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9 hours ago, DonB said:

Just caught up with the last few pages... I thought that Religion was a subject to be avoided on RMweb. ?

 

I tend to find that being a confirmed member of the CofE is about as good a way of avoiding Religion as one can find.

 

However, I do find the religiosity of Edwardian West Norfolk a legitimate and necessary field of enquiry. If it is to be prototypical, we must have the Church, but also a strong leavening of non-conformity. I suspect Primitive Methodists would be the most typical, and I still have to see if their chapel will fit the part of the village modelled.  At any rate, I suspect it needs to be at the opposite end of the village from the brewery.  

 

Sadly, one cannot fit everyone in - the Society of Friends is an obvious omission, for instance, and personally I feel that Unitarians have been historically under-represented on model railways - though perhaps Strict Baptists should find a place, for Archie's sake.  

 

As some may recall, I like Tin Tabernacles, so a "chapel row" with increasingly extreme varieties of the Strict & Earnest Brethren, might be fun, ending with the Memonites, whose small and rather decayed chapel is home to a congregation dwindled to 3 (or 4 if you include the Basset Hound, Wrath of Jehovah) .

 

Basset_hound_history.jpg.f7f2b7cd1e61331e5d242dd2a13ea6ce.jpg

 

The Old Religion is not to be neglected, either, but here I think a prototypical representation would be in the form of an old landed recusant family.

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2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I tend to find that being a confirmed member of the CofE is about as good a way of avoiding Religion as one can find.

 

However, I do find the religiosity of Edwardian West Norfolk a legitimate and necessary field of enquiry. If it is to be prototypical, we must have the Church, but also a strong leavening of non-conformity. I suspect Primitive Methodists would be the most typical, and I still have to see if their chapel will fit the part of the village modelled.  At any rate, I suspect it needs to be at the opposite end of the village from the brewery.  

 

Sadly, one cannot fit everyone in - the Society of Friends is an obvious omission, for instance, and personally I feel that Unitarians have been historically under-represented on model railways - though perhaps Strict Baptists should find a place, for Archie's sake.  

 

As some may recall, I like Tin Tabernacles, so a "chapel row" with increasingly extreme varieties of the Strict & Earnest Brethren, might be fun, ending with the Memonites, whose small and rather decayed chapel is home to a congregation dwindled to 3 (or 4 if you include the Basset Hound, Wrath of Jehovah) .

 

Basset_hound_history.jpg.f7f2b7cd1e61331e5d242dd2a13ea6ce.jpg

 

The Old Religion is not to be neglected, either, but here I think a prototypical representation would be in the form of an old landed recusant family.

 

Primitive Methodists were almost invariably exiled to a location well away from the population.

 

As to the "Old  Religion", its most senior member in England is the Duke of Norfolk.

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7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I suspect Primitive Methodists would be the most typical, and I still have to see if their chapel will fit the part of the village modelled. 

 

 

 

But as this is, in theory at least, a discussion concerning railway modelling I suggest that for authenticity's sake you will need to use fishbelly rail rather than bull head. The primitive Methodists were very strict about the old ways.   

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In North Norfolk at least –can't vouch for those strange types to be found in the west of the county – the Methodists were anything but Primitive and preferred their places of worship to be suitably substantial. I'll try to get a few photos...

 

There was – indeed still is – an active Quaker group in Wells...

 

I though the 'Old Religion' was what preceded Christianity, in which case the Duke of Norfolk will not be amused! But what do I know, I'm an Atheist.

 

 

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In the interests of historical verisimilitude, the important roles of Quakers and Methodists in industrial and railway enterprise in the first part of the 19th Century should be pointed out.

 

However, in the interests furthering regional and company rivalries, one should point out the monopolistic and monotheistic  tendencies of the LNWR and the rest of the Euston Conspiracy, in persecuting any companies who attempted to deviate from the worship of the Great God Mammon. Who else would kidnap, incarcerate, and isolate locomotives of a rival faith?

 

(Rival in the sense that they might be attempting to earn money for themselves.) 

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I have a fondness for modelling tin tabernacles as well, probably driven by Iain Rice's promotion of them on his layout plans. If Rice likes them they probably are worth modelling. Witts End will have a tin chapel and the village pub will be the aforementioned verdant male pagan fertility spirit so that'll make for an interesting community.

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1 hour ago, drmditch said:

In the interests of historical verisimilitude, the important roles of Quakers and Methodists in industrial and railway enterprise in the first part of the 19th Century should be pointed out.

 

However, in the interests furthering regional and company rivalries, one should point out the monopolistic and monotheistic  tendencies of the LNWR and the rest of the Euston Conspiracy, in persecuting any companies who attempted to deviate from the worship of the Great God Mammon. Who else would kidnap, incarcerate, and isolate locomotives of a rival faith?

 

(Rival in the sense that they might be attempting to earn money for themselves.) 

 

Well, as you and many will know, up here Pease was the Quaker name to conjure with in mining and railway circles.

 

7578059_JosephPeasestatueDarlington.jpg.2ae41820d2c445f88203faa794c402c2.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Dave John said:

Hmm, interesting pic Jim. 

 

No end doors, cupboard doors on the sides. Greaseboxes in the CR syle. Note that the horse shunting loops are bolted to the crownplates in CR fashion, but it seems to have webbed buffers with 4 rather than the CRs 3 bolts . I also note spoked rather than split spoke wheels. Single sided Morton brake. 

 

So heres a first stab, built Hurst Nelson , registered with the CR 1903. 381932064_HCpowagon1.png.c4e68190d6f7f9192802a01ab2f9b226.png

 

Ok, The wheels are split spoke , but the body style and doors are close. 

 

I'll dig deeper ...... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is a pretty close match.

 

I suppose I should replace the wheels - all the kits I build tend to have Alan Gibson split-spoke wheels as standard. 

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3 hours ago, wagonman said:

There was – indeed still is – an active Quaker group in Wells...

 To the best of my recollection the King's Lynn Quakers meet in wait for it....

 

.... a decommissioned pub!

Ian T

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well, as you and many will know, up here Pease was the Quaker name to conjure with in mining and railway circles.

 

 

 

Which reminds me of the street theatre performance "Chuffing Locomotion" wot I wrote, whose backdrop was a not quite  life sized roll-along Locomotion with wooden wheels. According to the chorus concerning Mr Edward Pease "He brought 'railway to Stockton which, is why we're all so chuffing rich" which sentiment was received with great delight by the Stocktonians.

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I suspect Primitive Methodists would be the most typical, and I still have to see if their chapel will fit the part of the village modelled.  At any rate, I suspect it needs to be at the opposite end of the village from the brewery.  

 

Not necessarily, in our little sleepy little Wiltshire village the methodist chapel was next door to the maltings and diagonally across the lane from the  brewery.  (All now  converted to private residences).

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well, as you and many will know, up here Pease was the Quaker name to conjure with in mining and railway circles.

 

7578059_JosephPeasestatueDarlington.jpg.2ae41820d2c445f88203faa794c402c2.jpg

 

Lovely photo. It's reminded me that I must soon pay a visit to the Hair-Cutting Rooms...

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

As some may recall, I like Tin Tabernacles, so a "chapel row" with increasingly extreme varieties of the Strict & Earnest Brethren, might be fun, ending with the Memonites, whose small and rather decayed chapel is home to a congregation dwindled to 3 (or 4 if you include the Basset Hound, Wrath of Jehovah) .

 

We have a small ‘tin tabernacle’ in Lairg, Edwardian. It was built by the United Free Church early 1900s. This group was one of two which had broken away from the established Church of Scotland, later reunited with the C of S in 1929. The building was then used as a church hall until it was sold to the Freemasons in 1939. During WW2 it was used as a mosque by the Royal Indian Army Service Corps. It was quite an experience in a small Highland village to hear the soldiers being called to prayer. Local children enjoyed tasting chapatis and turban cloths were often seen drying along the fences by a small burn which runs through the village.

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8 hours ago, drmditch said:

In the interests of historical verisimilitude, the important roles of Quakers and Methodists in industrial and railway enterprise in the first part of the 19th Century should be pointed out.

 

However, in the interests furthering regional and company rivalries, one should point out the monopolistic and monotheistic  tendencies of the LNWR and the rest of the Euston Conspiracy, in persecuting any companies who attempted to deviate from the worship of the Great God Mammon. Who else would kidnap, incarcerate, and isolate locomotives of a rival faith?

 

(Rival in the sense that they might be attempting to earn money for themselves.) 

 

I think I've mentioned before the observation that, at least in High Victorian days, the Directors of the LNWR were Anglican and Tory, whereas those of the Midland were Nonconformist and Liberal.

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At the first Guildex after I took up editorship of the Gauge 0 guild two members in particular came up to me and expressed satisfaction at my efforts both making derogatory remarks about the views of the other. One had a coarse scale background the other was definitely finscale. Fortunately each had found articles of interest to them. It is just a pity that they could not appreciate the efforts of those with differing views. One policy I adopted was to use my authority as editor to remove any undue remarks, sneaky asides etc used to have a dig at others. In the four years I was editor no one ever complained to me that I had removed such snotty remarks. The truth is that while writing nthe article it may seem a light hearted dig at others and possibly a little humerous, in print it will read much more like a damming castigation with the sort of delivery one would expect from the late Ian Paisley ( other powerful preachers are available from various religeous sects!).

 

Don

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1 hour ago, Donw said:

At the first Guildex after I took up editorship of the Gauge 0 guild two members in particular came up to me and expressed satisfaction at my efforts both making derogatory remarks about the views of the other. One had a coarse scale background the other was definitely finscale. Fortunately each had found articles of interest to them. It is just a pity that they could not appreciate the efforts of those with differing views. One policy I adopted was to use my authority as editor to remove any undue remarks, sneaky asides etc used to have a dig at others. In the four years I was editor no one ever complained to me that I had removed such snotty remarks. The truth is that while writing nthe article it may seem a light hearted dig at others and possibly a little humerous, in print it will read much more like a damming castigation with the sort of delivery one would expect from the late Ian Paisley ( other powerful preachers are available from various religeous sects!).

 

Don

 

Interesting Don. In the eight years I have been editing the Scale7 Newsletter I've never once had to blue-pencil snotty remarks about the efforts of other members. Perhaps that's because we're all trying to sing from the same hymn sheet (just to prolong the religious metaphor).

 

 

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3 hours ago, drmditch said:

Re: Above discussions on religion and religiosity

What are the views of the WNR Directors on the running of Sunday trains?

 

Hmm, a valid and interesting question.

 

I suspect the answer for, say, 1858, would not be the same as that in 1905 as attitudes had no doubt relaxed somewhat during the intervening years and in the face of the reality of Sunday travel.

 

I will have to try to recall my Trollope, but I suspect it is the Evangelical wing of the Church that would have been most set against Sunday trains during the mid-Victorian period.

 

The real world question is of what hue was the diocese of Norwich at any given time?

 

Well I could be wrong, but I doubt that the Hon. John Pelham DD, third son of the Earl of Chichester and a product of Westminster School and Christ Church Oxford, Bishop of Norwich 1857-1893, was of Bishop Proudie's Evangelical stamp. This is the gentleman who would have been on hand to express the Church's views on the subject of Sunday trains in West Norfolk. 

 

1789377795_BishopofNorwichJohnPelham.jpg.5599ee9184376fbf2b9b1c6297bf5f19.jpg

 

His successor, John Sheepshanks, Bishop of Norwich 1893-1909, seems to offer a contrast. A Cambridge man, that hotbed of the Reformation, Sheepshanks was the son of a Coventry clergyman, and educated at Coventry Grammar.  He was born in Belgravia, however, so the family seems well-to-do, if not aristocratic. He was a missionary in British Columbia. On his installation in Norwich, he was noted for his reforms, introducing Suffragans to better serve a diocese of 900 parishes, for pastoral work and for supporting widening the extension of suffrage to agricultural workers.  All this, together with his austere living arrangements may make a surprise that he was a noted High Churchman.   

 

2118496651_BishopofNorwichJohnSheepshanks.jpg.160891d8462e6edee81cc6641c20e3d4.jpg

 

The diocese of Norwich had suffragan sees of Ipswich and of Thetford, which were created by the Suffragan Bishops Act 1534 but in abeyance after one incumbent until Thetford was next filled in 1894 and Ipswich in 1899. The diocese lost Ipswich and a new second suffragan see – of Lynn – was therefore founded in 1963. 

 

There is then the question of archdeaconries and deaneries.

 

The archdeaconry of Norfolk was created circa 1100. with the archdeaconry of Lynn created from those of Norwich and of Norfolk on 28 August 1894. The first two Archdeacons of Lynn (1894-1906) were the Suffragan Bishops of Thetford. 

 

215521206_BishopofTheford(1903)JohnBowers(in1916).jpg.17868f0fe8bd01f7c2d8c91ae0761141.jpg1242477091_BishopofThetford(1894)ArthurLloyd.jpg.3e94f187cac67de82e042b0eaa614023.jpg

 

Lynn currently covers a number of rural deaneries; Breckland, Burnham & Walsingham, Dereham in Mitford, Heacham & Rising, Holt, Ingham & Sparham, Lynn, and Repps.  Very mucht the areas into which fictitious West Norfolk is woven. 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, drmditch said:

What are the views of the WNR Directors on the running of Sunday trains?

Yes, no doubt there would be some Sunday trains by then (not perhaps on the more rural offshoots), but I imagine they would be as slow and inconvenient as possible, involving waits of several hours for connections at obscure country  stations.  See, for example, G K Chesterton's essay "A cab ride across country" in which he describes the desperate measures to which he has to resort in order to get from Battersea to a village in Hertfordshire (Hertfordshire!) to give a lecture on a Sunday.

 

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The thin end of the wedge for running a Sunday service, certainly for Scotland, being a more religious place, was the need for a mail train, if nothing else. The Tay Bridge disaster was a Sunday night job with the train from the South. As Norfolk is East Coast perhaps commercial needs were more relaxed than the Western side.

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/2069/1/EN2069-the-battle-of-strome-pier-1-of.htm

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The diocese lost Ipswich and a new second suffragan see – of Lynn – was therefore founded in 1963. 

 

I am impressed by your ecclesiastical knowledge!

 

Having sung in what is now the Minster choir (it previously styled itself as a Priory) for thirty odd years I did not realise the history of the suffragen sees.

 

Ian T

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12 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

I am impressed by your ecclesiastical knowledge!

 

Having sung in what is now the Minster choir (it previously styled itself as a Priory) for thirty odd years I did not realise the history of the suffragen sees.

 

Ian T

And I'm officially totally lost now. 

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7 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

Interesting Don. In the eight years I have been editing the Scale7 Newsletter I've never once had to blue-pencil snotty remarks about the efforts of other members. Perhaps that's because we're all trying to sing from the same hymn sheet (just to prolong the religious metaphor).

 

 

 

The remarks were not about the quality of the work they  were about the choices of gauge and standards. The coarse scale enthusiast were as likely to mock scale 7 as fussy than the scale 7 enthusiast was to sneer at coarse scale. You of course would not see that in a scale 7 journal. Did you get any mocking other railways?

Don

 

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"Tarmacadamians"

Surely they came to a sticky end one hot summer's day.

On Nantcwmdu there will be two chapels, well apart on the layout, one singing in English and the other in Welsh. But of course even though in theory of the same faith they do not speak to each other, and that is not a matter of language.

And thank you for that PO wagon photo. It must have been a long way from home though if it arrived in East Anglia in Edwardian times. During the War to end all Wars such a things might have happened.

Certainly central north Norfolk would have been high church, as I have pointed out, because of the connection with Our Lady of Walsingham. However, how that would have affected the provision of Sunday trains I am not sure. Examination of a suitable issue of Bradshaw might be worthwhile. Unfortunately both my reprints are post First World War.

And while editing the HMRS newsletter I do not remember any derogatory remarks about other faiths, such as American or Andipodean railways. Naturally, in the WRRC publications anything rude about the English would be fair game - though I cannot remember anything. One is far more likely to be rude about the line in the neighbouring valley; after all the companies themselves were often at war in the courts or in Parliament.

Jonathan

That's what happens when I go to England for the day.

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