Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

There was discussion elsewhere of the distinction between ground signals, miniature signals controlling egress from a sidings onto a running line, and ground or point discs, which indicated the setting of a point giving trailing access to a siding from a running line. It was shown that this practice that went back to the 1880s.

 

Signalling!

 

Ah, the pleasures that await!

 

As we are, I think, agreed, that, while not following a prototype, we want to do something prototypically early 1900s, signalling will deserve and repay some thought in due course. I would like to have some variety in types of signals, and to include some old-fashioned types.  I have a yen for slotted post signals, because they are suitably archaic for the WN and just that little bit different from the norm.

[Caley Jim]

 Hands up how many of you handbuilt turnouts and working traps for your first layout?

Please Sir, me Sir.  (if you don't count Hornby Dublo 3 rail as a first layout).

 

One just visible on the dock siding in this rather poor photo.  There is a second under the tank loco in the background.

 

 

They both work, linked to their respective running line turnouts.

 

Of course, if you want complicated, you can incorporate the trap within a turnout.

 

 

Jim

[Regularity]

I do the first bit of point blade filing using the trusty Dremel to speed things up then finish by hand but then I don't use jigs because I often build in situ.

Technically that’s not filing, but grinding. Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread...

I do the first bit of point blade filing using the trusty Dremel to speed things up then finish by hand but then I don't use jigs because I often build in situ.

Technically that’s not filing, but grinding. Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread...

[Donw]

Please Sir, me Sir.  (if you don't count Hornby Dublo 3 rail as a first layout).

 

One just visible on the dock siding in this rather poor photo.  There is a second under the tank loco in the background.

 

499 shunting coal.jpg

 

They both work, linked to their respective running line turnouts.

 

Of course, if you want complicated, you can incorporate the trap within a turnout.

 

Trap points in 2FS.jpg

 

Jim

 

I might have guessed you would have done it.  Nice work Jim. As I read the bottom one the main line is to the right and the two traps guard against something coming from either siding. Both traps could be worked by one lever

Don

[mullie]

Technically that’s not filing, but grinding. Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread...Technically that’s not filing, but grinding. Oops. Sorry. Wrong thread...

So informative you said it twice!

[Regularity]

So informative you said it twice!

It’ Not just predictive text that causes problems with the forum software for iPads, you know...

[runs as required]

Of course, if you want complicated, you can incorporate the trap within a turnout.

Jim

An impressive piece of modelling for a first layout. But I can't understand the 'point' (pun intended) of derailing a run-away actually on the turn out rather than safely 'in rear'

dh

[figworthy]

Hands up how many of you handbuilt turnouts and working traps for your first layout?

 

 

Figworthy is my first attempt, and (apart from the fiddle yard), all the track on there is hand built, and it has three working traps (although I've since realised that I only needed two).

 

Adrian

[Nearholmer]

RaR

 

I wondered about that, too.

 

There are actually two traps in Jim's work of wonder, and I'm guessing that they protect a passenger line, with which what we can see converges "off stage, right", from runaways from two goods sidings that are "off stage, left", and that whatever might run away is heavy-enough to break-open a set of points set and held against it, otherwise holding the switch, plus one trap, would be enough.

 

Jim, please do tell us.

 

Kevin

[Edwardian]

Great track-work there, Jim.

 

And just to round things up re the M&GN Johnson 4-4-0s, I came across this example in 7mil.

[Donw]

Jim mentions the traps are linked to the turnout on the main giving access to the sidings so both operate together with the main turnout irrespective of how that turnout is set. If they were further back in the sidings it would probably meant separate levers if further forward so only one was needed it probably wouldn't give sufficient protection as a runaway derailed by the trap might still have blocked the main. Traps like that are not uncommon.

 

Don

[Caley Jim]

I might have guessed you would have done it.  Nice work Jim. As I read the bottom one the main line is to the right and the two traps guard against something coming from either siding. Both traps could be worked by one lever

You are correct, Don.  The turnout which divides the two up sidings is too close to the turnout on the up main to allow room for a trap that would keep anything clear of the main.  As you rightly say, the other alternative would be a trap on each siding which would be more complicated to operate.  There was this arrangement at the end of the loop at Peebles.  I'm at my daughter's house looking after her dog this evening, but I'll try and post the Pebbles picture tomorrow.

 

An impressive piece of modelling for a first layout. But I can't understand the 'point' (pun intended) of derailing a run-away actually on the turn out rather than safely 'in rear'

I hope the above explains things to both you and Nearholmer.  If you look at the two photos in this post you can see the turnout where the No.2 up siding  (to the warehouse dock) diverges from the No1 up siding (which serves the livestock landing for the market).  This on the right of the first photo and on the left of the second one.

 

There was a photo in MRJ some time ago which showed a similar arrangement but with double switches on each trap.

 

BTW, RaR only the top phoro of my post was of my first layout.  The turnout we're discussing is on my second one!

 

Jim

[scotcent]

 

This  seems  to  have  been  quite  a  common  arrangement  at  small  wayside  stations,  certainly  on  the  Caledonian.

 

Allan  F

[Regularity]

Quite common all over. As well as being capable of operation as a single unit, it makes maximum use of available space: it’s not just modellers who like to do this!

 

Incidentally, it is this sort of thing which makes making your own track such a good thing.

 

Don:

Started making my own track when 15, completely abandoned Peco when 16.

[Edwardian]

As often happens, I start to lag behind.  So, I thought I had better try to acquire a basic grasp of the subject.

 

Thank God for Wiki, I say: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_points

 

So:

 

Catch points and trap points are types of turnout which act as railway safety devices. Both work by guiding railway carriages and trucks from a dangerous route onto a separate, safer track. Catch points are used to derail vehicles which are out of control on steep slopes (known as runaways). Trap points are used to protect main railway lines from unauthorised vehicles moving onto them from sidings or branch lines.

 

From this it would appear that I would need trap points, to protect the running lines from the sidings and from the loops.  Neither lead to "a separate, safer track" or lead to sand drags, as mentioned by Wiki, so the function is, presumable, to derail a vehicle before it reaches the point that gives access to the running line and fouls it or obstructs the running line.

 

As I understand it, the trap point in this context acts as an advance guard for the point that gives entry on to the running line.  If you did not have a trap point, the vehicle would derail when it reached the point set against it, and would probably obstruct both paths through the turnout, including the one the points were set for. 

 

Is that understanding correct so far?  

 

I read on, and this seems to confirm my understanding:

 

Trap points are found at the exit from a siding or where a secondary track joins a main line. A facing turnout is used to prevent any unauthorised movement that may otherwise obstruct the main line. The trap points also prevent any damage that may be done by a vehicle passing over points not set for traffic joining the main line.

 

Now, I think Wiki is describing general or contemporary practice, so I cannot assume that everything said applies to pre-Great War practice, but, I note further: 

 

When a signal controlling passage onto a main line is set to "danger", the trap points are set to derail any vehicle passing that signal. Interlocking is used to make sure that the signal cannot be set to allow passage onto the main line until the trap points have been aligned to ensure this movement can take place.

 

If this method was employed, I would have a signal for exiting the yard and the loops, that would be sited in advance of the trap point, and which could not be cleared until the trap points were correctly set for access to the running line.  Not that I am planning physical interlocking, but, presumably, the line needs to be operated as if it were in order to be prototypical.

 

Now, where exactly I would fit in the trap points and the signal is interesting. The points from the running lines lead immediately to a further point in each case. So, they would need to be located between 2 points in each case and this might not allow the derailing to occur a safe distance from the point it protects. As Wiki puts it:

 

Trap points should preferably be positioned to ensure that any unauthorised vehicle is stopped a safe distance from the main line. However, due to space limitations, it is not always possible to guarantee this.

 

Very helpfully, Wiki includes a diagram!

 

 

//

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

First. I would go with trap poins like those in the prototype photo. Much simpler than having to co-ordinate the movement of two blades.

Secondly, if you have two sidings converging onto a passenger running line, as in that photo, then one trap point for each route, within the point, as there, seems to be the way to go to save space.On our club layout we have room for the trap point between the running line point and the first point in the yard, but as it is a private siding we had to make room also for a gate. The trap point is on the "main line" side of the gate so could not be integrated into the siding pointwork, but that does not apply in your case.

I use the term "passenger running line" because I am not sure whether the need for trap points arises on all running lines or only on those used by passenger trains; perehaps someone can clarify.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

I had the belief that protecting a running line from runaways by means of a catch point or trap siding had been something the Board of Trade had pressed for from very early on so on looking up the Abergele accident of 1868 I was surprised to learn that this did not feature in Col. Rich's report.

[Edwardian]

Here, then, is Brandon, on the Great Eastern Ely-Thetford line. 

 

We can see the transition from the chaired bullhead running lines to the non-chaired sidings, which are presumably spiked FB/Vignoles.

 

Where is the trap point?  What would stop the covered van moving into conflict with the approaching train?  Aside from the siding point, what would stop it reaching the point on the mainline?

 

Here, again, is Marks Tey, c.1900.  A more substantial station.  Can I discern a trap point between the running lines and the yard where marked?

Edited October 16, 2017 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

On the other hand, this shot of the Great Eastern station at Cromer clearly shows a trap point between sidings and the turnout leading onto the running line.   The date is c.1905.

 

My untutored description would be that this is a single trap with a check rail opposite.  No doubt both my understanding and nomenclature are poor, but I find this quite a helpful picture!  

[Caley Jim]

Where is the trap point? What would stop the covered van moving into conflict with the approaching train? Aside from the siding point, what would stop it reaching the point on the mainline?

The siding turnout protects the main line as it and the main line turnout would operate as a crossover from one lever in the signal box.

 

Jim

[Londontram]

Doesn't having the head shunt, siding negate the need for trap points in these sort of situations 

[phil_sutters]

On the other hand, this shot of the Great Eastern station at Cromer clearly shows a trap point between sidings and the turnout leading onto the running line.   The date is c.1905.

 

My untutored description would be that this is a single trap with a check rail opposite.  No doubt both my understanding and nomenclature are poor, but I find this quite a helpful picture!  

I had to have a think about how that would have worked. I suppose it could work as a brake, in that, with the check rail holding a wheel on one side, the moving blade pushes the other wheel outwards, making putting pressure on the backs of both wheels. Doubtless there are people out there with the correct rules and practices.

[Edwardian]

Dunham (Great Eastern, Swaffham - Dereham line), appears similar to Brandon, as there appears to be no trap point between the yard and the running line.

 

Foulsham, Great Eastern, perhaps, represents a busier line?  

 

Here is a single trap located on the loop protected the running line.

[St Enodoc]

Auldbar Rd trap 3.jpg

 

This  seems  to  have  been  quite  a  common  arrangement  at  small  wayside  stations,  certainly  on  the  Caledonian.

 

Allan  F

 

This shows very clearly how it would work.

 

The two trap blades would work as a crossover with the point in the main line, from a single lever in the signal box. The point in which the trap blades are mounted is hand-worked by the white lever on the left. The traps protect the main line from unintended movements out of both sidings.

[Edwardian]

I do feel I am learning something here.  So, at Brandon and Dunham, the yard point itself acts as the protection. 

 

The situation I have, however, is more akin to Cromer and Marks Tey, where fan of sidings branch from a running line.  In these situations, Great Eastern practice appears to have been to insert a trap point to one rail (different rail in each instance, it appears).  

 

Of course, I could be wrong in my interpretation of the rather unclear Marks Tey photograph, and, of course the subsequent point might alter the situation, but I think the arrangement Cromer is the same as Castle Aching in this respect.  I also not the way a running line was protected from a loop at Foulsham.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Edwardian