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45 minutes ago, Jim15B said:

I collect horse brasses and recently saw an image of a MOY brass, but can't recall where. They presumably undertook local (horse drawn) delivery as well as wagon loads.

 

That's mainstream. The best information about Thomas Moy I found online was from the Bulletin of the Perfin Society.

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We were in Sandwich yesterday and noticed the Drill Hall (no longer in military use) on the Quay.  Built in 1869 for the 2nd Cinque Ports Artillery Volunteers, it is attached to the medieval (but heavily restored) Fishergate next door.  According to Historic England (https://research.historicengland.org.uk/redirect.aspx?id=6277|Drill Halls: A National Overview) the building is about 100 feet long by 40 feet wide, with a 75 ft long .22 firing range down one side and offices, toilets, mess etc at the back.  Sandwich would probably have had a population of 3000 or less at that time.

100_7409.JPG

100_7404.JPG

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I noticed while rereading the book on the Mid Wales Railway a photo of the King's visit to open the Elan Valley reservoirs. The reason for mentioning it is that there is a photo of the line lined by members of the Shropshire Light Militia, supposedly standing at 15 ft intervals.  There may well be other photos of the event which show them more clearly, but it also strikes me that other volunteer regiments would have taken part in similar events in other parts of the country.

Jonathan

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As you know, I am deplorably old school in my methods and illiterate where computer graphics programs are concerned. 

 

So, my approach to working out a livery for the West Norfolk's locomotives is to do it by hand .... 

WNR Sample loco Livery.JPG

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With respect, my captain, that livery is a bit fiddly. The Victorians did come up with some brilliant combinations for lining out, and you have when you paint it out large size on a flat piece of paper. However if you try to do all those differing lines on  a 4mm loco., you will go DOO - ALLY. Either try for a contrasting panel and wide edging separated by a single line colour, or just two colour lining out.

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41 minutes ago, Northroader said:

With respect, my captain, that livery is a bit fiddly. The Victorians did come up with some brilliant combinations for lining out, and you have when you paint it out large size on a flat piece of paper. However if you try to do all those differing lines on  a 4mm loco., you will go DOO - ALLY. Either try for a contrasting panel and wide edging separated by a single line colour, or just two colour lining out.

 

Yes, that was the point!

 

I wanted an intricate and ornate Victorian livery that the WNR has as yet failed to update or simplify.  It should fit with small lettered wagons, fully lined coaches, red brake ends etc.  

 

Turning that wish into reality is another matter and I may fail, but it's what I want for the line, so I am going to try. 

 

It has always been my intention to commission transfers when the time came, so it is the limits and difficulties of that medium with which I shall have to wrestle.  

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A while ago, I experimented with producing an ornate fictional livery (D&SJR) after the manner of NBR or similar liveries - green body colour, lining, deep border in a darker shade of green. It wasn't a great success because at that time I didn't understand that I needed to be working on a high gloss surface. Anyway, my method was to rough in the darker border, draw a yellow line up against the body colour, a red line up against the border, then a black line down the middle overlaying the two coloured lines. With a 0.5 mm Rotring pen for the black line, I could end up with about 0.3 mm yellow and red lines either side. I was moderately happy with the result but the matt surface was clearly the limitation; I stripped it back and haven't got round to trying again. The Posca paint pens are making me think.

 

As to the proposed WNR livery, I think lining outside the dark green border panel wouldn't be mainstream. The inner cream line is reasonable, though...

Edited by Compound2632
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Looking outside the darker panel would have hints of the outer lining on SE&CR Wainwright livery - the three-colour main lining, then the wide green border, then the fine red lining around the issue of the outermost black edging. Even then, this lining of James' is more complex than that! Shades of the two Messieurs Worsdell too, although perhaps that's just the colour choices...

 

If you do end up with this livery, James, it will certainly be impressive!

Edited by Skinnylinny
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1 minute ago, Skinnylinny said:

Looking outside the darker panel would have hints of the outer lining on SE&CR Wainwright livery - the three-colour main lining, then the wide green band, then the fine red lining around the black edging. Even then, this lining of James' is more complex than that! Shades of the two Messieurs Worsdell too, although perhaps that's just the colour choices...

 

If you do end up with this livery, James, it will certainly be impressive!

 

Thanks, Linny.

 

Greens are probably the way to go when your neighbours wear ultramarine blue or golden gorse.  The occasional visitor might wear green, it's true, but that's all right because his lining is white and black and his frames are chocolate. Besides which, the occasional visitor is as likely to be crimson. 

 

It's all a crib, of course. The idea of a darker/contrasting border is found in other liveries, such as LB&SC, most obviously IEG, but also umber.  The light and dark green combination was found on GN and NE.  I particularly like the "Brunswick" and "Saxony" green combination in late Fletcher livery, which also has some complex lining.

 

What is not shown in the sketch is that the frames are to be a dark red or claret, lined ochre/yellow and black.  More NE influence.

 

The lining is elaborate, but perhaps not excessively so.  Incurves are a must for me because they simply look better IMHO, as well as more old fashioned, than convex corners. There are more elaborate way to do this, e.g. IEG, but there's such a thing as too much and I am already pushing my luck with this one.  

 

The outer black/red border, framing the darker green is quite prototypical.  It would be seen, e.g. along the edge of a side tank or framing a cab front sheet.

 

I also love a distance line.  Nothing says "Victorian lining scheme" like a distance line.  Direct inspiration comes from a very charismatic little Black Hawthorn at the Tanfield. 

 

My own critical assessment is that it might have been best to have either a dark green border or a distance line but, loving both features and being unable to decide between them, I chose both, which risks overkill, though I note Fletcher decided to have both too!. 

 

That is mainly why I drew up the sketch.  Having done so, I do not think the scheme overloaded the senses as much as I'd feared, so I might go with it and see how it turns out.  

 

Whether it works or not is another matter, but there is nothing unprecedented in the style of the scheme.

 

Some pictures of liveries that have gone into the mix: 

Black Hawthorn & Co 0-4-0ST, 'Wellington', of 1873, at Tanfield in 1989, 01.jpg

DSC_-_Copy.JPG

DSCN3989.JPG

DSCN3978.JPG

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Lining is an odd thing. I've just spent the last 3 hours (between trains) attempting to line a LMS (Ex HR) 0-6-4T. I've just put the black edging on one side, and will do the other side tomorrow, then the ends of the bunker and tanks and then it will have to harden before the straw goes on.

Now the first LMS crimson is a very attractive livery which looks quite complicated until you break it down. Which leads me to ask the question: do you really need your little railway to have a very heavily lined livery?

Yes certainly it will require lining, but maybe you can achieve this by having the edges of the panel black, a wide dark green band with the inside edged straw on red. Keep the corners square and you will be able to put it all on with a bow pen (Today has been the first time I've bow penned on an item of stock, and I surprised myself that it isn't as hard as you think! Getting a decent bow-compass helps as you can then follow the straight edges on the vehicle as you go. The hardest part I found was going slowly enough so that the paint flows out of the bow properly (its much slower that I though it would be!)

I agree it works much better on a gloss surface, so make sure you gloss all your stock!

 

Andy G

 

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I am a little worried about your ambitions. i am not sure what line thicknesses you are thinking of, but some of the prototype lining I have come across has been an eighth of an inch wide, which at 4 mm/ft comes out as about 1/600 inch or 1/24 mm. That it very narrow, probably too narrow actually to see. Even the thinner lines on, for example, the Stroudley goods livery were only 1/2 inch wide, or a sixth of a millimetre. And I suspect that when you reduce your sample down the thin lines will be between those sizes.

Jonathan

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The trick (well one of the tricks) is to overlay transfers in sequence, so for the red black red line on Edwardian's livery I would lay down a red, then overlay a black, then overlay a red, them overlay a green (the main livery colour) and paint green overlapping onto the final green line.  Then add a cream line and again overlay it with green and paint up and onto the green. The individual transfer lines can be over width, but by overlaying you narrow them to the required thickness. I would gloss varnish each transfer before adding the next. Obviously you need a paint to match the final green overlay (I cheated by making that black), and the cost of the transfers adds up, but you aren't using enormous lengths for tiny pre-grouping tank locos.

Edited by webbcompound
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There’s always the old trick of putting down overlapping layers, so that you only have to worry about one edge ata time.

for example, if putting yellow-black-yellow onto crimson lake, you start with a yellow line, making sure the border to the red is neat. Then the black, making sure that the black edge is neat over the yellow, repeat for yellow over black, then finally touch up the final yellow with some of the crimson lake.

Hasten to add that I haven’t done this myself, but a friend did it, and when a yellow edged black border needed touching up as some of the black had worn off the edges, I did do this a little bit (just the final black line over the yellow edge) and it does work.

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On 08/02/2019 at 11:55, Tom Burnham said:

We were in Sandwich yesterday and noticed the Drill Hall (no longer in military use) on the Quay.  Built in 1869 for the 2nd Cinque Ports Artillery Volunteers, it is attached to the medieval (but heavily restored) Fishergate next door.  According to Historic England (https://research.historicengland.org.uk/redirect.aspx?id=6277|Drill Halls: A National Overview) the building is about 100 feet long by 40 feet wide, with a 75 ft long .22 firing range down one side and offices, toilets, mess etc at the back.  Sandwich would probably have had a population of 3000 or less at that time.

100_7409.JPG

100_7404.JPG

 

This excellent find deserves comment.

 

The main volunteer forces were rifle volunteers and, in coastal district, artillery.  There was a boost to drill hall construction in the wake of the reforms of the 1880s, but there were plenty of first generation structure from the 1860s.  Castle Aching represents one and Sandwich is another.  I was not familiar with this hall, so I am very grateful that you posted your find.  What a great model it and the whole row of three structures would make on a model railway. 

 

Built 1869, Sandwich is very much from the first generation of drill halls built in the wake of the Volunteer Act of 1863. Interestingly it, too, is associated with a Mediaeval gateway.  It illustrates something of the variety of styles adopted from the first.   Norwich Chapel Hill Road was opened in 1866.  The Great Yarmouth hall, which we have discussed and which I am stealing for Achingham, dates from 1868.  For an example of a small hall from the first generation, Castlebergh Hall, Settle, 1864.

 

954287031_DrillHall-CastleberghHallSettle186401.jpg.3b2533ba6a5d563cb19113f52f660e51.jpg884263882_DrillHall-YorkRoadGreatYarmouth061868.jpg.7d1bc984d31b2c86dadd41531a64a8c6.jpg719594504_DrillHall-NorwichChapelFieldRoad01-Copy.jpg.593c4d77d73c841734fc312dd2a63396.jpg

 

It may be argued that something like the Sandwich hall is suitable, perhaps more suitable, for Castle Aching.  To this I would say that under the patronage of the Erstwhiles there could be no question of a utilitarian poor relation of the elaborate school building and West Norfolk station that had been built in the preceding decade, and the architect was allowed to succumb to temptation and take his cue from the surviving remnants of Mediaeval fortification at CA.  While CA needs to be just about believable, it does not need to be typical or workaday in all respects. 

 

Another facet of the drill hall that we have barely touched upon is their use as a community facility for all manner of events.  Effectively it gives Castle Aching a concert hall.  I have ambitions to stage G&S there and, of course, the Washbourne Orpheans have a standing invitation.

 

Indeed, the Chapel Hill Road hall hosted the National Fisheries Exhibition. For how many drill nights did the smell linger, I wonder?

626117025_DrillHall-NorwichChapelFieldRoad05.jpg.adfb7c1669d3ffa2d6307dc872627fa1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Another facet of the drill hall that we have barely touched upon is their use as a community facility for all manner of events.  Effectively it gives Castle Aching a concert hall.  I have ambitions to stage G&S there and, of course, the Washbourne Orpheans have a standing invitation.

 

At what date did amateur production of G&S take off? (Having in mind that we saw some time back that 1905 is just a whisker too early for outdoor pageants.)

 

Or do you have in mind a professional touring company? Theatrical special!

 

 

2095613455_DY9254TheatricalTrainatSpondonJunction.jpg.dee6901e7118fab9382b2cc1d4fb9387.jpg

 

NRM DY 9254, reproduced under the terms of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence.

 

EDIT: On second thoughts, any travelling thespians running to a bogie scenery truck would presumably need the facilities of a fully-equipped theatre.

 

For the record, the leading vehicle is a D431 46'10" 6 ton theatrical scenery truck, one of eight, built in two batches of four, in 1899 and 1904; the pantechnicon van is riding on a D408 16' carriage truck; then comes a one-off: 50' covered carriage truck No. 128, built in 1906 specifically for theatrical scenery, D405. This vehicle is unusual - possibly unique - for a Midland design in having toplight windows* - at first glance one might assume it to be a LNWR vehicle. 

 

This train points once again to the rapid pace of change in the early years of the 20th century, as the nation's wealth became more widely disseminated**. Whilst the railways had been catering for touring companies ever since Felix Mendelssohn chartered a L&B train to take London musicians to Birmingham for the premiere of Elijah in August 1846***, the productions touring the provincial cities were becoming more lavish - needing bigger scenery trucks! The Midland, serving more provincial towns and cities than any one other company, was well-placed to take advantage of this. A complete train would be hired out to a company for the touring season.

 

The passenger accommodation in the train above consists of three Bain 54' corridor carriages. Celebrities might run to something grander. Here's a rather splendid view of a 40' family carriage of 1879 (no diagram) at St Pancras, with actress:

 

2012651551_DY610MadamSarahBernhardt.jpg.00ba6aaf8c8a65e4f1463d6d6d17f501.jpg

 

NRM DY 610, reproduced under the terms of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence.

 

*Apart from the square-light stock - the toplights in that style always being above fixed or droplight windows, added to which there were no eves panels.

**Only to be dissipated in the disaster of 1914-18.

***To be exact, a train of the month-old LNWR.

 

Further edit: note the external communication cord running through the eyelets in the eves of the family carriage; this was being phased out from mid-1900 though it took a while; the railway companies having agreed on a common standard (the familiar internal chain, partially applying the vacuum or air brake) the manufacturers couldn't meet the sudden demand for the equipment [Lacy & Dow Midland Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986)].

 

 

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

At what date did amateur production of G&S take off? (Having in mind that we saw some time back that 1905 is just a whisker too early for outdoor pageants.)

 

Or do you have in mind a professional touring company? Theatrical special!

 

 

2095613455_DY9254TheatricalTrainatSpondonJunction.jpg.dee6901e7118fab9382b2cc1d4fb9387.jpg

 

NRM DY 9254, reproduced under the terms of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence.

 

EDIT: On second thoughts, any travelling thespians running to a bogie scenery truck would presumably need the facilities of a fully-equipped theatre.

 

For the record, the leading vehicle is a D431 46'10" 6 ton theatrical scenery truck, one of eight, built in two batches of four, in 1899 and 1904; the pantechnicon van is riding on a D408 16' carriage truck; then comes a one-off: 50' covered carriage truck No. 128, built in 1906 specifically for theatrical scenery, D405. This vehicle is unusual - possibly unique - for a Midland design in having toplight windows* - at first glance one might assume it to be a LNWR vehicle. 

 

This train points once again to the rapid pace of change in the early years of the 20th century, as the nation's wealth became more widely disseminated**. Whilst the railways had been catering for touring companies ever since Felix Mendelssohn chartered a L&B train to take London musicians to Birmingham for the premiere of Elijah in August 1846***, the productions touring the provincial cities were becoming more lavish - needing bigger scenery trucks! The Midland, serving more provincial towns and cities than any one other company, was well-placed to take advantage of this. A complete train would be hired out to a company for the touring season.

 

The passenger accommodation in the train above consists of three Bain 54' corridor carriages. Celebrities might run to something grander. Here's a rather splendid view of a 40' family carriage of 1879 (no diagram) at St Pancras, with actress:

 

2012651551_DY610MadamSarahBernhardt.jpg.00ba6aaf8c8a65e4f1463d6d6d17f501.jpg

 

NRM DY 610, reproduced under the terms of a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence.

 

*Apart from the square-light stock - the toplights in that style always being above fixed or droplight windows, added to which there were no eves panels.

**Only to be dissipated in the disaster of 1914-18.

***To be exact, a train of the month-old LNWR.

 

Further edit: note the external communication cord running through the eyelets in the eves of the family carriage; this was being phased out from mid-1900 though it took a while; the railway companies having agreed on a common standard (the familiar internal chain, partially applying the vacuum or air brake) the manufacturers couldn't meet the sudden demand for the equipment [Lacy & Dow Midland Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986)].

 

 

 

 

 

Very interesting Stephen, thanks.

 

Two thoughts.

 

First, amateur productions of G&S were licensed by the Savoy Opera from the 1880s. Good news for the Aching Euterpeans,  

 

Second, you are correct that a professional troupe would not include CA on a tour.  One might visit the fashionable resort of Birchoverham Next the Sea, however, and their train would reverse at CA.  I suspect this would liven up Sunday at CA station quite considerably.  

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Ah the thespians may not visit CA, but what about Barnum and Bailey and their circus train? They certainly visited King's Lynn on their tours, so CA would have been a possibility... And then you can make you their lovely American styled trains (or if you don't want to build all of them, just build the advance car, that preceded the show by a week or two to make arrangements and sell tickets).

 

Andy G

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9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Hard to justify a special train though.

You could probably get away with a first class ticket for self, a ticket for the assistant (the dog, as you wouldn't want to feed the performers yourself), and a large suitcase. 

Edited by Hroth
Euphony...
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