Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Hroth said:

I'm surprised the reporter didn't throw in "cultural appropriation" too, a brickbat that intruded its ugly head yet again this week in connection with Halloween fancy dress...   (And you can't wear a sombrero unless you're Mexican!)

 

 

Heck, are cardigans out? I oughtn't be appropriating the dress of an ill-equipped mid 19th century trooper.

[Nearholmer]

It is strange that the ‘cultural appropriation’ movement comes out of the US, which has appropriated more culture than almost anyone, and merrily imposes it’s own “culture” on everyone else.

 

If it was called The Disneyfication of culture, it might make everything a lot plainer, because I don’t think anyone gets too upset by a bit of borrowing and mutual trade of culture, except possibly swivel-eyed xenophobia, who fear anything faintly foreign (except the bits that are so well assimilated that they mistake them for their own, while drinking tea in their pyjamas, and remembering last-night’s curry).

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I who fear anything faintly foreign (except the bits that are so well assimilated that they mistake them for their own, while drinking tea in their pyjamas, and remembering last-night’s curry).

 

Our multicultural society is the finest and most enduring fruit of Empire.

[Annie]

Celebrating Halloween has started to creep its insidious way into New Zealand and I don't like that at all.  It's not a part of our cultural tradition as it's just another nasty foreign influence spread from the US via the internet and social media.  Fortunately living in the rural countryside as I do I don't have to put up with it, but in cities like Auckland swarms of trick or treaters are becoming a problem.  People tell me, -'Oh it's just a bit of fun, it's nice seeing the kiddies dressing up', - but it's not as far as I'm concerned.

[sem34090]

Call me old fashioned (and you would be right) but I too despise Halloween. It really does seem to have become the epitome of abhorrent American 'culture'. I'm gradually going off Christmas as the biggest consumerfest of them all, though being a greedy and selfish sort I will accept the benefits of the season.

 

Also, is it wrong that I think it's fine to laugh at and take the rise out of all cultures, especially my own? Is that racist, because certainly lots of other people I know have branded me such.

[Edwardian]

Rugby dreams shattered. 

 

Thank goodness we have so much else to look forward to.

 

Miss T insisted on pumpkins. Sums up my mood really...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Edwardian

[Allegheny1600]

15 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

Call me old fashioned (and you would be right) but I too despise Halloween. It really does seem to have become the epitome of abhorrent American 'culture'. I'm gradually going off Christmas as the biggest consumerfest of them all, though being a greedy and selfish sort I will accept the benefits of the season.

 

Also, is it wrong that I think it's fine to laugh at and take the rise out of all cultures, especially my own? Is that racist, because certainly lots of other people I know have branded me such.

My wife and I gave up the Christmas thing a few years ago, made easier after our nephews grew up but I know some people for whom its literally a year round thing. Its people like that that make me despise it!

Halloween, we just turn the lights off at the front of the house and lock the door. Thankfully, we've not been egged here but we were in Derby.

You said it right - these things have become such a consumerfest, its terrible.

 

As for the other thing, I think if it's done in private and anyone who might be part of a culture you're ripping, knows you're neither serious nor malicious and that you are equally ripping your own culture - where's the harm?

My Irish mate Eddie used to tell the most wicked (and hilarious) Irish jokes that would be censored if a non-Irish person told them nowadays but as he was Irish through and through everybody I knew at the time all thought it was fine.

If it was to be done on paper or worse, online, you lose that intimacy and anyone can get a hold of it and then trouble starts.

 

Unless of course, I'm a racist too! Sure, I lack respect for certain other cultures but that respect has been lost through exposure over a long time. American culture for instance - it's insipid and all encompassing - I've come to despise it thoroughly, even though I still collect American models.

John.

[sem34090]

Some of the funniest jokes come from people within the culture being targeted by the joke, I find.

 

And I must admit that I have a racist tendency to despise most things American. That's not right, I know, but I have very little positive to say about what I have seen of its culture and some of its people.

[Nearholmer]

I like Christmas, which has deep-enough roots, and layers-enough of meaning, for anyone, back into the turning-of-the-year blow-outs of ancient days, which is why it involves the birth of the Son/Sun, but Halloween I don’t like either (American, and destructive of bonfire night!).

 

My good lady does like it, however, and always organises a children’s party and mass outing to obtain sweets by aggravated begging, so there was I on Thursday, stringing-up ghostly streamers etc. We did make a rather good sign from plywood though, so my daughter learned priming, rubbing-down, and top-coats!

 

 

[petethemole]

31 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

And I must admit that I have a racist tendency to despise most things American. That's not right, I know, but I have very little positive to say about what I have seen of its culture and some of its people.

 

The American "race" are the Native Americans, with a culture that has been systematically eroded and disrespected. The majority of the US population are a mixture of peoples from all over the world, with a variety of cultures of their own, all worthy of respect.  What may be seen as "American" culture is IMHO largely a product of big corporations, mass media and the entertainment industry. Disliking that is hardly "racist".

[Nearholmer]

True. US culture is diverse, complicated, varied by geography and ethnicity etc etc, and the bits we get rammed down our throats are nothing like all of it - but, by golly, do I not like most of those bits.

[Hroth]

Hmmmm....

 

*knocks on door*

 

Is this the Grumpy sub-committee of the CAPC?

 

On Halloween, we used to bob for apples (in a tub or on a string for wimps), eat toffee apples (the trial runs for the 5th), make lanterns out of turnips and tell mildly spooky ghost stories.  Dressing up went as far as a home-made wizards/witches hat.

 

All this "Halloween" carp is being pushed as a substitute for Bonfire Night, which I suspect will soon be labelled as some sort of "ist" as essentially we're celebrating the torture and execution of the members of a 17th Century Catholic plot....

 

I "like" Christmas, for a given value of "like".  I just don't go over the top celebrating it!

 

 

[Donw]

I think you have to be allowed to disapprove of elements of a culture without extending that to the people. For example there are some cultures that want to treat women as second class, indeed in this country the posh had that practice of sending the ladies out while the gents drank port. I can tell you my large collection of Great Aunts etc. would give anyone short shrift suggesting that.  I can remember when my wife and I walked into a pub only to find  it was men only. Their manner was rather offensive which seemed quite unecessary. The problems arise when cultures mix and some people find the culture of others offensive.

I dont think there is a clear culture of the US it is such a mix  as all the varius races which have emigrated  to the US brought a lot of their own cultures with them. Perhaps that is why the commercialised bits are what we see as US culture.

 

Don

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

As for the other thing, I think if it's done in private and anyone who might be part of a culture you're ripping, knows you're neither serious nor malicious and that you are equally ripping your own culture - where's the harm?

My Irish mate Eddie used to tell the most wicked (and hilarious) Irish jokes that would be censored if a non-Irish person told them nowadays but as he was Irish through and through everybody I knew at the time all thought it was fine.

If it was to be done on paper or worse, online, you lose that intimacy and anyone can get a hold of it and then trouble starts.

 

 

John.

I had some Jewish friends when I was younger who could tell the most amazing Jewish stories and jokes.  As for Irish jokes my family tree gives me permission to tell those should I want to.  But otherwise no.  Back in the day here in New Zealand it was considered fine to tell some really off jokes about Maori, but fortunately that attitude has died out.

[RedGemAlchemist]

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Celebrating Halloween has started to creep its insidious way into New Zealand and I don't like that at all.  It's not a part of our cultural tradition as it's just another nasty foreign influence spread from the US via the internet and social media.  Fortunately living in the rural countryside as I do I don't have to put up with it, but in cities like Auckland swarms of trick or treaters are becoming a problem.  People tell me, -'Oh it's just a bit of fun, it's nice seeing the kiddies dressing up', - but it's not as far as I'm concerned.

 

3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

Call me old fashioned (and you would be right) but I too despise Halloween. It really does seem to have become the epitome of abhorrent American 'culture'. I'm gradually going off Christmas as the biggest consumerfest of them all, though being a greedy and selfish sort I will accept the benefits of the season.

 

Also, is it wrong that I think it's fine to laugh at and take the rise out of all cultures, especially my own? Is that racist, because certainly lots of other people I know have branded me such.

Actually, many of the traditions of Halloween are of Irish origin. It all traces back to All Hallow's Eve or, to use the proper Gaelic name, Samhain. And I personally love Christmas. 

And no, it's not racist so long as it's clear you're taking the mick and don't actually say anything truly culturally offensive, like joking about ethnic cleansing to an Armenian. 

 

2 hours ago, sem34090 said:

I must admit that I have a racist tendency to despise most things American. That's not right, I know, but I have very little positive to say about what I have seen of its culture and some of its people.

I think at this point most people do, considering the state of the place. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by RedGemAlchemist

[Annie]

7 minutes ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

 

Actually, many of the traditions of Halloween are of Irish origin. It all traces back to All Hallow's Eve or, to use the proper Gaelic name, Samhain. And I personally love Christmas. 

And no, it's not racist so long as it's clear you're taking the mick and don't actually say anything truly culturally offensive, like joking about ethnic cleansing to an Armenian. 

 

I think at this point most people do, considering the state of the place. 

Yes that's true, but the Americanised and commercialised aberration has little to do with those old festivals/Holy days. 

[Compound2632]

Thinking about CA c. 1905 (if I may be excused for being on-topic), what autumn celebrations would there have been? Harvest Festival, I suppose, on the Sunday nearest the equinox - an essentially pagan festival effectively syncretised by the established church - and Guy Fawkes Day, a celebration instituted by the state, that has now acquired a quasi-pagan, or at least disestablished, flavour. Had that happened by 1905? I expect they were burning the Guy, if not the pope.

 

The Eve of the Feast of All Saints would not, I think, have any particular significance in early 20th-century west Norfolk, as the roots of its modern celebration lie in the popular Catholicism of southern Europe, from whence it made its way to North America.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

I like the Gothic spookiness and folkloric superstitions of the All Hallows Eve idea.  Always have.

 

The American ideas of 'trick or treat' and of dressing up in fancy dress, seemingly randomly, with no associations with the various 'children of the night'm I find odd and unappealing.

 

 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

 

Actually, many of the traditions of Halloween are of Irish origin. It all traces back to All Hallow's Eve or, to use the proper Gaelic name, Samhain. 

 

I'm sceptical of the influence of ancient Irish customs or their continuous survival - their currency is largely due to the Celtic Revival of the late 19th century. That had a lot to do with the protestant elite Home Rulers trying to establish an Irish identity that was distinct from the Catholic identity of the population at large.

[Northroader]

My son in law always likes to push the boat out with pumpkin carving.

Anyway, now that’s done, on to bonfire night, although it would be nice if somebody explained to all and sundry that it actually supposed to happen on November 5th, and there’s no need to let fireworks any other night, like they’ve been doing here for a good part of this week.

Then, folks, we can move on to the great event taking place in December this year, instead of Christmas, which has been cancelled.

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Thinking about CA c. 1905 (if I may be excused for being on-topic), what autumn celebrations would there have been? Harvest Festival, I suppose, on the Sunday nearest the equinox - an essentially pagan festival effectively syncretised by the established church - and Guy Fawkes Day, a celebration instituted by the state, that has now acquired a quasi-pagan, or at least disestablished, flavour. Had that happened by 1905? I expect they were burning the Guy, if not the pope.

 

When pope burning in effigy died out is an interesting question, to which I have no answer.

 

CA has a prominent recusant family, based on real Norfolk history. In the real Norfolk the Paston-Bedingfelds were not popular with their Protestant villagers in the Eighteenth Century and had to build a wall to keep them out! How much prejudice had survived to 1905?  Was the presence of a prominent lay Catholic family a disincentive or an incentive to keep such Guy Fawkes traditions alive?  

 

Then there is the decline of folklorique festivals generally.  Many have had to be self-consciously revived in modern times.  Take the Straw Bear in the Fenland town of Whittlesey.  Stamped out in the Edwardian period by do-gooders because it was an 0rgy of drunk and disorderly behaviour.

 

Middle class women of the day were denied the vote and the ability to participate in the professions and public office. Much of that under-employed talent and frustrated ambition seems to have been channeled into 'do-gooding', not least in finding various ways to come between the honest working man and his pint.  My Great Grandmother took her daughter, my Grandmother, out to bar the doors of Leeds pubs and demand that the men sign the Pledge. Respect for the fairer sex and a sense of social deference meant that they were able to do so unmolested.  Still, I admire the restraint of those men who went thirsty as a result.

 

EDIT: Apparently the Automatic Prude takes exception to the word 0rgy. Those wretched do-gooders again!

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Hroth]

Perhaps we could establish a concordance of alternative spellings to confound the Auto-Prude/Net Nanny?

 

Apropos of nothing, there were a number of tits on the birdfeeder in my garden this morning!

 

See?  The bloody thing is inconsistent!

 

Or perhaps its suddenly becoming more broadminded?

 

Hmmm....

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Hroth
Trying to provoke the Net Nanny...

[RedGemAlchemist]

47 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I like the Gothic spookiness and folkloric superstitions of the All Hallows Eve idea.  Always have.

Exactly. Don't Americanise it, do it the old fashioned way.
You can still do pumpkin carving though, that dates back to time immemorial. Though back in the day it was traditionally turnips, like this 18th Century one in the Museum of Irish Country Life in Turlough, as pumpkins hadn't been brought to the UK yet, so if you can get your hands on a large enough turnip use that instead of buying a pumpkin and make the pumpkin into puree. Pumpkin pie is delicious

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

Exactly. Don't Americanise it, do it the old fashioned way.
You can still do pumpkin carving though, that dates back to time immemorial. Though back in the day it was traditionally turnips, like this 18th Century one in the Museum of Irish Country Life in Turlough, as pumpkins hadn't been brought to the UK yet, so if you can get your hands on a large enough turnip use that instead of buying a pumpkin and make the pumpkin into puree. Pumpkin pie is delicious

 

A very scary turnip head there.

[Donw]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

My son in law always likes to push the boat out with pumpkin carving.

Anyway, now that’s done, on to bonfire night, although it would be nice if somebody explained to all and sundry that it actually supposed to happen on November 5th, and there’s no need to let fireworks any other night, like they’ve been doing here for a good part of this week.

Then, folks, we can move on to the great event taking place in December this year, instead of Christmas, which has been cancelled.

 

The really good thing about festivals such as Christmas is they cannot be cancelled. They belong to people and people wil usually mark them as a special day no matter how harsh their circumstances. I reckon if the government decalred Christmas would be a normal day very few would actually turn up for work. They could ban the council street lights etc. but stopping people doing their own thing.... November the 5th survives because it is a good time for a bit of a celebration summer is well over   and winter is round the corner it will be to cold to do much outdoors soon so a big bonfire seems fun. I suspect people will have their own ideas on who the guy might represent. For us with no kids and dogs that get frightened, the Firework season (which is what it has become) is something to be endured. Besides with Global warming perhaps it will become an offence to burn stuff.

 

Don

Edited November 2, 2019 by Donw
Demangling the text.