Castle Aching

[Caley Jim]

And, I’ve just remembered this bit of obscuranta, which is definitely of the right kind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmouth_Junction_and_Arthog_Tramway

I'll match your obscurata and raise you the Rothesay and Ettrick Bay Light Railway

 

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Of course four planks is a bit modern if you are the GWR or MR. Still plenty of three plankers around in 1905  - and later.

 

 

Not quite sure where that's coming from re. Midland.

 

Low sided merchandise wagons (dropside or fixed), typically around 1'9" deep, were 2 wide planks in the early days (or later on the LNWR, which retained many very primitive wagon features to the end of the 19th century), moving on to 3 narrower planks - but always 3 planks on the Midland.

 

High sided merchandise wagons, typically around 2'8" - 3'0" deep, were 4 wide planks in the early days (repeat LNWR parenthesis), moving on to 5 narrower planks - but always 5 planks on the Midland.

 

The Midland high-sided merchandise wagons (D299, 5 planks) otnumbered the low-sided ones (D305, 3 planks) by about 3:1 at the end of the century.

 

I've been enjoying the variety of tramway motive power on display today but I do feel that a go-ahead seaside resort development firm would have spent a little of its never-to-be-seen-again capital on a little something from Kitsons of Leeds:

 

 

Got to sneak a Midland engine in somehow!

Edited October 1, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

 

I've been enjoying the variety of tramway motive power on display today but I do feel that a go-ahead seaside resort development firm would have spent a little of its never-to-be-seen-again capital on a little something from Kitsons of Leeds:

 

MR NCC Portstewart tram engine.jpg

 

Got to sneak a Midland engine in somehow!

 

Well, the Great Eastern had one too, so, presumably running somewhere this side of the Irish Sea, but where, I wonder?

 

Luckily we know of a railway that had a tramway jointly run with the GER.  The little Kitson would make for an interesting addition to a G15 and C53.

[Nearholmer]

The GER had a Kitson tram?

 

Or am I mistaking fiction for fact?

 

EDIT: OK, I found it .... The Millwall Extension Railway! Can I resist building a finescale model of the North Greenwich terminus for much longer???!!! Such a mad selection of motive power.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

The GER had a Kitson tram?

 

Or am I mistaking fiction for fact?

 

EDIT: OK, I found it .... The Millwall Extension Railway! Can I resist building a finescale model of the North Greenwich terminus for much longer???!!! Such a mad selection of motive power.

 

Snap!

 

I should have guessed Millwall Extn, and I should have gone straight to the GERS's excellent website:  https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=35

 

‘No. 230 Class’ 0-4-0T 1878

 

230

 

Through the GER's lease of the London & Blackwall Railway, it became involved in the operation of the Millwall Extension Railway from Millwall Junction to North Greenwich - now part of the Docklands Light Railway. Although under two miles long, it was split into four sections owned by three different companies. Steam locomotives were not allowed over the middle sections crossing the East & West India Docks and Millwall Docks, due to the fire risk to ships' sails. The Millwall Dock to North Greenwich section was owned and operated by the GER, and opened in 1872. It was initially operated by the 2-4-0T rebuild of the ECR 'light locomotive' Ariel's Girdle. In 1878 this engine needed replacement, and the GER purchased a standard street tramway engine from Kitson & Co., which was given the number 230.

 

In 1880, the Dock companies' insurers relented, and allowed steam locomotives over the whole line. The existing wooden swing bridges over the dock entrances were strengthened, and the Millwall Dock Co. took responsibility for operating the whole line with their own small locomotives. Thus, No. 230 was redundant. It was not officially withdrawn until 1884 and, even then, it remained intact at Stratford until 1889, when it was rebuilt as the machinery for the Carriage Works traverser. It continued in use thus until the 1930s, when it was replaced by an electric motor.

 

Alternatively, possibly it found itself on the Bishop's Lynn Tramway in 1881!

[TurboSnail]

Well, the Great Eastern had one too, so, presumably running somewhere this side of the Irish Sea, but where, I wonder?

 

Luckily we know of a railway that had a tramway jointly run with the GER.  The little Kitson would make for an interesting addition to a G15 and C53.

 

 I thought that picture was the front view of two different trams, it took me longer than it should have to realise... Not many locomotives are practically square.

[Nearholmer]

My books are still packed away, but in one of them there is a photo and drawings of a very early experimental loco to meet the then new tramway requirements, I think it is a Kitson [EDit: no. I've just remembered' it was Merryweather.], with vertical boiler, and that is, IIRC, shorter than it is wide .... its like a mobile version of the traditional blue police 'phone box, or a Steam Tardis.

 

The MER, successive generations of motive power: Ariel's Girdle, this tram, the tiny little 2-4-0T, then an ex-GWR steam rail-motor! Why on earth hasn't someone modelled it before? The terminus was a classic tiny LR-BLT, stuck on top of an embankment, a stone's throw from central London.

 

An early Merryweather, in a sort of military camp context that might suit the West Norfolk Regiment is visible here http://www.tramwayinfo.com/Tramframe.htm?http://www.tramwayinfo.com/trampostcards/Postc225.htm What the article doesn't mention is that the NRA tramway was also used for some very early electric railway experiments; I can't recall the date precisely without checking, but I think c1882.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

My books are still packed away, but in one of them there is a photo and drawings of a very early experimental loco to meet the then new tramway requirements, I think it is a Kitson [EDit: no. I've just remembered' it was Merryweather.], with vertical boiler, and that is, IIRC, shorter than it is wide .... its like a mobile version of the traditional blue police 'phone box, or a Steam Tardis.

 

The MER, successive generations of motive power: Ariel's Girdle, this tram, the tiny little 2-4-0T, then an ex-GWR steam rail-motor! Why on earth hasn't someone modelled it before? The terminus was a classic tiny LR-BLT, stuck on top of an embankment, a stone's throw from central London.

 

I agree.

 

In addition to two ex-GWR railmotors (No. 42/PLA No.1 and No.49/PLA No.2) there was an ex-Port Talbot Railway railmotor (No.1/PLA No.3): http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/north_greenwich/index14.shtml!

 

The Nidd Valley, which had an end-on connection with the NER, also boasted an ex-GWR railmotor.

 

The little Manning Wardle 2-4-0T was fairly well-photographed, but I have yet to find a picture of the Kitson Tram. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Edwardian

[Martin S-C]

 

A mobile tobacconists kiosk to drive up and down the promenade, what a capital idea!

Edited October 1, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

Loving the rail-motors!

 

I've found a picture of the Steam Tardis, or at least one of its immediate descendants on-line: https://www.todocoleccion.net/catalogos-publicitarios/catalogo-tranvia-1878-merryweather-amb-sons-merryweather-steam-tramway-engine-catalog-1878~x39848128

[ian]

I've found a picture of the Steam Tardis,...

 

Mr O’Doolite meets Dr. Who in his quest to avert the meteorite.

[Donw]

And, I’ve just remembered this bit of obscuranta, which is definitely of the right kind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmouth_Junction_and_Arthog_Tramway

 

I remember seeing the alignment when walking the line to Dolgelley

 

Don 

[Edwardian]

Aire Valley relics spotted on the interweb. I had certainly never seen these in colour before ...

 

 

[Hroth]

Aire Valley relics spotted on the interweb. I had certainly never seen these in colour before ...

Not seen those before either, I like the rail car at the back, looks like the one I'm making for Midsomer Brevis....

[Hroth]

Loving the rail-motors!

 

I've found a picture of the Steam Tardis, or at least one of its immediate descendants on-line: https://www.todocoleccion.net/catalogos-publicitarios/catalogo-tranvia-1878-merryweather-amb-sons-merryweather-steam-tramway-engine-catalog-1878~x39848128

It also doubles as a fire pump in emergencies....

[Edwardian]

While we are inter alia on the subject of railmotors, there is quite a well-known, albeit short-lived, early example from the Bristol & Exeter.  Dating from1850, I have seen this modelled at least once.

 

What I had not known, until yesterday (when looking up Ariel's Girdle) is that the Eastern Counties Railway had introduced a railmotor the year before, 1849.  This would have been standard gauge, as the ECR had adopted this around 1845.

 

According to Allen in 1847 the ECR introduced the first of what at the time were termed "light locomotives"; it was designed by James Samuel, then Engineer of the ECR, and built by W. Bridges Adams, of the Fairfield Works, Bow. This curious machine was 12 ft. 6 in. long, was carried on four wheels, and weighed no more than 1¼ tons. Above the 3 ft. 4 in. driving wheels, at one end of the chassis, stood a vertical boiler, and the other end was provided with seats, the whole forming a kind of mobile inspection coach. On a "Press" trip from Shoreditch to Cambridge, the journey of 47½ miles was completed in 2¼ hours, inclusive of three stops of ten minutes each; the maximum speed attained was 43 mile/h, although on another occasion the Express, as it was called, is said to have reached 47 mile/h. During a period of six months this primitive steam car ran 5,526 miles on a total consumption of 7 tons 9 cwt. of coke, which works out at no more than 3 lb. per mile.

 

In 1849 Adams followed Express by building the first true railcar. On a single rigid frame he mounted at one end a 2 ft. 6 in. diameter boiler, pressed to 120 psi above a 2-2-0 chassis with 8 in. by 12 in. cylinders and 5 ft. diameter driving wheels; at the other end was a four-compartment carriage body seating 42 passengers, carried on two rigid axles. To enable this lengthy combination to traverse the curves, only the end pairs of wheels were provided with flanges. The weight of the whole was 15 tons 7 cwt. On a test trip, the railcar is said to have worked over the 126 miles from Shoreditch to Norwich in 3 hours 35 minutes. Later it was installed on the Enfield branch, which left the main line at Angel Road, and received the name Enfield. In actual working, however, it was found troublesome to have the locomotive and coach on the same frame, and the combination was therefore cut in two; the locomotive was provided with a bunker and a rear pair of wheels, and thus became a 2-2-2 tank. http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/gerloco.htm

 

 

 

   

[corneliuslundie]

For  a suitable recompense, The Welsh mafia (not Taffia, they are from De Cymru) will forgive the slip of referring to Pwllheli as English! I had been going to suggest this line but was beaten to it. I had forgotten Solomon Andrews' Tramway  I think it is mentioned by Boyd. Mr Andrews had big ideas for Arthog, but like Savin's various schemes in the area it never came to much.

The ex-PTR steam rail motor car mentioned above was unique in being the only example with six coupled wheels - to cope with the rather heavy gradients on the line. They had noted the problems on the Barry Railway where the Motor Cars (similar animal, different name) were taken off after just a month on the Barry main line because they couldn't cope with the gradients and curves and were too slow. But at least when in London it did not carry a Pears Soap advert on the side.

However, much as I have loved the discussion, unless there was a fairy godfather to fund the company I cannot see anything similar appearing in CA. The other municipalities in West Norfolk maybe. Rather, I would expect to see the local carrier's wagon waiting outside the station.  or possibly a horse bus, though I suspect that even that would go out of business after a while, the locals not being very attached to the idea of visiting the wider world (ie the Overinghams).

And thank you to Compound for correcting my slur on the MR regarding its wagon stock.

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

PS I hope Edwardian has a steady hand if he intends trying that style of lining out shown on the tramcars.

Jonathan

[Guy Rixon]

The GER had a Kitson tram?

 

Or am I mistaking fiction for fact?

 

EDIT: OK, I found it .... The Millwall Extension Railway! Can I resist building a finescale model of the North Greenwich terminus for much longer???!!! Such a mad selection of motive power.

 

If I ever build a garden railway, as my wife has been urging me to do, then MER of the 1880s in gauge 0 or 1 is a strong possibility.  Were there coal hoists on the MER, or were they all in PLA territory? It's just that the garden to receive this railway borders a brook and discharging coal into a model of a moored collier is an interesting thought. I'm sentenced to spend retirement breaking rocks to line the brook, so I may as well incorporate some features of interest.

[St Enodoc]

If I ever build a garden railway, as my wife has been urging me to do, then MER of the 1880s in gauge 0 or 1 is a strong possibility.  Were there coal hoists on the MER, or were they all in PLA territory? It's just that the garden to receive this railway borders a brook and discharging coal into a model of a moored collier is an interesting thought. I'm sentenced to spend retirement breaking rocks to line the brook, so I may as well incorporate some features of interest.

You lucky man!

[Nearholmer]

Great idea.

 

I think that the MER was ‘pure passenger’, even though it came under PLA ownership sometime very early in C20th.

 

If you look at old OS maps, the northern part of it looks like double track, but I think it was two single lines, one PLA, one MER, in parallel.

 

But, whose to say that things mighn’t Have been different.

 

It really needs to be G1, I think, ‘coz even in 0 the locos and stock would ‘disappear’ in the garden. And, for live steam, probably G3 to give practical boiler and cylinder dimensions without becoming ‘watchmaking’.

[Hroth]

I do like the covered Pwllheli & Llanbedrog tramcar on the left of the picture.

 

Fill-in some 12mm gauge track and you're away.  Now I am sure there has been something posted about making horse move in 4mm scale.

 

I wouldn't be bothered about making the horse move, just suspend it above the track on a phosphor-bronze wire attached to the tram, and move the tram using something like a magnorail system under the baseboard.

 

 

Simples!

[Compound2632]

While we are inter alia on the subject of railmotors, there is quite a well-known, albeit short-lived, early example from the Bristol & Exeter.  Dating from1850, I have seen this modelled at least once.

 

What I had not known, until yesterday (when looking up Ariel's Girdle) is that the Eastern Counties Railway had introduced a railmotor the year before, 1849.  This would have been standard gauge, as the ECR had adopted this around 1845.

 

According to Allen in 1847 the ECR introduced the first of what at the time were termed "light locomotives"; it was designed by James Samuel, then Engineer of the ECR, and built by W. Bridges Adams, of the Fairfield Works, Bow. This curious machine was 12 ft. 6 in. long, was carried on four wheels, and weighed no more than 1¼ tons. Above the 3 ft. 4 in. driving wheels, at one end of the chassis, stood a vertical boiler, and the other end was provided with seats, the whole forming a kind of mobile inspection coach. On a "Press" trip from Shoreditch to Cambridge, the journey of 47½ miles was completed in 2¼ hours, inclusive of three stops of ten minutes each; the maximum speed attained was 43 mile/h, although on another occasion the Express, as it was called, is said to have reached 47 mile/h. During a period of six months this primitive steam car ran 5,526 miles on a total consumption of 7 tons 9 cwt. of coke, which works out at no more than 3 lb. per mile.

 

In 1849 Adams followed Express by building the first true railcar. On a single rigid frame he mounted at one end a 2 ft. 6 in. diameter boiler, pressed to 120 psi above a 2-2-0 chassis with 8 in. by 12 in. cylinders and 5 ft. diameter driving wheels; at the other end was a four-compartment carriage body seating 42 passengers, carried on two rigid axles. To enable this lengthy combination to traverse the curves, only the end pairs of wheels were provided with flanges. The weight of the whole was 15 tons 7 cwt. On a test trip, the railcar is said to have worked over the 126 miles from Shoreditch to Norwich in 3 hours 35 minutes. Later it was installed on the Enfield branch, which left the main line at Angel Road, and received the name Enfield. In actual working, however, it was found troublesome to have the locomotive and coach on the same frame, and the combination was therefore cut in two; the locomotive was provided with a bunker and a rear pair of wheels, and thus became a 2-2-2 tank. http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/gerloco.htm

 

This really does look like an iron horse between the shafts of the carriage. And why wouldn't you think in such terms, even in the late 1840s, if your experience of the Stephensonian railway was limited? Train? What's a train?

[NeilHB]

Well, the Great Eastern had one too, so, presumably running somewhere this side of the Irish Sea, but where, I wonder?

 

Luckily we know of a railway that had a tramway jointly run with the GER. The little Kitson would make for an interesting addition to a G15 and C53.

Oh now that is rather adorable! I do like the Kitson steam trams. Agree that it would be suitable for the lesser-known Bishops Lynn tramway - would certainly be interesting running alongside the usual suspects...

[Northroader]

Do you know, it’s frightening the rate this thread moves at. I just found a job which reinforced something that was said not that long ago, so I looked it up. Our illustrious chairman mentioned it just eleven days back, and I see its twelve pages since, Help! we’re going at over a page a day! Anyhow, Castle Rackrent was brought up, and we briefly touched on Irish Railways. Now, I’ve just found a marvellous example, the thread has been running for two years, and I’ve only just spotted it.

Feast your minces on this, because it’s a great example of an operational OO freelance layout, similar to the aspirations of quite a few folks on this thread, using basic trains which have had a repaint. So it’s 16.5mm Irish, and not pregroup, but still well worth considering, particularly the scenic work.(p.s. it’s got a tramcar)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115161-another-s-d-j-r/page-3

Edited October 2, 2018 by Northroader