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3 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Had you thought of approaching POWsides for a transfer set of this? I would imagine adding transfers to a model would be easier than adding 3D detail over a printed side/ends.

It's a thought, but I'll see how it goes and what it looks like. I am not a finescale modeller by any means. I don't think that there is a ready-made MR 25ft CCT even in kit form, so it would mean scratch building the body and converting a chassis.

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1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

It's a thought, but I'll see how it goes and what it looks like. I am not a finescale modeller by any means. I don't think that there is a ready-made MR 25ft CCT even in kit form, so it would mean scratch building the body and converting a chassis.

is there a plan for these looks a easy laser job to do a body shell ?

 

Nick

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21 minutes ago, nick_bastable said:

is there a plan for these looks a easy laser job to do a body shell ?

 

Nick

I think that although it is described as being built at Highbridge, the design looks very close to the Midland Railway Diagram D407, shown in Peter Tatlow's Historic Carriage Drawings - volume 3. That is what I laid the lettering over.

Before everyone gets too carried away, I do not claim to have reproduced the lettering 100% accurately. I used Arial bold, but 'simplified' the text in Photoshop Elements and then squeezed or stretched the sections to fit the layout seen in the photo, which is at an angle. I also made a simplified version of the shading. If someone wants to put this livery into production I would suggest that they go back to the source photo and work up their own version. I am happy with mine for my purposes, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for pre-grouping layouts across the land having inaccurate models running on them.

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Midland CCTs came in two lengths - 20ft and 25ft - and two heights - 13'3" high for the less numerous early builds and 12'8" high to clear the Met's loading gauge for the more numerous later vehicles, including D407, the ten of which were the last built, in 1901. Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2, record of a pair of 25ft examples, built in 1895, that they were to be lettered with the name of the Gloucester Wagon Co., an agreement having been reached that the Gloucester Co. would give the Midland all the road vehicle traffic it could handle, while the Midland reserved the right to use the CCTs for other traffic when not required for Gloucester traffic. 

 

The Lot Book also gives Lot 683 of Oct 1907, two 25ft CCTs (for Wolseley Co.). The drawing numbers for these are the same as for the earlier D407 CCTs. 

 

In Russ Garner's S&DJR Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers, the length of the Fuller CCT is given as 27ft and the build date 1908.

 

Here it is, at Bath I think? in August 1909:

 

2044821725_DY9127SAFullersVan.jpg.9571be6e6912161f707d1a5e5611164c.jpg

 

DY9127, reproduced under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence from the NRM.

Edited by Compound2632
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30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland CCTs came in two lengths - 20ft and 25ft - and two heights - 13'3" high for the less numerous early builds and 12'8" high to clear the Met's loading gauge for the more numerous later vehicles, including D407, the ten of which were the last built, in 1901. Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2, record of a pair of 25ft examples, built in 1895, that they were to be lettered with the name of the Gloucester Wagon Co., an agreement having been reached that the Gloucester Co. would give the Midland all the road vehicle traffic it could handle, while the Midland reserved the right to use the CCTs for other traffic when not required for Gloucester traffic. 

 

The Lot Book also gives Lot 683 of Oct 1907, two 25ft CCTs (for Wolseley Co.). The drawing numbers for these are the same as for the earlier D407 CCTs. 

 

In Russ Garner's S&DJR Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers, the length of the Fuller CCT is given as 27ft and the build date 1908.

 

Here it is, at Bath I think? in August 1909:

 

2044821725_DY9127SAFullersVan.jpg.9571be6e6912161f707d1a5e5611164c.jpg

 

DY9127, reproduced under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike licence from the NRM.

It's a cropped version of that photo appears in PO Wagons of Somerset. Now you have the evidence, photographic and dimensional, you can decide whether a slightly stretched version of my one will do, or whether to start from scratch!

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17 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

It's a cropped version of that photo appears in PO Wagons of Somerset. Now you have the evidence, photographic and dimensional, you can decide whether a slightly stretched version of my one will do, or whether to start from scratch!

not really my area so I have neither books just looked a suitable candidate to produce a shell with transfer overlays

 

Nick

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That van photo is an excellent illustration of something that the ‘old master’ makers of printed model of wagons, paper or tin, knew well: that planking is defined more by the highlight of reflection from the edge of the rebate in the plank, than by the darkness of any groove.

 

Some of them drew only the pale (reflection) line, but others drew two lines of very, very tiny dots, one black, one white, next to one another, which the eye then sees as a very good representation of the plank-edge, although it bears no resemblance when peered at from a mere nose-length.

 

They also routinely highlighted exterior ironwork, even down to bolt heads, using a fine white line to top and down be side.

Edited by Nearholmer
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For myself, I had been sceptical of that 27ft length quoted by Russ Garner until I started counting the vertical boards - there are 20 between corner post and doorframe on the Fuller van, 18 on a 25ft D403 vehicle and 14 on a 20ft D402 one, all from photos, though the diagrams agree. 

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52 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

That van photo is an excellent illustration of something that the ‘old master’ makers of printed model of wagons, paper or tin, knew well: that planking is defined more by the highlight of reflection from the edge of the rebate in the plank, than by the darkness of any groove.

 

Some of them drew only the pale (reflection) line, but others drew two lines of very, very tiny dots, one black, one white, next to one another, which the eye then sees as a very good representation of the plank-edge, although it bears no resemblance when peered at from a mere nose-length.

 

They also routinely highlighted exterior ironwork, even down to bolt heads, using a fine white line to top and down be side.

 

It is noteworthy, then, that while railway modellers have learnt to believe in weathering, I seldom see paint used to represent light and shade.  In recent years, the need to dry brush figures has been learnt from wargamers, but there is no reason not to apply this to vehicles or rolling stock.  For instance, I dry brush wagon underframes so that upper edges are shown to have caught the light. 

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If you have a photo of a vehicle showing it at an angle, it is well worth, if one knows the dimensions of the vehicle, taking the image into Photoshop or similar and manipulating it so that the vehicle side is "square" and to the known proportions. I have done this both when building models and when reskinning mineral wagons with real liveries from books for Microsoft Train Simulator. That way one can get a better idea of the letter spacing and proportions. I only usually did it with wagons with white lettering on black bodies as that is what most South wales wagons were, but the principle works for any design.

Jonathan

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8 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

If you have a photo of a vehicle showing it at an angle,

 

There is a square-on photo, DY 9125, reproduced in Garner, op. cit. but not downloadable from the Derby Registers MRSoc webpages.

 

Scaling off that, if length is 27 ft, wheelbase is 17 ft; for the 25ft Midland D403/D407 vehicles, wheelbase is 16ft. Comparing photos, it's clear the solebar of the Fuller CCT extend 6 in or so further beyond the spring shoe than on the Midland vehicles.

 

 

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Having used Photoshop to square up the body and give it the proportions of 27ft long by 7ft high, the height of the MR 25ft CCT body, the springs look far to long and the wheels are oval. OK there are still perspective distortions in there when looking at the chassis.

Fullers CCT photo 27ft x 7ft with chassis.jpg

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I spoke with John Langley at the club. The nominal minimum run is 100 wagons but the exact number depends on the number of reject etc.  The exact price depends on the base model but should be comparable with the normal price. Interestingly John's price for his geting the artwork sorted from a simple drawing or photo is one wagons FOC for himself. He places the order etc. but delivery and the invoice go the person requesting the wagons. He also commented that a van may be cheaper than an open.

 

Don

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Folks

 

Can I alert you to a very interesting thread?

 

This one https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142653-the-billy-bookcase-layouts/page/3/

 

It moves on to become a discussion of a seriously eccentric independent railway of WNR period, The Bristol Port Railway & Pier, which is definitely in the "you couldn't make it up" class.

 

Kevin

 

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On 12/03/2019 at 20:00, Edwardian said:

 

It is noteworthy, then, that while railway modellers have learnt to believe in weathering, I seldom see paint used to represent light and shade.  In recent years, the need to dry brush figures has been learnt from wargamers, but there is no reason not to apply this to vehicles or rolling stock.  For instance, I dry brush wagon underframes so that upper edges are shown to have caught the light. 

Wargamers, or rather wargames figure painters use quite a number of different painting techniques. I learnt mine from Bill Brewer, a leading light in the The South London Warlords group. He was a prize-winning professional figure painter, as well as running the Rye Stamp & Hobby Shop, in Rye Lane, Peckham. In the attached photo of a display group (rather than a wargames unit) that I painted, the white-metal men will have had a black matt enamel wash and then several layers of paint. Prominent features like noses and knuckles got lighter shades as highlights. He never used black for the centre of eyes as he said, out in the open pupils contract to almost nothing. He used to paint 9/10 brown and 1/10 blue! Some fabrics like canvas haversacks were dry brushed with lighter shades, as were hair and beards. Bill used to finish figures with a satin wood varnish. He said that that gave a consistent appearance. As wargames figures get handled a lot it also protected them. Matt varnish would look better on railway figures. Horses were painted with a matt white undercoat. Then oil paint was used for the horses' coats. As it dried this was carefully rubbed back to create the highlights. Some times several coats of oil paint were needed to get the right coverage. Details like eyes, manes, tails and hooves were dealt with much like the figures were. They again would get a coat of satin varnish. Bill was among the first to decorate the bases. He used mainly lino tiles as the base, sticking the figure on with UHU. His favorite filler was Artex, mixed with some brown water-based paint, into which he pushed small stones. He found that the grit one finds at roadsides was a good source and he used crushed brick as well. Then he would dry brush a pale grey or light cream over the filler and stones, pulling them all together. Finally the flock grass would be added and that would get dry-brushed with a light yellow or brown.

the Royal North British Dragoons  Scots Greys.jpg

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On 11/03/2019 at 18:25, Compound2632 said:

 

Depends. They have some 7 and 5 plank wagons that are abysmal antediluvian 10ft wheelbase monstrosities but also some 9ft wheelbase wagons that are moderately passable for 1887 RCH wagons - they even have Ellis type grease axleboxes and brakes one side only - both 7-plank and 5-plank varieties.

 

 

Are there any known instances of this outside of the Great Western - attempting to encourage larger capacity wagons - and the Scottish central belt coalfields?

 

In England, usual practice was to hire from one of the private wagon building firms - what was different about Scottish conditions that made thirling attractive to the railway companies?

The SECR had a number of mineral wagons that are thought to have been permanently allocated to Cory's coal traffic and operated like PO wagons. The 12-ton wagons bought in 1910 and 1911 may have been allocated this way. The traffic would possibly have been from the coal wharves at Erith rather than directly from collieries. I would welcome confirmation or disproof of this idea as I have only hints and suggestions in favour.

 

Thirlage seems to be a principle in Scottish law concerning milling of grain under feudal arrangements. Was there a different word for the arrangement in England?

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12 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Having used Photoshop to square up the body and give it the proportions of 27ft long by 7ft high, the height of the MR 25ft CCT body, the springs look far to long and the wheels are oval. OK there are still perspective distortions in there when looking at the chassis.

Fullers CCT photo 27ft x 7ft with chassis.jpg

The springs look plausible to me. MR stock did have very long springs. Have you checked the wheelbase?

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1 minute ago, Guy Rixon said:

The springs look plausible to me. MR stock did have very long springs. Have you checked the wheelbase?

See Compounds post about 7 above. The lack of post numbers is a bit of a nuisance. I am not really involved with turning this into a mass production effort. I shall continue with my printed body between a Parkside chassis and roof. However I doubt that the Fuller's CCT visited Highbridge Wharf, on which my very slowly developing model is based, very often if at all. Any posh cars for that area probably would have come off at the passenger station where there were end loading bays. The wharf did have a delivery of half a dozen or so steam rollers for the major local road contractor, W.W.Buncombe. I haven't seen the photo in any S&D books but there is one in a book of old local photos that I have.

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6 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

 

Thirlage seems to be a principle in Scottish law concerning milling of grain under feudal arrangements. Was there a different word for the arrangement in England?

 

Bondage?  :-)

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I've been fiddling around with the Fuller CCT.

 

Top: Midland D407 - 25ft long but to the Met loading gauge so only 6'6" at side; doors are 4'0" wide by 5'9" high. I would have done better to scan D403, 7'1" at side - the difference is noticeable in the height of the vertical boarding above the doorway though I'm undecided which diagram the Fuller van is really closer to in this respect.

 

Next, the same red outline but with the side height increased to scale 7'0", with the "stretched" photo scaled to first 25 ft then 27 ft length.

 

Bottom, a scan of the more nearly side-on view from Garner, op. cit. - still some distortion of the proportions; note that in all cases the height of the floor above rail level is distorted by the perspective. 

 

I've also drawn on rectangles representing the 16 ft wheelbase of D403 / D407 and the 7 ft-long carriage springs.

 

2109812795_Fullervan.jpg.275d0ce26cb2e5762b415bc2c3fe6dc2.jpg

 

Inconclusive...

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