Castle Aching

[Tom Burnham]

I can't remember this having been mentioned here before - https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/the-adventures-of-a-young-victorian-trainspotter/

[Hroth]

9 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

I can't remember this having been mentioned here before - https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/the-adventures-of-a-young-victorian-trainspotter/

 

Nice photos, including "Beatrice", a locomotive that has graced these pages in the past! (Though with another dodgy bloke in a Bowler Hat in the foreground...)

 

I should imagine that the interest in Wigmore Castle was that at the time of the photo it had recently returned to traffic having been rebuilt as a 4-2-2 from a 2-2-2 after disgracing itself by derailing in Box Tunnel after the leading axle broke. This successful rebuild resulted in the rebuilding of the other members of the 3001 class into the 3031 (Achilles) class and the building of 50 more locomotives in the revised style.  However, increasing train loads meant they had a limited operational lifespan, the first ones being withdrawn in 1908 and the last in 1916.

 

The 3031 class was probably the first* pre-grouping locomotive to be mass-produced in OO gauge, with the Triang "Lord of the Isles" in the early 60's.  Its strange to think that  50 years later, Hornby are going to do another reissue of the same bodyshell along with the clerestory carriages that accompanied it!

 

* Unless that was "Rocket", can't remember which was first!

[Nearholmer]

While looking for something else .........

 

Anyone remember the Norfolk Mineral Railway ......... well, this is real, and not far from, geographically or spiritually, all the old nonsense that I dreamed-up for the NMR .......http://www.castle-rising-history.co.uk/sandpit .html

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

While looking for something else .........

 

Anyone remember the Norfolk Mineral Railway ......... well, this is real, and not far from, geographically or spiritually, all the old nonsense that I dreamed-up for the NMR .......http://www.castle-rising-history.co.uk/sandpit .html

 

Looking at the 25" OS maps on the NLS site, It's there on the 1884 survey but lifted by 1904.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and you can follow the embankment course of it on the map, beyond the railway, to a sort of ghost harbour, left high and dry by the changing coastline.

 

Almost exactly as I imagined the situation of the lower part of the NMR and Wolfringham Harbour/Staithe.

 

It must have been a pretty rich sand pit to merit a properly engineered tramway to a harbour, and then an exchange facility with the railway once that arrived.

[Edwardian]

An excellent find, Kevin.

 

Well, we'll add sand to the various activities of the Norfolk Minerals Railway.

 

I think we had carstone, copralite, ironstine and sea-borne coal. Now sand too. 

[wagonman]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

It must have been a pretty rich sand pit to merit a properly engineered tramway to a harbour, and then an exchange facility with the railway once that arrived.

 

Assuming it is geologically related to the sand still being dug at Middleton Towers a few miles to the SE, then yes it was rich. The Middleton sands are carried away by train along the remaining section of the KL to Dereham via Swaffham line.

[Nearholmer]

Strangely, it seems not to be directly related, in that the Middleton Towers pits are what is called The Leziate Beds, whereas this one is from a deeper bed, and contains 'silver' as opposed to 'red' carrstone, but both were/are prized for glass-making. 

 

I had had a jolly good grice of MT when it still had an extensive 2ft gauge network, I think in about 1979.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Off to York ....

[RedGemAlchemist]

11 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Off to York ....

Have fun

[uax6]

It’s quite interesting that the sand pits at Castle Rising golf club are mentioned. Even as a child in the 80’s the golf club was known to me as the old sand pits. Even more interesting is that a certain LTC Rolt paid them a visit in late July 1930. He was an apprentice for Kerr Stuart’s at the time, and was involved with the first production diesel lorry* at the time. This was also the time when Kerr’s had produced their range of diesel locos. 

When he visited Boan’s Sandpit he had the prototype lorry, and it was loaded with 30hp diesel loco. It had been on exhibition in Scarborough. 

After unloading he spent a night at The Royal Oak (a pub I have never seen locally) where they ate with prongs (forks with two needle sharp points).

 

So it would appear that at some point in the early 30s a diesel loco plied its way along that trackway...

 

Andy g

 

* yes the first diesel lorry was manufactured by Kerr Stuart and co. Fitted with 60hp MacLaren-Benz four cylinder lump. It weighed in at 12.5t.

[Nearholmer]

That is fascinating, is it recounted in ‘landscape with machines’? I read that years ago, but haven’t remembered that detail. 

 

Anyone have the relevant IRS county handbook? Mine has mysteriously disappeared, which is a bit frustrating?

 

And, picking nits, the first diesel lorry in the UK might have been from KS, but not the very first. Dr Rudolf himself was involved with a lorry company in Switzerland in unsuccessful attempts to perfect an engine suitable for this function from 1907-1911, and one of the experimental engines, along with a detailed description of the work written by Diesel himself, is preserved in Germany. I thought that this work involved fitting the engine to a vehicle, but reading the detail given here (roll down to find relevant part), I now don't think so:  https://www.dieselmotoren-historik.com/dieselmotoren-historikforschung/

 

The first production lorries seem to have been in 1923/24, different engine solutions from Benz and MAN. Here is the MAN one, the first with a solid injection engine https://www.truck.man.eu/de/de/man-welt/man-in-deutschland/presse-und-medien/Meilenstein-der-Mobilitaet_-Vor-90-Jahren-fuhr-bei-MAN-der-erste-Lkw-mit-Diesel-Direkteinspritzung--125909.html This is the vehicle that really "proved the point" for small diesel engines, although, from a railway perspective, it is important to note that the Swedish Atlas Diesel engines, which at this date still had compressed-air injection, had been used in railcars and small locomotives before this, and I suspect (subject to further delving) that a similar German engine was tried in a an eight-wheel army feldbahn loco in the latter part of WW1.

 

EDITED after further reading, to correct for dodgy memory, to avoid leaving "false facts" in this thread. Its not really CA-relevant, but it seems right to make sure that its right.

 

Kevin

Edited April 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Skinnylinny]

Have fun at the York show. Is there any chance you could bring back some photos of the new Rails SE&CR covered wagon please?

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Have fun at the York show. Is there any chance you could bring back some photos of the new Rails SE&CR covered wagon please?

 

Sssssh, don't tell anyone ....

 

It's only a sample, in primer, rough handled all day by the Great and the Good, and, while some rather more official photography was in progress, I took the opportunity ....  

 

 

[uax6]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That is fascinating, is it recounted in ‘landscape with machines’? I read that years ago, but haven’t remembered that detail. 

 

Anyone have the relevant IRS county handbook? Mine has mysteriously disappeared, which is a bit frustrating?

 

And, picking nits, the first diesel lorry in the UK might have been from KS, but not the very first. Dr Rudolf himself was involved with a lorry company in Switzerland in unsuccessful attempts to perfect an engine suitable for this function from 1907-1911, and one of the experimental engines, along with a detailed description of the work written by Diesel himself, is preserved in Germany. I thought that this work involved fitting the engine to a vehicle, but reading the detail given here (roll down to find relevant part), I now don't think so:  https://www.dieselmotoren-historik.com/dieselmotoren-historikforschung/

 

The first production lorries seem to have been in 1923/24, different engine solutions from Benz and MAN. Here is the MAN one, the first with a solid injection engine https://www.truck.man.eu/de/de/man-welt/man-in-deutschland/presse-und-medien/Meilenstein-der-Mobilitaet_-Vor-90-Jahren-fuhr-bei-MAN-der-erste-Lkw-mit-Diesel-Direkteinspritzung--125909.html This is the vehicle that really "proved the point" for small diesel engines, although, from a railway perspective, it is important to note that the Swedish Atlas Diesel engines, which at this date still had compressed-air injection, had been used in railcars and small locomotives before this, and I suspect (subject to further delving) that a similar German engine was tried in a an eight-wheel army feldbahn loco in the latter part of WW1.

 

EDITED after further reading, to correct for dodgy memory, to avoid leaving "false facts" in this thread. Its not really CA-relevant, but it seems right to make sure that its right.

 

Kevin

 

Indeed it is recounted in Landscape with Machines. 

 

The whole first diesel lorry is strange subject, very little information is available on the Kerr Stuart lorry anywhere other than in the above book. Even then for photos you need to have the single volume editions and not the combined one (this volume is missing most of the images that appear in the individual volumes). In fact the is lorry is missed out in lots of histories, and again Rolt mentions some other pioneering attempts (Diesel engine in steam lorry chassis, not like the is lorry which was designed from day one to only have a Diesel engine), which again have slipped the history files.

 

The extra info that you have added is useful, but I wonder if the is lorry was the first to use a Diesel engine that used ‘solid injection’, which was the injection that eventually proved the norm. 

 

But her again gain we are diverting away from the real CA, it’s not as if the is lorry can make a cameo appearance, as it’s still too far into the future.

 

andy g

[Nearholmer]

Good old Grace's Guide has a photo https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1929v148-p614.jpg, and there are a few others showing the completed vehicle, as here http://www.britishcommercialvehiclemuseum.com/image-archives/product/kerr-stuartz00001/ (note that it says that they only built about five).

 

I fairly certain that the 1923/24 MAN was the first with sold injection, although I'm less sure about the details of the contemporary Benz lorry engine - I think initially it had air injection into a swirl chamber, but by 1929 may have progressed to solid injection. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Polluting the country air of West Norfolk with these futuristic diesel engines - dear me. Let's stick to good old-fashioned horse pollution - at least it's good for the roses, if not the noses.

[Nearholmer]

And, having checked, the KS 30hp diesel loco in question was 2ft gauge No.4467/1930, which was exhibited at a show of contractors' plant at Scarborough, then recorded as delivered to Joseph Boam sand pits, but at Middleton Towers, not Castle Rising. It was sold in part exchange for a 2.5 Ton Simplex 20hp loco.

 

And, until 1963, Middleton Towers has a Royale Oak Inn, close to the station and sand pits.

 

Did Boam work the pits at CR also? And, does Rolt say that the delivery was to CR, rather than MT?

 

(I will start a new thread about all this, or move to PM, if Edwardian deems it even more OT than usual)

Edited April 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

To the Show, DH leads the way!

 

 

Bachmann samples:

 

 

Meanwhile, over at Rails of Sheffield, from Sheffield, John Barber plus 'Muscle' pose with the new ex-SE&CR covered wagon ...

 

 

I said 'hello' to the very nice Worsdell Forever and Mrs Worsdell Forever and admired the incomparable Rosedale. Even in the relatively simple Wilson Worsdell livery, the Bouch Long-Boiler is magnificent.  A stunning model, with sound!

 

 

Also at York today, a fully realised freelance Edwardian railway, c.1910.

 

 

Somerset, I think, not Norfolk, and beautifully modelled to a standard beyond that which I could achieve, but notice how the builder has imagined what sort of equipment such a line would have - not dissimilar to the sorts of things we've discussed over the years for the WNR.

 

 

And that's a familiar coach livery .... 

 

 

I liked it so much, I'm going back tomorrow to see it again.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Slightly more on topic, but directly related, in that it involved sand from Boam's is this interesting piece https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/great-eastern-railway-wagons-part-6-loco-sand-trucks/

 

Surely, the WNR needs a loco sand truck.

[uax6]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

And, having checked, the KS 30hp diesel loco in question was 2ft gauge No.4467/1930, which was exhibited at a show of contractors' plant at Scarborough, then recorded as delivered to Joseph Boam sand pits, but at Middleton Towers, not Castle Rising. It was sold in part exchange for a 2.5 Ton Simplex 20hp loco.

 

Did Boam work the pits at CR also? And, does Rolt say that the delivery was to CR, rather than MT?

 

(I will start a new thread about all this, or move to PM, if Edwardian deems it even more OT than usual)

 

Sadly Rolt never mentions the location, other than east of Sandringham, which I have always taken to mean CR, rather than MT, which I would say would be south of Sandringham. I have no idea if Boam worked both.

 

The show of plant turned out to be ill placed for the intended visitors, as most failed to go to look, it being some way from the seafront, but some normal holiday goers turned up, so Rolt gave them train joiners, and the operator of the Ruston Buycerus drag line invite then into the bucket and swung them round.....

 

andy g

[Nearholmer]

Until 1963, Middleton Towers had a Royal Oak inn, near to the station and sand pits.

 

Methinks Mr Rolt had a faulty compass, but remembered the name of the pub correctly.

[Edwardian]

If you can't remember the name of a good pub', you are truly lost.

[ianathompson]

47 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Until 1963, Middleton Towers had a Royal Oak inn, near to the station and sand pits.

 

Never knew that!

 

For some years one of the nearby sand pits housed a football pitch which gave the atmosphere of playing in a proper stadium.

The only problem was that water tended to collect in it making it a bit boggy!

 

Ian T

[Skinnylinny]

Thanks for the photos, that SECR van looks exquisite, and the C class as well. I missed out on one of those when the first batch was released, but I'll definitely be wanting one now. The Nettlebridge Valley Railway also looks rather nice, and I don't think I'd come across it before!