Castle Aching

[Hroth]

5 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

In the dental context, 'appliances ' means partial dentures, obturators, removable orthodontic appliances,etc.  Perhaps you mean dental instruments? 

 

Jim 

 

You're quite correct - I should have specified "instruments", though the Erstwhile Collection would include appliances such as Etruscan bridgework, picked up as a curiosity on the Grand Tour by an 18th Century Erstwhile, examples of carved wooden and ivory dentures and a handful of Waterloo Teeth.  I should think that later partial dentures constructed on gold plates, with either paste or hard porcelain teeth pin-mounted on the plate would be too modern and indeed still be in use by elderly members of the family!  As for orthodontics, was it practiced in the early 20th century? Thinking about it, I can only imagine the use of swaged gold plates with gold retaining wires to force an arch into a better shape.  At that time, any obturators would probably be fabricated in gold as Vulcanite would be too heavy to stay in the mouth, being impossible to make in box form.

 

As far as instruments were concerned, they would amount to a collection of Pelicans, other similar tooth keys and early tooth pliers, along with some hand instruments for digging out decayed patches.  I'd like to think that a pedal operated dental drill might be included as an example of modernity!

 

Talking of Vulcanite, have you ever come across its use later than the 1970s?  I know for certain that one dental hospital produced vulcanite dentures for patients presenting with an intolerance to acrylic dentures as late as then. The practice was discontinued when the Vulcaniser was condemned as unsafe...

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

It also meant rubbing shoulders with the criminal bar in the robing room.  I once overheard two of them in Liverpool:

 

"What have you got today then?"

 

"Drug dealer found dead in the gutter"

 

"Oh, so a litter offence"

 

The "Criminal Bar" sounds perjorative...

 

But the case sounds reasonable. More than one would be classed as flytipping!

 

[Caley Jim]

6 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

  As for orthodontics, was it practiced in the early 20th century? Thinking about it, I can only imagine the use of swaged gold plates with gold retaining wires to force an arch into a better shape.  ..............

Talking of Vulcanite, have you ever come across its use later than the 1970s?  I know for certain that one dental hospital produced vulcanite dentures for patients presenting with an intolerance to acrylic dentures as late as then. The practice was discontinued when the Vulcaniser was condemned as unsafe...

IIRC from my days in Dental school, they used hickory pegs inserted in gold plates to push instanding teeth forwards.  The hickory absorbed moisture from the saliva and expanded, thus exerting gentle pressure.

 

As far as vulcanite is concerned, I never used it, but in the early 70's we used to get the occasional broken vulcanite denture in for repair.  This was done by keying a section of acrylic into the break.

 

Jim

[DonB]

I have often wondered why dental plastic has not found it's way into the modelling world, it has the ability to replicate fine detail and hold thin sections.

 

Getting away from Dentistry and back to Brickwork,  the subject is really outside my industrial expertise, but I do know that over the years, say post 1960, there was a rapid decline in the number of clay pits, and accompanied by closure of the brickworks. and the use of the bottle shaped kiln was largely abandoned for a form of continuous production with modern temperature control of the firing giving a more uniform product. all these factors resulting in less choice of brick colours. 

This means that a modern brick house-extension to a pre-war house will generally stick out like a sore thumb.

[TurboSnail]

I built a 3D scanner for a dental lab over the summer, and they did a lot of 3D printing for student training purposes. The resin they used for the teaching lab specimens is exactly the same stuff I use to print my models, including Edwardian's M&GN Fox Walker, so I guess this talk of dentistry is not entirely off topic?

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, DonB said:

I have often wondered why dental plastic has not found it's way into the modelling world, it has the ability to replicate fine detail and hold thin sections.

The plastic commonly used for dentures is (was?) acrylic which requires heat to polymerize it.  There is a chemically cured version, used for repairs, but neither are really suitable for injection moulding.  It is also rather brittle in fine section and is not affected by the solvents used for styrene.  Many years ago I produced a couple of kits for CR wagons in cold-cure, using moulds made from silicon based impression materials, but it was a laborious process, not suitable for other than private use.

 

Having said that, i'm out of touch now after 10 years retired and things can move rapidly in the field of dental materials.  Tim Watson can tell you more.

57 minutes ago, TurboSnail said:

I built a 3D scanner for a dental lab over the summer, and they did a lot of 3D printing for student training purposes. The resin they used for the teaching lab specimens is exactly the same stuff I use to print my models, including Edwardian's M&GN Fox Walker, so I guess this talk of dentistry is not entirely off topic?

I suspect this plastic, while OK for training purposes, would be totally unsuitable for the harsh environment of the mouth.

 

Jim

[TT-Pete]

20 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

 Perhaps you mean dental instruments? 

 

 

Like these? 

 

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, TurboSnail said:

I built a 3D scanner for a dental lab over the summer, and they did a lot of 3D printing for student training purposes. The resin they used for the teaching lab specimens is exactly the same stuff I use to print my models, including Edwardian's M&GN Fox Walker, so I guess this talk of dentistry is not entirely off topic?

 

 

I have a photon 3D printer and you can get specific dentist-compliant resin for it, also they have their own facebook group for you if you are a dentist and you have a 3D resin printer:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/557346457966169/

 

In Australia it is against the law for dentists to show their face on TV. I think.

Edited February 6, 2019 by monkeysarefun

[Compound2632]

Oh dear this does all seem to be getting out of hand again. One way to restore normality is to post a photo of JA. I'm abstemeously abstaining from that on this occasion. Instead, I would like to draw the attention of the parish to this interesting thread, which has morphed from an initial grumble about the lack of Suffolk PO liveries inappropriately applied to RTR models of RCH 1923 spec 12 tom wagons into a discussion about the activities of Thomas Moy. Apart from his well-known dominance of the East Anglian coal trade (by sea and land), it turns out that he also had a wagon-building firm in Peterborough, the hub of his operations. There's some interesting discussion and finally clarification of his modus operandus, using Tonon as a concentration depot - so the Midland route between Toton and Peterborough would see plenty of his wagons. Googling, one finds his advertising, listing the country stations in Great Eastern and Midland & Great Northern territory at which he had depots. It's clearly not a complete list, as Atchingham and Castle Aching are omitted.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh dear this does all seem to be getting out of hand again. One way to restore normality is to post a photo of JA. I'm abstemeously abstaining from that on this occasion. Instead, I would like to draw the attention of the parish to this interesting thread, which has morphed from an initial grumble about the lack of Suffolk PO liveries inappropriately applied to RTR models of RCH 1923 spec 12 tom wagons into a discussion about the activities of Thomas Moy. Apart from his well-known dominance of the East Anglian coal trade (by sea and land), it turns out that he also had a wagon-building firm in Peterborough, the hub of his operations. There's some interesting discussion and finally clarification of his modus operandus, using Tonon as a concentration depot - so the Midland route between Toton and Peterborough would see plenty of his wagons. Googling, one finds his advertising, listing the country stations in Great Eastern and Midland & Great Northern territory at which he had depots. It's clearly not a complete list, as Atchingham and Castle Aching are omitted.

In the absence of JA, I"m quite happy to ogle KK instead.

[Edwardian]

HQ Company, 3rd (Volunteer) Battalion, West Norfolk Regiment, recruits extensively from among company servants.

 

Here Sergeant Abel, in civilian life a foreman at the Aching Constable Works and keen amateur taxidermist, explains how they don't like it up 'em. 

 

Mr Coldham, Assistant Superintendent, looks on, while the drummer, Billy Trett, who is only a fitter, has never felt able to ask why, if he is the drummer, he has a bugle. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Edwardian

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh dear this does all seem to be getting out of hand again. One way to restore normality is to post a photo of JA. I'm abstemeously abstaining from that on this occasion. Instead, I would like to draw the attention of the parish to this interesting thread, which has morphed from an initial grumble about the lack of Suffolk PO liveries inappropriately applied to RTR models of RCH 1923 spec 12 tom wagons into a discussion about the activities of Thomas Moy. Apart from his well-known dominance of the East Anglian coal trade (by sea and land), it turns out that he also had a wagon-building firm in Peterborough, the hub of his operations. There's some interesting discussion and finally clarification of his modus operandus, using Tonon as a concentration depot - so the Midland route between Toton and Peterborough would see plenty of his wagons. Googling, one finds his advertising, listing the country stations in Great Eastern and Midland & Great Northern territory at which he had depots. It's clearly not a complete list, as Atchingham and Castle Aching are omitted.

They also left off Hopewood on Sea and Windweather as well so plainly that list needs updating.  I really do need to devise a MOY wagon though since the GER encouraged the use of PO wagons for coal traffic since they weren't that interested in building any coal traffic wagons themselves.

 

You've painted those figures beautifully James.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Annie
more to say

[corneliuslundie]

Be warned! If you get us PO wagon freaks going on East Anglian PO wagons there will be no room on the thread for discussion of either Edwardian's figures or his buildings.

Peterborough Coal Company

That's just a warning shot.

Jonathan

[jwealleans]

I'll just leave this here.....

 

[Regularity]

Killing me...

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I'll just leave this here.....

 

 

Snap!

[jwealleans]

Gets about a bit, that wagon.

[Northroader]

Passing on information gleaned from HMRS journal vol 18,no10, an article by mr. Keith Turton, Coote and Warren Ltd. was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in Britain, covering the whole of East Angular from S.Yorks E. Midlands coalfields. Thomas Coote and Frederick Warren both from St.Ives, Huntingdon, ran separate firms as coal traders and wagon builders. They were directors on each other’s boards and finally merged in 1908, when they were delivering 34,000 wagon loads a year, and had a wagon works at Peterborough. Stephen may like to know that they preferred routing via the MR in preference to the GNR(!) The merger is a bit late for Washbourne in reality, so rule 1 applies.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Gets about a bit, that wagon.

 

In this case via the MGN junction with the WNR just north of the WNR's Massingham Magna Station.

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Passing on information gleaned from HMRS journal vol 18,no10, an article by mr. Keith Turton, Coote and Warren Ltd. was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in Britain, covering the whole of East Angular from S.Yorks E. Midlands coalfields. Thomas Coote and Frederick Warren both from St.Ives, Huntingdon, ran separate firms as coal traders and wagon builders. They were directors on each other’s boards and finally merged in 1908, when they were delivering 34,000 wagon loads a year, and had a wagon works at Peterborough. Stephen may like to know that they preferred routing via the MR in preference to the GNR(!) The merger is a bit late for Washbourne in reality, so rule 1 applies.

 

The merger is also a bit late for CA. 

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Snap!

And it's one that I can run  quite legitimately on the Hopewood & Windweather Tramway too.  I'm still looking for some good pictures of MOY wagons though.  Arthur Tassell of Kings Lynn is another coal trader that might be another good choice.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Not to mention it has a slightly amusing name on it. 

[Edwardian]

37 minutes ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

Not to mention it has a slightly amusing name on it. 

 

Which, you'll notice, no one is mentioning. Jonathan's picture did include a visual commentary.

 

44 minutes ago, Annie said:

And it's one that I can run  quite legitimately on the Hopewood & Windweather Tramway too.  I'm still looking for some good pictures of MOY wagons though.  Arthur Tassell of Kings Lynn is another coal trader that might be another good choice.

 

Dennick is also King's Lynn, but the wagon is simply lettered "Lynn", which works especially well for me because it suggests that Dennick might have had a presence in Bishop's Lynn. 

 

I would be both interested and grateful for anything you manage to dig up concerning either Moy or Tassell. 

[Annie]

There's been one or two not very convincing limited run RTR models of a Tassell wagon and I have an old Paulz Trainz digital model which isn't all that good either. 

A Tassell coal wagon is rumoured to be at the railway museum at York apparently.  And just as a by the way Arthur Tassell was the German vice-consul for Kings Lynn which did not make him at all popular during the war.

And there is a reference for Arthur Tassell in this PDF complied by the Welsh Railways Research Circle   http://www.wrrc.org.uk/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf

 

I haven't done any real looking about for MOY wagons yet.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Northroader said:

Passing on information gleaned from HMRS journal vol 18,no10, an article by mr. Keith Turton, Coote and Warren Ltd. was one of the largest provincial coal dealers in Britain, covering the whole of East Angular from S.Yorks E. Midlands coalfields. Thomas Coote and Frederick Warren both from St.Ives, Huntingdon, ran separate firms as coal traders and wagon builders. They were directors on each other’s boards and finally merged in 1908, when they were delivering 34,000 wagon loads a year, and had a wagon works at Peterborough. Stephen may like to know that they preferred routing via the MR in preference to the GNR(!) The merger is a bit late for Washbourne in reality, so rule 1 applies.

 

 

I've been trying to work out where the Moy and Coote/Warren/Coote & Warren wagon works might be, from the OS 25" maps (NLS site). The c. 1885 and c. 1900 surveys show two "Carriage Works", one in a field with apparently no public road access just south of the Great Eastern station, the other on a spur off the Midland lines, west of the Great Northern station at the corner of Thorpe Road and, of course, Midland Road. In the 1924 revision, this has become "Wagon repair shed". It is entirely natural that they should connect with the main line at Peterborough, the LNWR/Midland/Great Eastern coal road, and not with the piddling north-south passenger tramway.

 

Before the Coote & Warren merger, did they both have wagon works in Peterborough or only one of them?

 

I'm drawn to the idea that they each had their distinct territory, Mr Warren serving the sandy uplands of West Norfolk (see recent discussions) and Mr Coote, the Broads.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Coote set up in 1847, with a coal trading office at St. Ives, and  a wagon building, repair and hire works at Peterborough. This is just described as in the GER yard there. Warren set up his business in London, heavily based on the GER and LTS lines, but prior to the merger took over some small traders in Middlesex and Surrey. They had overlapping directorships, and family members continued the business, although large shareholders in the 1930s were Bolsover, Butterley, and Kingsbury. The firm also hired wagons to increase the fleet, and it looks as if they master minded coal flow using the wagons belonging to the coalfield producers. The article also points out that they did spot trading on the London Coal Exchange, so that wagons from Albert Usher, Spenser Wheatley, Cleeves and Co, Philip Speakman, and Myers Rose, not established E. Anglia suppliers, could appear there.