Castle Aching

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

Yes and no. The Aberdares were not designed straight off the board as moguls, but were 0-6-0s which had grown to the point of needing an extra axle.

 

The Aberdares were preceded by the Kruger or 2602 class, which introduced the 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 wheel arrangements to the GWR starting in 1899.  Though nominally Dean locomotives, its pretty obvious that this was Churchward investigating things.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2602_Class

 

The Krugers were supremely ugly beasts! 

 

As for the Abadares, the Wikipedia article seems to suggest that they they were freight versions of the "Bulldog" 4-4-0s... They were also rather nicer looking than the Krugers!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2600_Class

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Hroth
Proofread before posting, proofread before posting.... Then proofread again!

[Allegheny1600]

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Available as a kit:

 

 

NRM DY 1134, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Note the all-American construction - bar frames, front footplate stays (puts me in mind of another variety of mogul...). Is the chimney an attempt at Johnsonification?

 

 

NRM DY 1139, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Good heavens!

That looks as though they were assembled between the station and the loco works - at Derby, that is. The Roundhouse looks clearly visible in the first pic, currently the location of a rather good annual model railway exhibition!

Cheers,

John.

 

PS I think this is my first post here, Howdy all - it's taken me ages to catch up!

[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

The Aberdares were preceded by the Kruger or 2602 class, which introduced the 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 wheel arrangements to the GWR starting in 1899.  Though nominally Dean locomotives, its pretty obvious that this was Churchward investigating things.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2602_Class

 

The Krugers were supremely ugly beasts! 

 

As for the Abadares, the Wikipedia article seems to suggest that they they were freight versions of the "Bulldog" 4-4-0s... They were also rather nicer looking than the Krugers!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2600_Class

 

 

 

Dont forget No. 36

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_No._36

 

p.s. Found a piccy:

Edited October 25, 2019 by Northroader

[Nearholmer]

I've always assumed that the name came to GB from the US, partly because of the order of events, and partly because the spelling would possibly have been 'Moghul' if direct from India to GB.

 

Anyway, the ones I like are the early US 3ft gauge ones. When the 'narrow gauge boom' happened in the US, locos were at their most 'cowboy film' in terms of looks, often wood-burners with huge spark arrestor chimneys, and always with a whopper headlamp, and a 'cowcatcher', and the 3ft gauge lines ordered small versions of the typical 4-4-0 for passenger work and 2-6-0 for freight. They then found that paying loads were too heavy for the locos on steep hills and tight bends (Martin!), and after a brief flirtation with Fairlies, settled on 2-8-0 for freight, with the 2-6-0 going to passenger, and the 4-4-0 to the flatlands or the scrapheap.

 

Dainty they were, truly dainty engines.

 

The man behind the boom, William Jackson "General" Palmer is worth reading about - he seems to have been a rare sort of thrusting railway pioneer, in that  that he also seems to have been personally brave, and a decent, honest, not-overly-self-agrandising, chap to boot!

Edited October 25, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

This sort of thing:

 

Ps they had a Fairlie,too.

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Northroader

[Edwardian]

36 minutes ago, Northroader said:

This sort of thing:

 

Ps they had a Fairlie,too.

 

 

That's what happens when you install a summer house and patio heaters on your double Fairlie

[Nearholmer]

Not only double-engines, but single fairies too, I think, although they somehow dodged the patent and called them ‘Mason Bogies’ IIRC.

[Annie]

6 hours ago, Donw said:

 

Ah Sanspareil do 7mm models and are sold through the CSP site http://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&path=66&product_id=248 . It might be enough to tempt you to 7mm until you note the price. My apologies for any confusion.

 

Don

At that price you'd need pockets of such a depth they would have an echo.

[Northroader]

There’s a bit on “Mason bogies” on good ole Wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason_Bogie

probably their best known usage was on the 3’ Denver, South Park (of Cartman, Kenny, Kyle, and Stan fame) & Pacific, here’s an action painting in the Rockies at Alpine Tunnel, two Masons and a Consolidation in sight:

[Regularity]

I know it’s from a Dominion, and they went more or less straight from pre-group to partial nationalisation, but I have a nice Canadian mogul from 1910 (class E-10a) on its way to me.
 

 

Having crossed the Atlantic in very little time, really, following a whole 36 hours from being dispatched to arriving at the export terminal, and a rapid dispatch from Heathrow ro Coventry (I know all this because the USPS online tracker is very informative) it is now stuck in Coventry. According to Parcelforce, it is still awaiting export!

 

S scale, DCC sound and lights, hand-built from a kit by its designer.

It will look nice on Lydham Heath, although it will have a problem with the platform faces!

[Compound2632]

Many, many years ago there was a magazine article on kit bashing a US plastic kit for a Baldwin mogul into one of the Midland Baldwins - "Casey Johnson" was the title. I think the difference in scale between American and British O meant that it turned out just about right.

[Hroth]

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

Dont forget No. 36

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_No._36

 

p.s. Found a piccy:

 

I must say that 36 sneaked under my radar!

However, you can see that the Krugers basically used 36s chassis design to mount Churchwards experimental firebox and boiler.

 

Also, there's a bit of Dean "standardisation" going on there, the firebox and bogie look as if they came off an Achilles, and the cab looks a bit Dean Goods!  Swindon probably also borrowed the tender off some poor loco undergoing a heavy overhaull in the works... 

 

Looks a lot better than Churchwards version!

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Hroth
Can't even get the NUMBER right now!

[robmcg]

Whatever happened to Johnson's purity of line?

[robmcg]

We in NZ tried double Fairlies but but by 1906 were building compound 4-cylinder 4-6-2s  or Pacifics, not a mile from where I was born in 1950.

 

 

My paternal grandfather was a top link driver until 1945 retirement and favoured these engines over 2-cylinder variants....

 

 

 

earlier in his railway career he drove U S style 4-6-0s..

 

 

We even tried Garratts by Beyer Peacock in the 1920s but settled on 4-8-4s from 1932-on...    

 

just for interest.

 

Now back to  the real world....     in Westminster I believe... 

 

 

[Hroth]

13 minutes ago, robmcg said:

Now back to  the real world....     in Westminster I believe... 

 

And we were doing so well, ignoring the Elephant in the Room (or was that a ditch???)

 

I came across another viewpoint on the border problem the other day too...

 

WARDROBE

https://xkcd.com/2218/

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Hroth
Proofread.... Ahforgetit (its a tendancy)

[RedGemAlchemist]

16 minutes ago, Hroth said:

And we were doing so well, ignoring the Elephant in the Room (or was that a ditch???)

If you guys don't mind I'd rather continue ignoring it. It's been going on too damn long and I'm sick of hearing about it. 

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

If you guys don't mind I'd rather continue ignoring it. It's been going on too damn long and I'm sick of hearing about it. 

Yes, well, let normal services be resumed!

[TurboSnail]

6 minutes ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

It's been going on too damn long and I'm sick of hearing about it. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, this could refer to one of two things:

1.  That 'debate' over Hatton's generic coaches, or
2.  My continued own-product-promotion over on my own thread... (sorry)

Is it time for a Castle Aching update? Or are we only allowed one every time we hit another hundred pages? (sorry Edwardian!)

[RedGemAlchemist]

1 minute ago, TurboSnail said:

•  That 'debate' over Hatton's generic coaches, or
•  My continued own-product-promotion over on my own thread... (sorry)

The first is a non-issue to me. The more small coaches on the market the better as far as I'm concerned.
The second is entirely your prerogative. Far be it from me to impose rules for your own thread, especially considering the apparent quality of the stuff you make.

[Nearholmer]

The Elephant got uncomfortably close to home today, coming to make an unannounced not-really-electioneering-honestly-guv photo opportunity visit to the school that my daughter attends. When she told me that her best friend had been on TV with him, I thought she was making it all up, but I'm afraid that it really happened!

 

[Metropolitan H]

Have I missed something? - Please remember that G Churchward was a very good engineer who looked at developments all across the world - in detail - before developing his set of locomotive designd based mainly on American practice. He also made sure that Swindon adopted the best optical measuring equipment available to ensure parts were made to the drawing and were truly interchangeable.

 

There is truth in the saying that Swindon stopped locos for overhaul if they fell to the standards that other works - Doncaster and Crewe included - achieved on first build and immediately post overhaul.

 

Churchward also learnt a lot about tthe use of long travel valve gear and good steam circuits from contemporary American practice. The change from Dean to Churchward really was a revolutionary step-change that resulted in very marked improvements in efficiency and performance - no wonder that most of the older loco types were done away with in the early 20th Century.

 

Rant over.

 

Regards

Chris H

[robmcg]

Indeed. Just as Gresley and Chapelon were friendly...  but this was years later of course an entirely un-Edwardian. 

[Metropolitan H]

11 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Adams must have based this on US practice, the similarities are too great.  Then there is the name. I had always understood that the term "mogul" had been coined in the US in relation to the wheel arrangement.

 

Your Wiki link includes the following:

 

It is likely that the locomotive class name derives from a locomotive named Mogul, built by Taunton Locomotive Manufacturing Company in 1866 for the Central Railroad of New Jersey. However, it has also been suggested that, in England, it derived from the engine of that name built by Neilson and Company for the Great Eastern Railway in 1879.

 

Well, no doubt both statements are true, but the point is that surely the GER adopted the US term, which was clearly coined by then! 

 

Looking at his Mogul, we might conclude that this was not Adam at his most elegant.  However, it is clearly still an Anglicised design. Yes, there is that horrible sand dome, but other oddities do not seem to be specifically American, like the rectangular centre splasher box (which I take it includes sandboxes) or the less than elegant cab, which was a native design seen on other GE locos.  

 

Otherwise we have familiar GE boiler fittings and a lower-than-American running plate with splashers. 

 

Here is, I think, 538, looking all the better for losing the hideous boiler-mounted sandbox ....

 

A not bad-looking, and certainly a rather British-looking, locomotive emerges ....

 

 

 

 

Let's not forget, though, that the GWR began by bucking the US-design trend by initially combing the wheel arrangement with outside framing.

 

Clearly we needed time to assimilate this alien wheel arrangement into our native forms; by the time we get the the Brighton's K of 1913, you'd never have thought that a Mogul could have been anything but British!

 

And don't forget that the first of the GNR H2 (LNER K1) "Ragtimer" 2-6-0s was introduced in 1912 - with the H3 (LNER K2) following in 1913.

 

But Churchward's 43xx 2-6-0 was introduced in 1911 - and they lasted well into the 1950s / 60s, some 88 (of the 342) 43xx class locos having been rebuilt into 4-6-0 "Grange" and "Manor" class locos.

 

 

[Buhar]

On 24/10/2019 at 22:27, brack said:

The highland railway might beg to differ on that (although it's fair to say that their designs might owe more to the design and drawing offices of the manufacturers than those at lochgorm).

Obviously, there was no design precedent for the Big Goods and the credit should go to Jones for that.  The builders were Sharp Stewart.  The Castles were built by Dubs and although 4 years after Jones' departure, the changes made by the younger Drummond were pretty minimal, so I think that's an HR pure loco too.  Later Castles were built by North British who had Sharp Stewart and Dubs in their fold by then.

 

The Rivers probably had a fairly substantial design contribution from Hawthorn Leslie, (which regrettably included some dodgy weights) as the subsequent 4-4-0s, Snaigow and Durn were a "design and build" by that firm to Smith's rough outline.  H&L also did the Superheated Goods and Clan class.

 

My take is that the first two 4-6-0s were HR designs, the three subsequent designs probably had more that can be attributed to the builders.

 

The Caledonian had very little success in adding an extra axle to their superb 4-4-0s, Cardean was good and the Oban line ones not bad, but the others, though magnificent in blue were a bit embarrassing.

 

Manson's 4-6-0s for the G&SWR were pretty good for their time and I don't think there is evidence for any outsourcing there as the design was put to the Board and then out to tender.  Sharps Stewart built the first lot and NBL the superheated version.

 

Alan

 

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The Elephant got uncomfortably close to home today, coming to make an unannounced not-really-electioneering-honestly-guv photo opportunity visit to the school that my daughter attends. When she told me that her best friend had been on TV with him, I thought she was making it all up, but I'm afraid that it really happened!

 

 

What has been seen cannot be unseen