Hroth Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Indeed. I remember that when I was small boy the local greengrocer, Mrs Tompsett, would stand in the middle of her shop, not a bit of plastic packaging in sight, and everything, her included, covered with a thin film of soil-dust, imbibing tea from the edge of her saucer, making strange slurping noises that have left a lifelong impression. Thats the abiding memory I have of our local grocers, not a saucer-slurping proprietoress, but the "dustiness" of the place. Its also important to remember the seasonal nature of the business, with none of this "strawberries in January" malarky! It must have been a struggle to maintain an appetising stock through the "hungry months", before fresh spring vegetables became available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Well, it was common, but it does indeed seem to have died out. Mainly because fewer people use cups and saucers. Mugs, either thick pot or bone china are the receptacles of choice for hot beverages at home and those obscene expanded foam mugs for consumption on the hoof. You might get saucers in a tea shoppe, but they tend to be shallow and vestigial in nature anyway. We've got teacups and saucers, but I can't remember when they were last used! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2019 We use our bone china cups and saucers for breakfast every day. One must keep up one's standards, after all. But I have to admit that "afternoon tea" is now usually from mugs. And we also have some little cups and saucers for serving Turkish coffee, but they rarely get used. My abiding memory of the grocer in Llanishen, Cardiff is the row of glass topped tins containing biscuits. i am not sure we often bought any though. something else I thought had died out was the travelling shop until i saw one in our street a few weeks ago, though it was all inside a normal van rather than a walk in affair. Presumably such things are too modern for CA, even if horse powered. Jonathan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbcompound Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Well, of course, all I need to know is that it is sometime in the far future, say about 1912. The material point is that, even if abolition had come sooner, the stock in service would largely have been built to accommodate three classes, so I would still need 3 different compartment widths. The Midland was exceptional in abolishing Second Class at a relatively early date. Well not necessarily three as the difference between second and third could be the standard of the upholstry, or the number expected to sit on each side (three for firstin a wider compartment for more legroom, then in a narrower compartment four for second, and five for third if non corridor?). Equally you might have many different sizes for the same class if your carriages have subtly different lengths Edited January 15, 2019 by webbcompound Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbcompound Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Mainly because fewer people use cups and saucers. Mugs, either thick pot or bone china are the receptacles of choice for hot beverages at home and those obscene expanded foam mugs for consumption on the hoof. You might get saucers in a tea shoppe, but they tend to be shallow and vestigial in nature anyway. We've got teacups and saucers, but I can't remember when they were last used! I was always aware of gendered tea drinking. Grannies had cups and saucers, grandads had pint mugs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Well not necessarily three as the difference between second and third could be the standard of the upholstry, or the number expected to sit on each side (three for firstin a wider compartment for more legroom, then in a narrower compartment four for second, and five for third if non corridor?). Equally you might have many different sizes for the same class if your carriages have subtly different lengths True, but the WNR did in general aim to build compartment sizes based upon the different Classes. The width of each Class of compartment and the degree of comfort in Second and Third may have increased with time. Older coaches might have their compartments 'cascaded' to reflect better the current standards for each Class [EDIT and, perhaps, a relative decline of Second Class tickets in favour of Third]; there is, for instance, a Second Class coach in the 'to do' pile that I suspect might have been down-rated to Third by 1905. Few hard and fast rules, then, but I think there needs to be the sense of a natural development. Edited January 15, 2019 by Edwardian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2019 We use our bone china cups and saucers for breakfast every day. One must keep up one's standards, after all. But I have to admit that "afternoon tea" is now usually from mugs. And we also have some little cups and saucers for serving Turkish coffee, but they rarely get used. My abiding memory of the grocer in Llanishen, Cardiff is the row of glass topped tins containing biscuits. i am not sure we often bought any though. something else I thought had died out was the travelling shop until i saw one in our street a few weeks ago, though it was all inside a normal van rather than a walk in affair. Presumably such things are too modern for CA, even if horse powered. Jonathan Oh yes. Mum often added "a pound of mixed" to our weekly order (which was delivered, by bike, the same day). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Madness of the Day. Jools Holland is the man responsible for this latest flight of fancy. I rather liked his layout, and splashed out on both Railway and Continental Modellers to investigate it. For any unfamiliar, Mr Holland has part of his layout representing the UK, the greater part of which represents a London capriccio, but the scene, and the tracks, then cross the Thames-c u m- Channel to the Netherlands and Germany, ending with a Cold War Berlin scene! Weird? Well, a little bit, but rather wonderful nonetheless. I was discussing this as a possible way to go for a friend of mine who lives in Poland. Out of Miss T's one-time somewhat random layout ideas, I was also toying with the idea of modelling an 1840s-50s micro-layout inspired by the railway scene in the Royal Flash film! Well, with one thing and another, I found the various ideas melding into an alternative (geological!) history. It is not an original idea to base a railway on a fictitious North Sea island, or some version of Doggerland, and it's come up here before. Yet it seems a convenient device to combine several current ideas and I thought that this might be a fun way to blend British, North German and Scandinavian traditions in architecture and railway equipment and infrastructure! The Great British & North German Railway, anyone? The main options would be: (1) Doggerland forming a vast land bridge between UK and the Continent, with the Dogger Bank forming the 'Dogger Hills'; (2) A large island largely representing Dogger Bank (3) Something between the two, with more land and perhaps utilising several islands, with short (train) ferries or, even, bridges, between island(s) and mainland. Obviously there will have to be some liberties with the historic geology, but it might be worth some study of the real geology to see what such a land mass might be like. Pre-inundation, I believe it was tundra. Politically I see the main land mass as belonging to Britain. I suspect with a Royal Navy presence. There might be some German or Danish Islands near to their coasts. One thing for sure, we'd have to come up with a better name than Doggerland, which, I understand, is a modern term derived from Dogger Bank, in turn deriving its name from a species of Dutch fishing boat. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim15B Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Make sure it doesn't form a suitable launch site for Operation Sealion otherwise all our post 1940 history might have to change. The Royal Navy will definitely have to have a presence. I spent much oo my youth devising Isle of Wight-esq schemes for geographically neutral railways. I also have a scheme for something based in Syldavia where I imagine they made much use of Beyer Peacock equipment. Edited January 15, 2019 by Jim15B 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Make sure it doesn't form a suitable launch site for Operation Sealion otherwise all our post 1940 history might have to change. The Royal Navy will definitely have to have a presence. I think with alternative geography must come alternative history, and I'd seek to avoid the interruption to GB&NGR services that a World War would entail! Besides which, I think it fair to say that threat of German aggression has doubtless been overstated, as Noel Coward wrote: Their Bach and their Beethoven is far worse than their bite. Or, indeed, Tom Lehrer: Once all the Germans were warlike and mean But that couldn't happen again We taught them a lesson in 1918 And they've hardly bothered us since then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Make sure it doesn't form a suitable launch site for Operation Sealion otherwise all our post 1940 history might have to change. The Royal Navy will definitely have to have a presence. I spent much oo my youth devising Isle of Wight-esq schemes for geographically neutral railways. I also have a scheme for something based in Syldavia where I imagine they made much use of Beyer Peacock equipment. Not just 1940s, there's also "The Riddle of the Sands" to consider, with German spies charting the waters and archipelago of islets off the Anglian Penninsula in the early years of the 20th Century... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Not just 1940s, there's also "The Riddle of the Sands" to consider, with German spies charting the waters and archipelago of islets off the Anglian Penninsula in the early years of the 20th Century... Jenny Agutter, the Castle Aching equivalent of Mornington Crescent! 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 I was being good and refrained from mentioning Miss Dollmann..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2019 Madness of the Day. Jools Holland is the man responsible for this latest flight of fancy. I rather liked his layout, and splashed out on both Railway and Continental Modellers to investigate it. For any unfamiliar, Mr Holland has part of his layout representing the UK, the greater part of which represents a London capriccio, but the scene, and the tracks, then cross the Thames-c u m- Channel to the Netherlands and Germany, ending with a Cold War Berlin scene! Weird? Well, a little bit, but rather wonderful nonetheless. I was discussing this as a possible way to go for a friend of mine who lives in Poland. Out of Miss T's one-time somewhat random layout ideas, I was also toying with the idea of modelling an 1840s-50s micro-layout inspired by the railway scene in the Royal Flash film! Well, with one thing and another, I found the various ideas melding into an alternative (geological!) history. It is not an original idea to base a railway on a fictitious North Sea island, or some version of Doggerland, and it's come up here before. Yet it seems a convenient device to combine several current ideas and I thought that this might be a fun way to blend British, North German and Scandinavian traditions in architecture and railway equipment and infrastructure! The Great British & North German Railway, anyone? The main options would be: (1) Doggerland forming a vast land bridge between UK and the Continent, with the Dogger Bank forming the 'Dogger Hills'; (2) A large island largely representing Dogger Bank (3) Something between the two, with more land and perhaps utilising several islands, with short (train) ferries or, even, bridges, between island(s) and mainland. Obviously there will have to be some liberties with the historic geology, but it might be worth some study of the real geology to see what such a land mass might be like. Pre-inundation, I believe it was tundra. Politically I see the main land mass as belonging to Britain. I suspect with a Royal Navy presence. There might be some German or Danish Islands near to their coasts. One thing for sure, we'd have to come up with a better name than Doggerland, which, I understand, is a modern term derived from Dogger Bank, in turn deriving its name from a species of Dutch fishing boat. Layouts located on fictitious islands were a fairly common theme in the 50s and 60s. Before that of course was the famous Gutland Railway built by Captain W Kelly in Kent. It later became, as the GUR-RUG Railway, an attraction at the Museon di Rodo in Uzès, France. There is an extensive article on this later incarnation, in French, in the September 1965 issue of Loco-Revue, which can be read here: http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/loco-revue/numero-254-septembre-1965/page-24-25-texte-integral 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Layouts located on fictitious islands were a fairly common theme in the 50s and 60s. Before that of course was the famous Gutland Railway built by Captain W Kelly in Kent. It later became, as the GUR-RUG Railway, an attraction at the Museon di Rodo in Uzès, France. There is an extensive article on this later incarnation, in French, in the September 1965 issue of Loco-Revue, which can be read here: http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/loco-revue/numero-254-septembre-1965/page-24-25-texte-integral Fascinating. Using Google translate for speed: Kelly's network, the "Gutland Railways", was an "O" network important that stood in two adjoining rooms offering a total usable area of 180 square meters. In principle, the network consists of a terminus station with six lanes, six passenger lanes, a freight sorting yard of about ten lanes, a depot with a swing bridge which could be used in September 1965. None of which explains the presence of a GW 4-6-0 ...! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) You chaps have really set my little grey cells working. Hroth - More on Mrs Tompsett ....... she had a long-nosed Ford lorry, with a canvas tilt, which she used to bump round to various farms in, usually at the crack of dawn, to collect whatever was available., the sturdy wooden veg boxes going straight into the shop, hence the soil, and hence various invertebrates that came free with the produce. She did have oranges and bananas, the latter from a ripening depot that was about an hours chug away. And, she wore wellington boots, a big apron, and a head-scarf, 24/7/365 so far as anyone could work out. The weird thing is that this all sounds pretty old-school, but it was only the 1960s ....... the entire high street, and everyone in it, seemed to survive in a time-warp from the 1930s (my father remembered it all in detail, who owned which shop etc) until c1982, then everything seemed to change all at once. Cross-channel railways: this came up in my thread a while back, and I would still really like two sheds, linked by a train ferry mounted on a sort of tea-trolley, to shuttle between them. Probably three scenes in each shed. "England" would have a London terminus, the orchards of Kent and a channel port. "France" would have a channel port, a scene where the line ran along cliffs above the Med, and a terminus based on Nice, which has a most wonderfully delicate iron roof, all the ironwork being painted white, and small palm trees growing on the platforms, even under the roof. This to be in "tinplate" 0 gauge. Edited January 15, 2019 by Nearholmer 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2019 One of the prize items of motive power on the WNR is a GNoSR 4-4-0, did any of the coaches come with it, as they never did have second class, setting a standard for others to copy? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Indeed. I remember that when I was small boy the local greengrocer, Mrs Tompsett, would stand in the middle of her shop, not a bit of plastic packaging in sight, and everything, her included, covered with a thin film of soil-dust, imbibing tea from the edge of her saucer, making strange slurping noises that have left a lifelong impression. Were the strange slurping noises related in any way to the drinking of the tea, or were these alarming sound effects unrelated to that activity? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2019 My abiding memory of the grocer in Llanishen, Cardiff is the row of glass topped tins containing biscuits. i am not sure we often bought any though. I am sorry to lower the tone, but I can remember working out that my pocket money would go further, if I bought biscuits rather than sweets. Woolworth's in Leatherhead used to have biscuits that you could buy loose. I don't remember whether they were in glass-topped tins, but I assume so. The pink wafers were my favorites as you got a lot for 6d. Where the A38 crossed the S&DJR line to Burnham, Mervyn Knight had his greengrocers next to the level crossing. In my school holidays I used to help him by stacking tins of peas, beans, fruit etc. My reward was often a bag of broken biscuits and usually some fruit and veg, for Mum. He must have had glass topped tins as well I guess. His wife Gwen ran the bakers shop, which joined on to his shop at the back, but was separated at the shops' frontage by a tiny watch-menders' shop. (OK that should probably have been a watch-mender's tiny shop!) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin S-C Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 One of the prize items of motive power on the WNR is a GNoSR 4-4-0, did any of the coaches come with it, as they never did have second class, setting a standard for others to copy? Oh. Not that GN&SR. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
webbcompound Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Fiction? Pshaw. Not needed. Phase two of my historically accurate layout (Connah's Quay 1904-6) will be the Joint terminus (Britain's only Union Station) at Emilia docks, situated in the alpine coastal district of Birkenhead, where all kinds of transatlantic and Hibernian traffic will arrive. With no need to invent rolling stock the station will provide facilities for the LNWR, the GWR, the GCR, the Cheshire Lines, the WM&CQR, the Wirral Railway and the Mersey Railway, all of which actually served Birkenhead. You may be wondering about the alpine scenery. Lovers of Opera will know that the docks are named after the 18th Century Emilia di Liverpool, documented by Donizetti, who was confined to the Liverpool Convent, in the Alpine valleys, a few leagues from London, (clearly a reference to the Wildreness of Wirral, home of Sir Gawain's Green Knight), from where she is ultimately rescued by her lover, who has been a slave of the Barbary Pirates for twenty years, and has returned disguised as a sailor, pausing only to help the local mountaineers rescue her father from a coach which has been washed into the flooded Mersey.. Oh, do keep up. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Presumably one inhales the plot through one nostril at a time, keeping the other closed by pressing a forefinger against it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Oh. Not that GN&SR. Did you mean this GNoSR? From a collection of postcard-style prints Dad acquired from a Mr. Beckerlegge. I say acquired because I don't know if he bought them or was given them. (It was in the days before you were 'gifted' things.) Edited January 15, 2019 by phil_sutters 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Fiction? Pshaw. Not needed. Phase two of my historically accurate layout (Connah's Quay 1904-6) will be the Joint terminus (Britain's only Union Station) at Emilia docks, situated in the alpine coastal district of Birkenhead, where all kinds of transatlantic and Hibernian traffic will arrive. With no need to invent rolling stock the station will provide facilities for the LNWR, the GWR, the GCR, the Cheshire Lines, the WM&CQR, the Wirral Railway and the Mersey Railway, all of which actually served Birkenhead. You may be wondering about the alpine scenery. Lovers of Opera will know that the docks are named after the 18th Century Emilia di Liverpool, documented by Donizetti, who was confined to the Liverpool Convent, in the Alpine valleys, a few leagues from London, (clearly a reference to the Wildreness of Wirral, home of Sir Gawain's Green Knight), from where she is ultimately rescued by her lover, who has been a slave of the Barbary Pirates for twenty years, and has returned disguised as a sailor, pausing only to help the local mountaineers rescue her father from a coach which has been washed into the flooded Mersey.. Oh, do keep up. Her father, allowing for translation from the Italian, being Claud, Count of Liverpool. He would make a suitable Director of the WNR! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) Fiction? Pshaw. Not needed. Phase two of my historically accurate layout (Connah's Quay 1904-6) will be the Joint terminus (Britain's only Union Station) at Emilia docks, situated in the alpine coastal district of Birkenhead, where all kinds of transatlantic and Hibernian traffic will arrive. With no need to invent rolling stock the station will provide facilities for the LNWR, the GWR, the GCR, the Cheshire Lines, the WM&CQR, the Wirral Railway and the Mersey Railway, all of which actually served Birkenhead. You may be wondering about the alpine scenery. You will have to do some extensive pug-bashing to create this little sweetie. Once named Queen - presumably until HMQV was not amused. Edited January 15, 2019 by phil_sutters 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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