Castle Aching

[Owd Bob]

Just found these three '00' scale figures in my local model shop bits basket James for a few Pennies and thought of this railway topic straight away, they look to be of the Edwardian era and are quite nice moldings, but who made these? Free to a good home! Well yours if needed for the price of a stamp! They all seem to be newspaper related..London Times probably 

 

[brack]

 

 

not that there was anything interesting in those fowler archives (photos taken in 1880-1885 for a company and therefore well out of copyright)

Edited August 29, 2018 by brack

[Edwardian]

Just found these three '00' scale figures in my local model shop bits basket James for a few Pennies and thought of this railway topic straight away, they look to be of the Edwardian era and are quite nice moldings, but who made these? Free to a good home! Well yours if needed for the price of a stamp! They all seem to be newspaper related..London Times probably 

2011-07-17 18.14.54.jpg

 

I suspect they may relate to the Days Gone diecast series.  As such, they may be a tad overscale, but full of character.  Just the one example, or have they been reproduced in quantity?

[Edwardian]

I emailed MOSI to complain bitterly about this backward step the other year, pointing out that free access to historic photos as had been provided further their mission to educate and inspire, whereas "you can buy one or two from sslprints and some are on Getty images" kind of fails in that respect. Their reply did not address elements of sarcasm and irony found elsewhere in my missive but did state that essentially they'd been made to put their website on the same platform as the rest of the science museum group, they were hoping to restore access (no progress 2 years later) and that I could order any print or drawing if I needed them. I may have pointed out the chicken and egg situation of not being able to see said photo or drawing online and therefore not knowing which one to order...

Rubbish isn't it, public records being made less available after all the hard work of scanning them has been done.

 

Are the Fowler works photos still available from (I think) Reading University? They were accessible from their website once, then disappeared from their search facilities. I did find an old URL which when suitably edited got me to the root directory and I then downloaded all 208 narrow gauge images (for safeguarding you understand) and 199 pages of catalogue scans, but that 'door' was closed shortly afterwards.

 

I am sorry to hear that.

 

If anything this has increased my Outrage at the unnecessarily stupid decisions sometimes made by the Guardians of Our Past in the museum industry.  What a waste. 

 

So, I have now sent the following email, and much good I expect it will do!

 

Possibly I should have omitted the negative feedback on the website, but I have less chance of feeling talked-down to whilst watching Cbeebies than I do when wading through the asinine content of a Science Museum Group web-page!

 

Grrrrr....!!!!

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Please can you provide me with a link to the wonderful online archive of Beyer Peacock works photographs and drawings?

 

It is a valuable resource, but I have searched in vain for it on your re-vamped website.

 

Incidentally, the website seems to assume I have the reading age of a five-year old, presumably in the belief that this somehow makes the collection more accessible, yet it now links me to little if anything of interest or substance. Where can all these meticulously scanned and uploaded images be found, if no longer via the museum's own website?

 

Thank you in anticipation.

[Edwardian]

Just found these three '00' scale figures in my local model shop bits basket James for a few Pennies and thought of this railway topic straight away, they look to be of the Edwardian era and are quite nice moldings, but who made these? Free to a good home! Well yours if needed for the price of a stamp! They all seem to be newspaper related..London Times probably 

2011-07-17 18.14.54.jpg

 

I suspect they may relate to the Days Gone diecast series.  As such, they may be a tad overscale, but full of character.  Just the one example, or have they been reproduced in quantity?

 

Aha, a little research and my suspicions prove to be correct!

 

Apparently the companions to a 1934 Ford Model A Royal Mail van: http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/ShowFeature.aspx?id=56

 

At least some resources remain online!

 

Science Museum Group popsies, I is gonna curate yo ass!

Edited August 29, 2018 by Edwardian

[Owd Bob]

Shame they are too big! Coz they are nice figures, they're always here if anybody ever needs them.   

[Edwardian]

Shame they are too big! Coz they are nice figures, they're always here if anybody ever needs them.   

 

I'll take them if that's alright!

 

I am sure I can find a good use for them and, as you know, I just enjoy painting figures.

 

Or "Bloody Little Men", as the Mem calls them.

 

Strange they are not with a newspaper van?  Did the Riyal mail deliver newspapers? I am ashamed to say I have no idea!

Edited August 29, 2018 by Edwardian

[wagonman]

Indeed, they resemble some of William Adams early 4-4-0 designs for the South Western, some of which were built by Beyers.

 

One wonders ....

 

 

 

 

I do wonder, in the case of the early Adams locos for the LSWR, just how much the design was the work of Nine Elms and how much Gorton's. There were after all a number of standard BP products already at work – the 330 saddle tanks for one, and the Ilfracombe Goods for another I suspect.

 

 

 

[the price of absenting myself from the parish for 24 hours or so – I'm about 3 pages behind everyone else]

Edited August 29, 2018 by wagonman

[wagonman]

 

Strange they are not with a newspaper van?  Did the Riyal mail deliver newspapers? I am ashamed to say I have no idea!

 

 

No they didn't; not unless there was an address label and a stamp on them, anyway.

[Compound2632]

I do wonder, in the case of the early Adams locos for the LSWR, just how much the design was the work of Nine Elms and how much Gorton's. There were after all a number of standard BP products already at work – the 330 saddle tanks for one, and the Ilfracombe Goods for another I suspect.

 

 

Inspecting these tables, the Beatties seem to have had a long-term relationship with Beyer Peacock, continuing in the early Adams years; then other builders were favoured. It seems it wasn't until the Jubilee 0-4-2s that Nine Elms took over - in 1887 of course. Was there some expansion of Nine Elms Works that was completed in that year?

[Edwardian]

I do wonder, in the case of the early Adams locos for the LSWR, just how much the design was the work of Nine Elms and how much Gorton's. There were after all a number of standard BP products already at work – the 330 saddle tanks for one, and the Ilfracombe Goods for another I suspect.

 

Yes, but the point Compound and I made was that chronology suggests that Beyer Peacock took from Adams' designs in the case of these 4-4-0s.  They changed from the Crewe Type raked outside cylinders to something resembling the early Adams classes after building 4-coupled designs for Adams on the South western.

 

Adams's early 4-coupled designs show great uniformity, regardless of the builders used, and I suggest that the appearance of Beyer Peacock's locomotives is derived from Adams, not visa versa.

 

The style of these engines originated with a series of Adams's 4-coupled designs.  They embraced both tank and tender designs and had different sized coupled wheels, to meet different needs, but they all had a coupled wheelbase of 8'6" and all were of similar appearance:

 

• 46 Class 4-4-0T suburban tanks, with 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres.  All 12 were built by BP in 1879.

• The first of Adams's 4-4-0s for the SW was a mixed traffic tender version of the 46 Class tanks.  These were the 380 Class or 'Steamrollers'.  They also had 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They were also built by BP in 1879.

• Next came an express class, 135 Class with 6'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They were also built by BP in 1880-1.

• Beyer Peacock built none of the next two 4-4-0 classes.  First came 7' flyers for east of Salisbury, the 445 Class of 1883.  The class maintained the 8'6" wheel-base.  All of them were built by R Stephenson, but the family resemblance held good.  

• Second came more 6'7" express engines, the 460 Class of 1884-7.  These again maintained the 8'6" wheel-base.  This time the builders were R Stephenson and Neilsons.

• When the next 4-coupled tank comes along, it's the famous 415 'Radial' Class of 4-4-2T, which returns to 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They built by all of the above-named builders, plus Dubs. 

The progression of these classes suggests to me that it is the BP Lynn & Fakenham locos of 1882 and the Buenos Aires & Rosario Railway locos of 1884 that look like Adams's South Western 4-coupled types, not visa versa. 

 

The Lynn & Fakenham engines had 6' coupled wheels at 8'6" centres.  I don't know about the Argentine locos.

 

On the other hand, the South Western's  Ilfracombe Goods was an original BP design - witness the example supplied to Australia - the Beattie brothers toyed with designs for a loco suited to the grades and curves of the Ilfracombe line, but there is no doubt that Adams bought in the solution in the form of a standard Beyer product.

 

A case of a locomotive superintendent borrowing from Beyer's design would seem to be McDonnell in the case of his J15, which we have discussed here before now.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Edwardian

[RedGemAlchemist]

[the price of absenting myself from the parish for 24 hours or so – I'm about 3 pages behind everyone else]

Never mind. I'm consistently behind everyone, even when I'm here.

 

Yes, but the point Compound and I made was that chronology suggests that Beyer Peacock took from Adams' designs in the case of these 4-4-0s. They changed from the Crewe Type raked outside cylinders to something resembling the early Adams classes after building 4-coipled designs for Adams on the South western.

 

Adams's early 4-coupled designs show great uniformity, regardless of the builders used, and I suggest that the appearance of Beyer Peacock's locomotives is derived from Adams, not visa versa.

 

The style of these engines originated with a series of Adams's 4-coupled designs. They embraced both tank and tender designs and had different sized coupled wheels, to meet different needs, but they all had a coupled wheelbase of 8'6" and all were of similar appearance:

 

• 46 Class 4-4-0T suburban tanks, with 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. All 12 were built by BP in 1879.

• The first of Adams's 4-4-0s for the SW was a mixed traffic tender version of the 46 Class tanks. These were the 380 Class or 'Steamrollers'. They also had 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They were also built by BP in 1879.

• Next came an express class, 135 Class with 6'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They were also built by BP in 1880-1.

• Beyer Peacock built none of the next two 4-4-0 classes. First came 7' flyers for east of Salisbury, the 445 Class of 1883. The class maintained the 8'6" wheel-base. All of them were built by R Stephenson, but the family resemblance held good.

• Second came more 6'7" express engines, the 460 Class of 1884-7. These again maintained the 8'6" wheel-base. This time the builders were R Stephenson and Neilsons.

• When the next 4-coupled tank comes along, it's the famous 415 'Radial' Class of 4-4-2T, which returns to 5'7" coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. They built by all of the above-named builders, plus Dubs.

The progression of these classes suggests to me that it is the BP Lynn & Fakenham locos of 1882 and the Buenos Aires & Rosario Railway locos of 1884 that look like Adams's South Western 4-coupled types, not visa versa.

 

The Lynn & Fakenham engines had 6' coupled wheels at 8'6" centres. I don't know about the Argentine locos.

 

On the other hand, the South Western's Ilfracombe Goods was an original BP design - witness the example supplied to Australia - the Beattie brothers toyed with designs for a loco suited to the grades and curves of the Ilfracombe line, but there is no doubt that Adams bought in the solution in the form of a standard Beyer product.

 

A case of a locomotive superintendent borrowing from Beyer's design would seem to be McDonnell in the case of his J15, which we have discussed here before now.

Hmm. Interesting thoughts there. Wouldn't blame them if they had taken some inspiration. The Adams 4-4-0s are extremely good looking engines. That and the fact that Beyer had a pretty solid reputation anyway definitely has to also be taken into account. Edited August 29, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Compound2632]

What these side-on views hide is the 5'6" gauge of the engines built for Argentina. The layout of the front end cannot have been a straight copy of that on the Adams engines as the cylinders and valves must be around 4" 5" further from the centre-line. One visible difference is the outside exhaust steam pipe on the Beunos Ayres & Rosario engine, which one might think was made necessary by the wider gauge, were it not for this being a feature of the Lynn & Fakenham engines too. The boiler is also not Adams' design, as it is made of three rings rather than two, with the dome on the centre ring rather than the rear ring. The more one looks, the more superficial the similarities become. 

[Nearholmer]

For those with both horses and railways in the family, I recommend this insane electro-equestrian lartigue, which we’ve just had a ride on. Notice the traverses needed for shunting.

[Compound2632]

... a whole new meaning to riding your horse on the rail.

 

Where?

[Orion]

LSWR Loco Superintendents and Beyer Peacock has a bit of a working relationship, I believe. Beattie acted as a kind of consultant to them, having several of his designs built, or at least locos based on his designs. The Belfast & County Down had some 2-4-0Ts that were slightly larger versions of Beattie's LSWR design, for example. BP locos were fitted with some of Beattie's patent devices on his recommendation. I believe he got his hands slapped by the LSWR for the juicy fees he was earning. Can't remember where I read it.

[Donw]

It's not even managed "OK" though. It's just bad. And not even funny bad like a 50s B-movie, just plain bad.

 

 

Issue is I don't know any books by Haggard...

 

SWMBO might not be amused.

 

read SHE

 

Don

[Caley Jim]

[the price of absenting myself from the parish for 24 hours or so – I'm about 3 pages behind everyone else]

It doesn't need to be 24 hours.  A couple is enough!!   

 

Jim

[Donw]

For those with both horses and railways in the family, I recommend this insane electro-equestrian lartigue, which we’ve just had a ride on. Notice the traverses needed for shunting.

 

Reminds me of the Listowell and Ballybunion Railway which had curved turntables to switch the route between lines.

 

It would seem there is some vestige of the line as a tourist attraction.

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

A reproduction, rather than remnant, although there are significant remnants just outside the tourist line, including the entire station building, in a private horse paddock, oddly.

 

Compound - https://www.parclebournat.fr/en/

Edited August 29, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Regularity]

SWMBO might not be amused.

 

read SHE

 

Don

Very, very, very witty.

[runs as required]

For those with both horses and railways in the family, I recommend this insane electro-equestrian lartigue, which we’ve just had a ride on. Notice the traverses needed for shunting.

Reminds me that 18 years ago when the first grandchild was born we had a drunken night with our neighbours and the proud parents up from London (on the still missed GNER) fantasising that we’d build a home-made Lartigue around our then shared back garden for sprogs yet unborn to both sides of the house

 

I drew a sketch which, as you can see, me being far more Civils oriented, was notably vague about locomotive, cylinders and valves.  (it appears to be a sort of reverse Crampton - though I was rather proud of my hinging gate with its rollers on a radial iron track)

Thinking back I am pretty sure I did not know about Lartigue’s 1888 demo at Westminster.

But I’m wondering if my long-time hero Robin Barnes may have done a sketch of a small twin vertical boilered loco which I have ‘borrowed’. Anyone know?

 

Anyway as the powers-that-be told us, when they'd decided to cede the derelict house to us to restore  

“like all recent incumbents,  we think you will never have enough money to spoil it.”

Sadly time has proved them right!

dh

 

Edit: link to Lartigue history page

Edited August 30, 2018 by runs as required

[petethemole]

For those with both horses and railways in the family, I recommend this insane electro-equestrian lartigue, which we’ve just had a ride on. Notice the traverses needed for shunting.

 

Portable showman's version, seen at the fairground at Romsey Show, 2007, ridden by my lad, then aged 7.

 

[Nearholmer]

Clearly, we need a separate thread for these. The horses on the one we rode had numbers, so I envisage a sort of ‘Combined Volume’, for those who like to underline things.

[Hroth]

Three or four concentric ovals (1st to 4th Rad???)  and it could be a horse-racing game....

 

Yee-HAW!