacco crap.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Regularity

[Edwardian]

One option to avoid the solvent would be to either adopt 2mm where we have introduced point bases with plug in chairs (B6,B7 and B9 available), go for Flat bottom track and use real spikes. Or go to larger scale where  whitemetal chairs which can be pinned down are available ( I have some CCW ones in 0 gauge somewhere ). With Ply and Rivet track you may not be using the solvent but some people find the fumes from flux just as bad.

 

Personally I don't get troubled much by any of these things perhaps having a lot of other things to get on with means not so much time spent modelling.

 

Talking of time spent modelling. I have been quite for the last few days as I was preparing and then dealing with a meter move requiring a new consumer unit. So have been off air part of the time. I was going to look at getting the interlaced sleepering sorted out but Templot decided to do an update which failed and I know have no access to Templot. Martin has yet to respond. Meanwhile Edwardian is cracking on and I haven't produced some sample blades and crossing as I promised. Must crack on.

 

Don

 

Not sure about cracking on, unless the chairs arrive this morning, I can't really make a start.

 

What I will try to do this weekend is get the cork laid ready. 

 

 

Flanders and Swann seemed to think so.

 

"Greenfleas?  A pretty unlikely title for a fong".

 

"We're Nationalising the Monastries. He said 'if they offer you one don't take it, 'cos if Bloody Mary gets in, they'll be de-Nationalised'".    

 

Somewhere, in the blur of recent pages, there was some reference to how some modellers in the past tackle track laying.

 

Here are some pictures of Peter Denny's track laying, which is fascinating.  The pictures (I have managed to borrow a camera!) and captions are self-explanatory.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Edwardian

[mullie]

My reason for avoiding certain high fume products including oil based internal house paints as well as modelling products is that they trigger my asthma which solder and fluxes, when I'm well don't (I'm sure others have similar problems). I just manage things as best I can. If I use a rattle can it has to be either outdoors or in the  garage with the door at least partially up whilst wearing a mask.

 

Living where I do genuine model products can be difficult to get so I use mainly artists materials and car sprays, we don't even have a Games Workshop stockist in the town anymore so I'm told.

 

Thanks for all the sciency stuff and the advice on trackwork has been very informative. watch this space as they say. Well not this one, but my own threads.

 

 

Martyn

Edited October 7, 2017 by mullie

[Northroader]

One thing to take in with the Denny type track laying is to keep track lengths short, say two foot, and use expansion gaps. I’ve forgotten whether the missus has let you move back out of the stables or wherever, but particularly where you’ve got the line where there’s any temperature variations, having the line soldered up rigidly like that ends up with the joins just tearing following heatwaves or cold snaps.

[Nearholmer]

Should be able to report on ModelU soon.

 

Son had an early kick-off this morning, so we went straight from the match to the 'Great Electric Train Show', where they were scanning, so I should have a 1:43 son, in footy kit, soon.

 

Predictably, the show was very good, but very main stream. No narrow gauge, nothing set pre-WW2, and 90% 00.

 

Equally predictably, son enjoyed a completely OTT 1960s Triang layout with a manic minic road system, and a 'drive yourself' shunting puzzle more than all the careful handicraft!

 

Demographic was 80% >50, with <20 being about 1%. Boy is this an old blokes' hobby!

 

Kevin

Edited October 7, 2017 by Nearholmer

[runs as required]

Demographic was 80% >50, with <20 being about 1%. Boy is this an old blokes' hobby!

Kevin

Interesting point - I wonder what hobbies have largely disappeared over the last 70 odd years (or 3 generations).

Cage bird fancying? Short wave 'ham' radio (my dad's secret world) or Fretworking?

My sons and a couple of grandsons are enthusiastic cooks

My grandmother, mum and my sister were always dressmaking; none of the current womenfolk would dream of it.

 

Malta on the other hand is still steeped in improbable hobbies - the Police Headquarters Hobbies Exhibition should certainly not be missed. One of my favourite sub-categories is dioramas of Malta's unsolved mysteries.

dh

Edited October 7, 2017 by runs as required

[Andy Kirkham]

Interesting point - I wonder what hobbies have largely disappeared over the last 70 odd years (or 3 generations).

Cage bird fancying? Short wave 'ham' radio (my dad's secret world) or Fretworking?

My sons and a couple of grandsons are enthusiastic cooks

My grandmother, mum and my sister were always dressmaking; none of the current womenfolk would dream of it.

 

Malta on the other hand is still steeped in improbable hobbies - the Police Headquarters Hobbies Exhibition should certainly not be missed. One of my favourite sub-categories is dioramas of Malta's unsolved mysteries.

dh

 

I read somewhere that stamp collecting has suffered a fairly dramatic decline.