Castle Aching

[drmditch]

I've a book about the politics behind the development of the Dreadnoughts, but I can't recall its name, author or know where it is in my bookstacks!  However, its a thick brick of a book, so there must be something interesting in it....

 

As for newspapers in general, once you realise they have some political axe to grind (subtle or not), then you tend to lose faith in the whole tribe.  Of course, the ones that are low-grade gossip rags can be disregarded at face value!

 

Ok.  A bit of simple googling after I wrote the above produced the info that the book is "Dreadnought" by Robert K Massie.  As I thought, the development of the super-battleship is set in the context of European political developments from late Victorian times to the eve of WW1. Its a fairly old book (1991) so there may be more modern views to be had.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought_(book)

 

The Robert Massie book makes a good read and is largely (to my reading/knowledge) accurate.

 

There is a re-print of what was still in 1913 called 'Brassey's Naval Annual' (I think the re-print for 1913 is just called 'The Naval Annual'). I can't place my hands on my copy at the moment.

This, if you are interested in speed, turning circles, construction, armour and projectiles, can be quite fascinating. It does provide a contemporary view of all naval activity in the world at that time.

 

When I was an undergraduate the University Library stacks housed a complete set from 1886.

I was the first person ever to have borrowed the copies. A great relief from student angst!

 

If you want the best account of Jutland, the climacteric battle that never was, then 'The Rules of the Game' by Andrew Gordon is excellent.

(I think it may have been mentioned on this thread before.)

 

The German Naval Museum at Laboe, near Kiel, has the best large scale charts of Jutland that I have seen. 

 

I would suggest you ignore the more populist television programmes.

 

However, and not just because this is now well 'off-thread', remember those lads, stokers and trimmers, who delivered the motive power for the majority of these ships. Working flat out in (away from the actual boiler rooms) cold and dimly lit compartments shoveling coal onto metal skids, while the whole ship shook to the percussion of her own guns and the transmitted blows of enemy hits. Many of these poor souls would have still been alive in watertight compartments when ships sank.

 

By-the-way, in reply to an earlier post about the efficiency of dreadnought battleships as weapon systems, (and if I remember correctly) the overall combined hit-rate (British and German) at Jutland was about 3%. One of the problems was that for German shell that 3% was likely to penetrate armour and do significant damage. British shell was less effective.

 

So, I need to get back to my railway please. Some of that Edwardian and Georgian technology survives!

 

EDIT - This post overlapped with Martin S-C's above. Massie's 'Castles of Steel' is also very good, but does contain the odd inacuracy. He is American after all.

Edited January 17, 2019 by drmditch

[Edwardian]

Daily Mail ...  'analysis' consisted of loads of jingoistic verbiage, maps with arrows, as per the opening of Dad's Army, and pictures of planes/ship pointing out their armaments. It struck me that this wasn't really helping me to understand the 'whys and wherefores', which I guessed might be subtle, and I then looked at the rest of the paper more thoughtfully, and never bought it again.)

 

With apologies to WS Gilbert:

 

Never mind the whys and wherefores

Cant and hate sell rags and therefore ...

[Northroader]

I think I'd better buy/borrow/steal a book about Dreadnoughts.

 

Can anyone recommend a current one that goes into the strategic and 'arms race' aspects, rather than being the written equivalent of an eagle cutaway diagram.

I’d go with Martin in recommending “The Rules of the Game”. If nothing else, I regard it as a model of how to do your research for a book.

[Nearholmer]

Very good Edwardian, totally in keeping with the current outbreak of nautical references.

[Edwardian]

Very good Edwardian, totally in keeping with the current outbreak of nautical references.

 

And I never, ever quip at thee

[DonB]

Look at www.Bookfinder.com  (no connection other than  a couple of purchases)... For copies of  "Dreadnought" by Robert K Massie.  currently 24  offers from £2.75 for 1000 pages!

I'm sure that all the others mentioned above are there too . almost always with a cheaper / wider selection than Amazon

[Nearholmer]

What, never?

 

(This could go on!)

Edited January 17, 2019 by Nearholmer

[James Harrison]

Another vote for 'Dreadnought' and 'Castles of Steel' from this quarter. 

[martinT]

I'm still not sure that Warrington was the furthest GWR point "north of Wolverhampton".  Having dug out an old OS 1" sheet 100, I see that West Kirby Joint lies at 213870 and Birkenhead Woodside at 329891.  As Warrington is split between the extreme edges of sheets 100 and 101 its a bit difficult to determine where the "official" point might be, but I can't make out anything that is logically above 600890!

 

 

Sheet 100 https://maps.nls.uk/view/91576426

Sheet 101 https://maps.nls.uk/view/91576429

 

(Source: National Library of ScotlanD)

Interesting! Woodside is definitely the furthest north but Beck actually claimed Warrington to be 'the furthest point on the GWR "North of Wolverhampton" ' (quoting the name of his book).

 

I've just checked mileages in Cooke's GWR Atlas. Distances (miles-chains) from Chester work out as:

• Birkenhead Woodside: 15-14
• Walton Junction: 17-09
• West Kirby: 19-76

so West Kirby is the remotest point even if we add on a couple of miles to the Walton Junc mileage to get to Warrington.

 

Martin

[Edwardian]

Interesting! Woodside is definitely the furthest north but Beck actually claimed Warrington to be 'the furthest point on the GWR "North of Wolverhampton" ' (quoting the name of his book).

 

I've just checked mileages in Cooke's GWR Atlas. Distances (miles-chains) from Chester work out as:

• Birkenhead Woodside: 15-14
• Walton Junction: 17-09
• West Kirby: 19-76

so West Kirby is the remotest point even if we add on a couple of miles to the Walton Junc mileage to get to Warrington.

 

Martin

 

The uttermost North!

[Donw]

Whether BH Woodside was furthest north or not the were daily services between there and Barmouth in 1904  which of course required an engine change  at Dolgelley. The were also daily through carriages between Pwllheli, Barmouth and Manchester these I would assume were swapped to a Manchester bound service at either Chester or Ruabon.

 

Don 

 

 

ps as for the uttermost North the 1904 timetable does show connection times from Inverness to Barmouth.  wounder how many made that trip.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Donw

[Hroth]

What, never?

 

(This could go on!)

Well hardly ever!

 

The uttermost North!

Ultima Thule!

 

I've stood on that platform.

 

(it was a bit distressed by then...)

[Nearholmer]

Wind back a bit...... are you guys saying that GWR trains ran to Warrington and to West Kirby?

 

B heck ..... I just read the disused stations site.

 

Having used the ‘electric’ station, I had no idea there’d ever been another bit.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Nearholmer

[webbcompound]

Whether BH Woodside was furthest north or not the were daily services between there and Barmouth in 1904  which of course required an engine change  at Dolgelley. The were also daily through carriages between Pwllheli, Barmouth and Manchester these I would assume were swapped to a Manchester bound service at either Chester or Ruabon.

 

Don 

 

 

ps as for the uttermost North the 1904 timetable does show connection times from Inverness to Barmouth.  wounder how many made that trip.

Also in 1906/10 according to the LNWR marshalling instructions GW traffic came from Cardiff, Kingswear and Falmouth through Bristol, then via Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe. At Crewe the Manchester and Liverpool sections were split and Cambrian coaches were attached. By 1910 a whole rake of LSWR carriages was making its way to Birkenhead

[Regularity]

I've stood on that platform.

 

(it was a bit distressed by then...)

Because of the passage of time, or you standing on it?

[Hroth]

Wind back a bit...... are you guys saying that GWR trains ran to Warrington and to West Kirby?

 

B heck ..... I just read the disused stations site.

 

Having used the ‘electric’ station, I had no idea there’d ever been another bit.

 

Its where the concrete sugar cube and the shut down firestation now is.

Because of the passage of time, or you standing on it?

*sigh*

 

passage of time, dear boy!

[runs as required]

So what went on in the GWR Goods station by the Albert Dock across the Mersey from Woodside?

 

I used to wander round all these interesting spots as a student in the mid 1950s, but can't remember whether it was just lighters coming across from the Birkenhead Docks proper or whether there were rails connecting into the building for waggons off the MDHB dock road lines (below the "dockers' umbrella")

(sorry trying to get my head around the s/h MacBook that has just been cascaded down to me to replace the old xp PC. Very different for an old git to get his fat fingers used to.)

dh

[runs as required]

Does the WNR now have a line to Royston Vasey?

I have just seen "The Favourite" and am happy to say that the vet who kills all the animals in Royston Vasey (Hadfield) plays the Duke of Marlborough.

Cracking good film - reminded me of a naughtier ""Draughtsman's Contract"

dh

[Edwardian]

I have just seen "The Favourite" and am happy to say that the vet who kills all the animals in Royston Vasey (Hadfield) plays the Duke of Marlborough.

Cracking good film - reminded me of a naughtier ""Draughtsman's Contract"

dh

 

Would you take a seat, Mr. Tinsel. I have some rather upsetting news.

[Hroth]

I have just seen "The Favourite" and am happy to say that the vet who kills all the animals in Royston Vasey (Hadfield) plays the Duke of Marlborough.

Cracking good film - reminded me of a naughtier ""Draughtsman's Contract"

dh

 

Gosh!

 

At the time (if I recall correctly) "The Draughtmans Contract" was considered pretty racy!

[Edwardian]

I do want to see The Favourite but certificate 15, so won't get Miss T in.  

 

There was a special episode of The League set in Victorian times with a Monkey's Paw type explanation, the Curse of the Chinnerys

[Guy Rixon]

I think I'd better buy/borrow/steal a book about Dreadnoughts.

 

Can anyone recommend a current one that goes into the strategic and 'arms race' aspects, rather than being the written equivalent of an eagle cutaway diagram.

 

(Which, very OT, reminds my when the shades fell from my eyes about the Daily Mail. I used to buy it some days, partly because it was a usable size for reading on the crowded train to work. Then the Falklands War came along - the recent one with Argentina, not the one with Dreadnoughts - and the DM 'analysis' consisted of loads of jingoistic verbiage, maps with arrows, as per the opening of Dad's Army, and pictures of planes/ship pointing out their armaments. It struck me that this wasn't really helping me to understand the 'whys and wherefores', which I guessed might be subtle, and I then looked at the rest of the paper more thoughtfully, and never bought it again.)

 

Castles of Steel, as suggested by Martin, is an excellent book and you should certainly get that one; it's fun to read if you like naval history. For the arms-race aspect, however, Mr. Massie's earlier book Dreadnought is more relevant, in that it covers the peacetime developments up to 1914. It's a very long and serious book and you may need a scholastic retreat to finish it.

[Northroader]

In Birkenhead, the GWR did get a bit farther north than Woodside, the passenger station. The Birkenhead joint also threw off a line north from Rock Ferry, which fetched up at the Float, where it linked into MDHB lines all round the docks in this area, and carried heavy freight traffic out, so you could see 28xx and the small panniers. According to the map, a branch line off this crossed the south dock locks, and was pure GWR, serving their Morpeth Dock goods..

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Northroader

[St Enodoc]

In Birkenhead, the GWR did get a bit farther north than Woodside, the passenger station. The Birkenhead joint also threw off a line north from Rock Ferry, which fetched up at the Float, where it linked into MDHB lines all round the docks in this area, and carried heavy freight traffic out, so you could see 28xx and the small panniers. According to the map, a branch line off this crossed the south dock locks, and was pure GWR, serving their Morpeth Dock goods..

 

7B2BABE0-F183-4674-9270-C6DE5FD55A89.jpeg

Who will be the first to model the Manure Works (not I, I hasten to add)?

[Hroth]

In Birkenhead, the GWR did get a bit farther north than Woodside, the passenger station. The Birkenhead joint also threw off a line north from Rock Ferry, which fetched up at the Float, where it linked into MDHB lines all round the docks in this area, and carried heavy freight traffic out, so you could see 28xx and the small panniers. According to the map, a branch line off this crossed the south dock locks, and was pure GWR, serving their Morpeth Dock goods..

 

7B2BABE0-F183-4674-9270-C6DE5FD55A89.jpeg

 

Another GWR connection with the banks of the Mersy Estuary is that if you look at the map opposite Rock Ferry, the spot marked "muddy banks" is where Brunels SS Great Eastern was beached and broken up.  Parts of the hull still lie under the mud.

 

 

And look!

 

The Bidston Alps are marked too!