Jump to content
 

Recommended Posts

I knew I shouldn't have reminded the Parish Council that:

 

  1. Oxford Rail had announced new product
  2. The announcement included items of regional import
  3. All Oxford Rail items require minute examination with a strong lens....

 

Sorry.......   :prankster:

  • Funny 2
  • Friendly/supportive 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Donw said:

 

No doubt in early Victorian times there would have been a lot of local Maltings and Barley grown fairly locally before railways made it easier to move stuff around although ships may well have carried it to small ports.

 

Don

 

Historically, in North Norfolk ships carried malt and barley out of small ports...

Edited by wagonman
  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

 

 

The full quote:

 

The difference between the last batch of GWR box vans and the GER standard box van was actually just the angle of the head stock. GWR had a square end and the GER ones were tapered. there was a smaller GER version that was 15ft long. the GWR vans started at 15ft6 but the last batch of 1888, the same year as the first iron mink were built, were on the now standard 16ft under frame. Our GER kit also has the option of vents on the ends.

 

The reference to headstock is to the fact that the GWR iron bulb and early steel channel u/fs, including earlier 16' u/fs, started off with square ends and only later adopted angled ends (as seen on the Cooper Craft kit, so a key point if back-dating those).  

 

To summarise:

L167 of 1878 had wooden u/fs (50) and were 15'6" o/h

L225 of 1881 (100), L339 of 1885, and L239 completed 1886 (200) had bulb iron u/fs. These also appear to have all been 15'6" so far as I can tell.

 

Atkins at al maintain that construction of these o/f wooden minks ceased in 1886, with only the last lot, L358, having steel channel u/fs.  The drawing of this diagram in Atkins shows that it retained the 15'6" body-length.  

 

Turning to dimensions, all the examples in Atkins et al, including the last L358 Lot, show that the GW body was of a shorter length and that, as I said earlier, the GER vans were taller.

 

The comparative dimensions I have are:

 

Dimension                                                 GER                   GWR

Length over headstocks:                        16'1"                  15'6"

Body height to roof apex:                       11' 3/4"             10'6"

 

So, I cannot reconcile this information with Furness Wagon's statement.  That said, few sources are flawless. My copy of Atkins, which may well be the most recent, is '70s scholarship, revised in 1998. Evidence is uncovered from time to time and views change.  For instance, Atkins will place the change to grey livery to the 1890s, whereas the current view tends, on balance, to 1904.

 

If Furness Wagon has information not reflected in Atkins, I'd love to see it; just because I can find no support for their statement doesn't mean they're not quite correct. 

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Listening to some music today I felt this might be a response to some on the Angst we have felt on here

 

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke

 

I feel that if it is a good model you could letter it for GWR, GER or probably other railways too without many be able to spot the subtefuge.  We happily accept other inconsistencies. Sitting a couple of foot away watching a train roll by would you spot the difference?

 

Don

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 minute ago, wagonman said:

 

Historically, in North Norfolk ships carried malt and barley out of small ports...

 

It  would have been a long trip to north wales from Norfolk. I think from Shropsire by canal to Ellesmere Port thence Ship to North Wales might have the edge on Norfolk. Of course if you are in London Norfolk by ship works fine.

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Donw said:

Listening to some music today I felt this might be a response to some on the Angst we have felt on here

 

No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke

 

I feel that if it is a good model you could letter it for GWR, GER or probably other railways too without many be able to spot the subtefuge.  We happily accept other inconsistencies. Sitting a couple of foot away watching a train roll by would you spot the difference?

 

Don

 

Much to be said for that.

 

However, I prefer to know the correct answer, then I can decide what compromises I want to make, as I frequently do with WNR loco-bashes, as these are all supposed to represent real locomotives, but often must be creatively derived from what I can bash and bodge!

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

It  would have been a long trip to north wales from Norfolk. I think from Shropsire by canal to Ellesmere Port thence Ship to North Wales might have the edge on Norfolk. Of course if you are in London Norfolk by ship works fine.

Don

 

London was where much of it did indeed end up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

I have sketched out an outside framed covered wagon, so not too dissimilar from the GWR and GER examples under discussion.  I would do enough to make them distinct, of course, but very much in the same phase of evolution, though the WNR would probably have wooden underframes for wagons built to its designs c.1880-1895. 

 

Here is the GE one

 

857262556_GERHoldenVan02.jpg.1622a4dbaabd70a133640427e2cc1528.jpg

 

 

EDIT: When I build a WNR covered wagon, I'll do one for you, too, if you'd be prepared to run a fictional wagon.  That way, if you do gain a GER van in due course, you can alternate, putting the WNR one away when Serious Visitors come round.

 

BTW, the picture above shows post 1902 livery, so you want the small lettering.

Nice.  A proper GER van and not a modern image one.  Looks like a preserved one that's starting to compost itself due to neglect and an inadequate paint job which is a bit unfortunate.

Never been that keen on the post 1902 large lettering.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

For instance, Atkins will place the change to grey livery to the 1890s, whereas the current view tends, on balance, to 1904.

The current view, on RMWeb. Not seen any published work on it elsewhere - so if you know of some, please share!

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

However, I prefer to know the correct answer, then I can decide what compromises I want to make,

I like that. Only when we know the truth, are we informed sufficiently to deviate from it!

(As you work in 00, you have already accepted some pretty fundamental compromises, and as CJF once remarked, this makes it easier to accommodate other inaccuracies, e.g. a wagon bring a scale 6” too long. Your track gauge is out by more than that over a smaller measurement. Observation and not criticism.)

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Regularity said:

The current view, on RMWeb. Not seen any published work on it elsewhere - so if you know of some, please share!

 

 

 

Based on research, which is summarised Here

 

You will see that it is entirely inconclusive (!).

 

There is a difference between establishing that we cannot safely accept, say, 1898, as the date of the changeover as fact, and the ability to establish the correct date. 1904 is a logical supposition, but that is all it appears to be, though I agree with you that the fashion is now to accept that. 

 

It all comes down to one thing in the end; no one has yet been able to find a circular issued instructing the C&W staff to paint wagons grey.

 

If you want to model the GW in all it's fin de siècle glory - I would suggest in terms of design and livery this is c.1894 to 1905 - this is a problem! 

 

The problem: A 4-plank of the cast plate era; was it outshopped in red or grey???? 

 

4plank-dcI-brakes.jpg.1781a193d65634a30e5c9cee12116fb5.jpg

 

One of Mikkel's exquisite wagons (again from gwr.org.uk)

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
7 hours ago, Regularity said:

The current view, on RMWeb. Not seen any published work on it elsewhere - so if you know of some, please share!

 

The most recent published works that touch on the question of wagon livery in this period are, to my knowledge:

 

J. Lewis et al., Great Western Way (2e, HMRS, 2009)

A.G. Atkins, W. Beard and R. Tourret, G W R Goods Wagons (3e, Tourret Publishing, Abingdon, 1998)

 

I understand the latter has been reprinted more recently but without further revision.

 

I haven't consulted Great Western Way myself. My frustration with Atkins et al. is that they do not quote their sources for the livery statements they make. In the apparent absence of any official documentation, it would be entirely understandable that authors would consider speculation in print to be unwise. 

 

The same caution does not apply to us as individual modellers posting online! Unlike the authors of books, we are forced to make choices based on a best guess in the light of available information - this includes more recent research uncovering contemporary descriptions of wagon colour from non-official sources. Our best guesses are of course also tempered by personal preference, for example, I've elected to paint ironwork below solebar level black, whereas others, arguing backwards from the grey livery, would make these parts red too:

 

256184881_P1020916compresscrop.JPG.22da03c68c3dc9aa5b9c2c5f1058b6e5.JPG

 

There has been quite a bit of discussion as to whether it is possible to distinguish between grey and red wagons in photographs of the period. There are so many factors at play that affect the reflectivity of a surface, in addition to the spectral response of a photographic emulsion, that I don't believe one can draw any conclusion. It has just occurred to me that that analysis, by @MikeOxon and others, has been confined to the study of photos of Great Western wagons; it would be interesting to compare with photographs of wagons that are known to have been painted red lead, e.g. Great Northern, Caledonian, South Eastern / SECR before 1911.

 

 

  • Like 4
  • Agree 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the GWR.org page, I fear there is a mis-reading of the entries in Carter's Little Livery Pills, in that his 1896 entry actually says "Wagon stock was a light red colour with white lettering. Goods brakes were dark grey" which is a repeat of The Locomotive's information. Carter's 1914 entry "Wagons dark red and grey" echoes Hamilton Ellis's note. Carter doesn't mention grey again until 1938 "Shunting trucks were painted dark grey" and then in 1943 "Covered wagons and containers......were painted dark red. Open wagons were painted dark red, but only on the left-hand bottom quarter board, where the standard wagon lettering was displayed in a reduced size"????

Just to add to the mix, a book published in 1943, Our Railway History, contains a comprehensive summary of pre-grouping liveries. The entry for the GWR is "Dark red; and also grey." Rather more contemporary than some opinions.

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The most recent published works that touch on the question of wagon livery in this period are, to my knowledge:

 

J. Lewis et al., Great Western Way (2e, HMRS, 2009)

A.G. Atkins, W. Beard and R. Tourret, G W R Goods Wagons (3e, Tourret Publishing, Abingdon, 1998)

 

I understand the latter has been reprinted more recently but without further revision.

 

I haven't consulted Great Western Way myself. My frustration with Atkins et al. is that they do not quote their sources for the livery statements they make. In the apparent absence of any official documentation, it would be entirely understandable that authors would consider speculation in print to be unwise. 

 

The same caution does not apply to us as individual modellers posting online! Unlike the authors of books, we are forced to make choices based on a best guess in the light of available information - this includes more recent research uncovering contemporary descriptions of wagon colour from non-official sources. Our best guesses are of course also tempered by personal preference, for example, I've elected to paint ironwork below solebar level black, whereas others, arguing backwards from the grey livery, would make these parts red too:

 

256184881_P1020916compresscrop.JPG.22da03c68c3dc9aa5b9c2c5f1058b6e5.JPG

 

There has been quite a bit of discussion as to whether it is possible to distinguish between grey and red wagons in photographs of the period. There are so many factors at play that affect the reflectivity of a surface, in addition to the spectral response of a photographic emulsion, that I don't believe one can draw any conclusion. It has just occurred to me that that analysis, by @MikeOxon and others, has been confined to the study of photos of Great Western wagons; it would be interesting to compare with photographs of wagons that are known to have been painted red lead, e.g. Great Northern, Caledonian, South Eastern / SECR before 1911.

 

 

 

A good summary.

 

For balance, here is a Didcot wagon with pre-1904 lettering, in grey:

 

1587821003_IronMinkdiagramV6withpre-19045inchG.W.Rlettering.jpg.453f1c5393e56e36b6ae5151c322197d.jpg

Copyright Gareth Price

 

At some point, I'll get to that part of the kit pile that contains GW wagons built 1898-1903, and will have to make a decision, as I would be running them in their original livery, whichever that is!

 

There are relatively few contemporary references that have been identified by researchers, and, seemingly, no official documentation on the point.

 

One of the apparently very few contemporary references is the Locomotion Magazine of 1896, and I am minded to accept this as evidence that red was at least predominant, but probably universally applied, at that time.  It's worth reproducing the quote (found on gwr.org.uk):

 

A light red colour is adopted for the wagon stock with white lettering but the goods brakes are a dark grey.

 

Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that the change came sometime after this.  But was this 1898, as favoured by Atkins et al, or at the time of the lettering change in 1904?

 

gwr/org.uk also cites the October 1904 issue of Railway Magazine in which a diagram gives the colour of wagons as "dark red, also grey".

 

This could reflect grey wagons introduced with the 1904 25" lettering, or reflect that there was already a fair proportion of them in circulation, suggesting a slightly earlier date.

 

Given a wagon might take 10 years for a repaint to happen, if the transition to grey started in, say, 1898, there would still be a mix of red and grey wagons in 1904, but not necessarily a predominance of red, which is what the article seems to imply!

 

A good point re other red wagons.  It might be that this merely confirms the red-blindness of  orthochromatic film.

 

Red, white and blue, what does it mean to you?

 

1680057209_SouthMagneticPole1909.png.2769339ccbac99c3e8dd2079cf94b698.png

 

At the South Magnetic Pole in 1909 (wiki)

 

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The only thing that makes sense of the GWR wagon colour is whether they were painting different colours in different places at certain times.  I assume not all repair work was done at Swindon. I can imagine a repair depot using up existing paint stock long after the new stock was being turned out in the new livery.

 

Don

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
10 minutes ago, Donw said:

The only thing that makes sense of the GWR wagon colour is whether they were painting different colours in different places at certain times.  I assume not all repair work was done at Swindon. I can imagine a repair depot using up existing paint stock long after the new stock was being turned out in the new livery.

 

 

Not so sure; the various statements made by contemporary observers can be reconciled with a painting interval of up to 12 years, for which there is other evidence.

 

I gather Saltney and Worcester works continued to repair and maintain wagons well after they ceased to be used for new construction - up to the 1930s.

Edited by Compound2632
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

How we know that algorithms don't work ....

 

I suppose leather caps are slightly less controversial that inappropriately clad young ladies.....

 

(Or an unmentionable item that cropped up on an Alibaba ad on Christmas Eve)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
48 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Pop a cap in yo ass more likely if I were to wear one of those!

 

To be thoroughly woke on this point, such expressions almost certainly have their roots in rural southern English dialect as exported to the American colonies and picked up by African slaves. See here and then linking back to here

 

I have to say that most of what was being advertised to me just wasn't my size.

Edited by Compound2632
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

roots in rural southern English dialect

 

Which, if correct, gives us a really interesting double-circular-rooted dialect in parts of London, where youngsters mix estuarine SE, US gangsta copied from TV/films (so exported, modified and re-imported), afro-carribean (massively varied between islands and also having roots in slave/master relationships), plus bits of colloquial Hindi and Urdu, polari (which is partly, but not exclusively Italian-rooted), and prison slang.

 

Sort of a reminder that Lingua Franca wasn't the invention of the learned for use in academic discourse, but a tool use by sailors, wharfingers and import/export traders.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...