Castle Aching

[sem34090]

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Which only goes to show .... it would never have happened on the Great Western

 

Glad you recovered it.

Was it a Craven Pannier?

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, Hair_Dave said:

I stumbled across this and thought of you James, part way through you see Derwent in steam

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-official-film-of-the-railway-centenary-1925-online

 

Oh, I forgot to say, apropos dock locos, at 12.15 into this filum, an unskirted G15 (or whatever the LNER had started calling them) speeds (yes, speeds) by with frantic peeling of its bell.

 

Going like the clappers, one might say.

 

2 hours ago, Donw said:

In a lot of cases the land probably belonged to the Dock or Railway company but was not fenced off to prevent public access. Wells Next the Sea might be a case in point Bristol Docks  may be another. Proper Tramway's where the railway ran alonside a public highway are much rarer.

 

Don

 

Which fact has given me a bit of a problem, as there is not a wide choice of prototypes, especially for the period of the Bishop Lynn Tramway's inception in the mid-1880s.

 

The GER contribution is straightforward.  For the WNR's, I've had to dig a little deeper.  I had pencilled in the Bideford, Appledore & Westward Ho! locos, but they were of rather too modern construction. I have now lighted upon An Alternative with which I am Satisfied.

 

More on that to follow shortly ... 

 

 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Oh, I forgot to say, apropos dock locos, at 12.15 into this filum, an unskirted G15 (or whatever the LNER had started calling them) speeds (yes, speeds) by with frantic peeling of its bell.

 

Probably terrified by the Garret creeping up behind it!

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I have now lighted upon An Alternative

 

Worrying Capitalisation there...

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

3 hours ago, Donw said:

In a lot of cases the land probably belonged to the Dock or Railway company but was not fenced off to prevent public access.

 

In the case of the MDHB, parts ran outside the Dock Estate underneath the LOR, which skirted the dock walls most of the way from Dingle to Seaforth.  This was definitely on the public side of things and the rails were embedded in a setted surface.  It probably was done to link docks where warehouses and moorings made it difficult to link them within the dock estate. The LOR strangely became an Underground affair after crossing Brunswick Goods Yard on a fairly large girder bridge, vanishing into the cliff through a rather fine portal to reach its terminus.

 

Liverpool Echo, apparently.

 

 

[Donw]

Thanks for the info on Wells. I am never sure with Docksides whether the bit between the warehouses and the water is privately owned but open for access to the boats or is publicly owned like the highway. If if was shunted with Horses that  would solve a lot of problems but present another. You would want to tread in that while enjoying a seaside stroll.

I have in mind building a tram for the garden railway. I have the power unit but haven't decided on the boiler and fire. I might need to be a bit careful of a Toby type one all that wood and a souce of flame

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

Annie - indeed. I almost hugged the chap, but his beard put me off. I did manage to buy him a pint or three, courtesy of a mail order beer delivery service, though.

[Regularity]

52 minutes ago, Donw said:

You would want to tread in that while enjoying a seaside stroll.

The curse of autocorrect. Personally speaking I wouldn’t want to step in a pile of horse poo whilst enjoying a seaside stroll...

 

(As an aside, a couple of friends went for stroll along the beach after a particularly heavy “session” overnight for one of them. As they meandered along, with trousers rolled up in traditional English style, the one with the, ahem, headache managed to discover a recently cut channel in the sands/shingle, and was suddenly 4’ shorter than his sober companion... Although they were both sober by then: 4’ of the North Sea in April is apparently a pretty effective way to sober up.)

[Nearholmer]

Interesting things can happen when you’re a tad “headachy”.

 

One of my pals walked straight into an excavation for a gas main, about six feet deep, totally oblivious to the safety barriers, then scrambled up the opposite side, apparently unscathed, and carried on his unsteady way. Another spent an hour chatting-up an attractive young woman on the top deck of a bus, only trouble being that this was after a “drinks reception” in a well-known transport museum, and the young woman was a “waxworks”.

 

 

 

 

[Northroader]

Another ideal location for what you’re after, although pictures of it are very rare, I’m remembering I’ve seen a model of this, but where???

http://www.miac.org.uk/butts.html

Edited August 22, 2019 by Northroader

[Donw]

40 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Another ideal location for what you’re after, although pictures of it are very rare, I’m remembering I’ve seen a model of this, but where???

http://www.miac.org.uk/butts.html

 

Perhpas you are thinking of John Webster's 0 gauge model of Diglis 'might have been'  together with Pershore and Breresford road they occupied two sheds in his garden with some outdoor linking track. I had the pleasure of visiting.  The photos were old fashioned film and are in a box somewhere. It did feature in the Modeller and there are some bits in the Gazette. Just checked some of my photos were in the Nov 2000 Gazette.

 

Don  

[sem34090]

The first thing that came to mind when I read 'Butts' was the flippin' great hole someone's gone and made in our (as in "The Mid Hants Railway's") Railway!

Interesting how, before they demolished that brickwork, the contractors scrubbed out the lower lettering but left the upper...

There is now a bridge there, for the record.

 

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Probably terrified by the Garret creeping up behind it!

 

 

Worrying Capitalisation there...

 

 

In the case of the MDHB, parts ran outside the Dock Estate underneath the LOR, which skirted the dock walls most of the way from Dingle to Seaforth.  This was definitely on the public side of things and the rails were embedded in a setted surface.  It probably was done to link docks where warehouses and moorings made it difficult to link them within the dock estate. The LOR strangely became an Underground affair after crossing Brunswick Goods Yard on a fairly large girder bridge, vanishing into the cliff through a rather fine portal to reach its terminus.

 

Liverpool Echo, apparently.

 

 

 

[Pacific231G]

10 hours ago, geoff_nicholls said:

and how much of it was loco hauled? My guess is much less than is modeled.

Great Yarmouth was a good example though, there are photos of 04s and Y10s hauled wagons along the road, which also implies Y6s and J70s.  The line to the Fish Quay ran parallel to the Council Tramway (3' 6" gauge) The former crossed the latter to enter the brewery, the trams crossed the std gauge to reach the station forecourt.

I remember seeing the Great Yarmouth tramway, though not any trains, during a Sea Scout expedition to the Borads in a couple of cabin cruisers. 

 

One I'd forgotten about was the Seafront Railway that ran along the esplanade in Dover to what is now the main ferry port.

https://doverhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/th-11-seafront-railway-c-1955-waterloo-crescent-no-31027-a-p-class-0-6-0-tank-engine.jpg

Not a skirt in sight, not on the P class 0-6-0 tank engines at any rate, but from all accounts this railway was a source of constant annoyance to the landladies of the very respectable seafront guest houses.

[nick_bastable]

17 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I remember seeing the Great Yarmouth tramway, though not any trains, during a Sea Scout expedition to the Borads in a couple of cabin cruisers. 

 

One I'd forgotten about was the Seafront Railway that ran along the esplanade in Dover to what is now the main ferry port.

https://doverhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/th-11-seafront-railway-c-1955-waterloo-crescent-no-31027-a-p-class-0-6-0-tank-engine.jpg

Not a skirt in sight, not on the P class 0-6-0 tank engines at any rate, but from all accounts this railway was a source of constant annoyance to the landladies of the very respectable seafront guest houses.

just to make it really interesting access was via a swing bridge

 

Nick

[Bill_J]

AFAIR from my reading, all train movements to/from and between the various Southampton docks were preceded by a flagman and thus at walking speed. Could be interesting to model...

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Bill_J said:

AFAIR from my reading, all train movements to/from and between the various Southampton docks were preceded by a flagman and thus at walking speed. Could be interesting to model...

A suitable figure, on a piece of wire long enough to position him at least 30 scale feet from the loco, clipped to the buffers.

 

Could be fun at express speed..... 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Bill_J said:

AFAIR from my reading, all train movements to/from and between the various Southampton docks were preceded by a flagman and thus at walking speed. Could be interesting to model...

 

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

A suitable figure, on a piece of wire long enough to position him at least 30 scale feet from the loco, clipped to the buffers.

 

Could be fun at express speed..... 

 

It did strike me that one option for bringing the GER harbour branch on scene was to conceive of it as a conventional fenced off railway (until actually within the confines of the docks), but to have a street crossing.

 

This could either have gates and a box wedged into the street - echoes of Burton on Trent - or, alternatively, a little hut, out of which pops Man with Red Flag!  Rather The Living Lineside, if folk remember that! 

[Hroth]

25 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Rather The Living Lineside, if folk remember that! 

 

Its getting to the point that "remembering" stuff like that pins you down to a rather specific age bracket....

 

Of course, it could be that you can't remember it

[phil_sutters]

My delightful A History of the British Steam Tram has in its final volume 9, Sharp Stewart's single driver monorail engine for the Lisbon Tramways. While I can't copy from the book, here is a link to an engraving of a trial held in Epping Forest of all places. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Experiencias_Larmanjat_Epping_-_GazetaCF_1225_1939.jpg  This could deal with the issue of driving a railway through narrow medieval streets. You only need a single rail in the middle, but I suppose one would need transporter wagons to get the standard gauge wagons to the harbour1

[Nearholmer]

While you are busy reinventing all the “action accessories” that Lionel devised in the 1930s, and licensed to Triang in the 1960s, can I commend another bit of harbour railway?

 

Hayle Wharves. These were the remnant of the pre-mainline Hayle Railway, and had lots of good features: a swing bridge over the pool, directly after a broad level crossing, directly after a ferociously steep down gradient; first radius curves; bits where it was impossible to tell where the highway ended and the parallel railway begun; etc. They remained in use until quite recently, and I remember being baffled when I first saw them from a train crossing the high viaduct through the town, because I couldn’t work out how trains got down there.

 

Picture stolen from the Cornwall Railway Society site, which has a long and interesting article about the line, but which needs more maps to be truly understandable.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

If you’ve got the tramway crossing the road, you are allowed to signal it properly instead of using a man with a red flag, because in those days motor car drivers were regarded as being intelligent, a proposition which has since proved faulty. (The other branch in the City of Worcester, the Vinegar Works lime)

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

It did strike me that one option for bringing the GER harbour branch on scene was to conceive of it as a conventional fenced off railway (until actually within the confines of the docks), but to have a street crossing.

 

This could either have gates and a box wedged into the street - echoes of Burton on Trent - or, alternatively, a little hut, out of which pops Man with Red Flag!  Rather The Living Lineside, if folk remember that! 

Oh yes! By "Dax", whoever he was (possibly P D Hancock, judging by the drawing style?).

Edited August 23, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

It did strike me that one option for bringing the GER harbour branch on scene was to conceive of it as a conventional fenced off railway (until actually within the confines of the docks), but to have a street crossing.

 

This could either have gates and a box wedged into the street - echoes of Burton on Trent - or, alternatively, a little hut, out of which pops Man with Red Flag!  Rather The Living Lineside, if folk remember that! 

There was a good example of this where the LSWR line from Friary to Sutton Harbour's North Quay in Plymouth crossed Sutton Road. Having descended from Friary goods yard it emerged from a tunnel under Exeter Street and, shortly after, crossed Sutton Road on a gated level crossing then swung to the right behind some warehouses to enter Sutton Harbour. I saw it quite often when I was at College in Plymouth between 1967-69 as our boat centre was at Coxside. It was definitely disused by then though the track may still  have been in place, the rails inset into Sutton Road at the crossing were certainly still there.

I don't remember seeing a signal box at the level crossing and that's confirmed by the Signal Record Society's list that shows just a ground frame for Sutton Road Crossing so the gates had probably been manually operated. It's always struck me as a good scenic vignette and I think there was something similar on the line in Bristol that connected Temple Meads with the Floating Harbour.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Pacific231G

[runs as required]

On 20/08/2019 at 12:45, Donw said:

I am thinking you need another outbuilding to house the Bishops Lynn/ Kings Lynn. With your skill at buildings it would be a real treat. 

Don

In the meantime I'd be quite happy with deliciously real looking mock-ups (a la James's posting above based on his postings higher up the page) of Bishop Lynn, coastal steamers, coffee pots, vertical boilers and all sorts for posting on CA for us to fantasise about.

 

Even if none of it ever gets modelled it is all still here in the fold in map.

dh

[Nearholmer]

Right, off at a bit of an angle, but pursuing these long-lasting remnants of the Hayle Railway, modus operandi that must, surely be used on the WNMR. I’ve never heard of this way of working an incline before, but it makes good use of the mass of the loco.

 

The Tresavean branch left the main line at Redruth Junction and headed up a steep rope worked incline before heading over top of Lanner Hill where it crossed the Redruth and Chasewater Railway on the level. However as the R & C was of 4'gauge and the Tresavean of standard gauge there was no rail interconnection.  The incline was double tracked throughout its length, haulage was by means of the train loco. The loco, having left its wagons at the foot of the line proceeded to the top on its own. At the top the loco was attached to the 'rope' and then proceeded back down the incline passing its own train midway. The line closed on 1 Jan 1936

[Donw]

16 minutes ago, runs as required said:

In the meantime I'd be quite happy with deliciously real looking mock-ups (a la James's posting above based on his postings higher up the page) of Bishop Lynn, coastal steamers, coffee pots, vertical boilers and all sorts for posting on CA for us to fantasise about.

 

Even if none of it ever gets modelled it is all still here in the fold in map.

dh

 

I am rather taken with Northroader's ability to conjure up something with a couple of pieces of track and rolling stock, plus a painting or photo as a backscene.

 

Don