Castle Aching

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Oh, I thought the Germans transformed theirs into ours?

 

We borrowed some Germans in the 18th Century and they had to change their names mainly because of the likes of the Mail and the Express during WW1.

 

[Compound2632]

That was only after we'd had to borrow some Scots. Inbetween whiles, a Dutchman imposed himself on us and before that, various Welsh, French, Normans, Danes, Saxons, Italians, and Celts. I'm looking out for the lineal descendant of Old King Cole, the last truly British monarch.

[Regularity]

On 25/01/2020 at 19:14, Nearholmer said:

If only.

 

The nearest thing to a litter of Pomeranians, is probably the former German royal family, the Schwerin-Lowitz, who I think were Dukes and Duchesses of Pomerania in their spare time.

 

Here is the last princess. One of her granddaughters was a member of my team at work for a short while, being at the time a Trainee Health & Safety Manager. She had an enormously long formal title that was effectively a list of the pre-federal duchies of northern Germany, which she didn’t ‘go by’.

 

 

Lady Jessica?

[Andy Hayter]

11 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

We borrowed some Germans in the 18th Century and they had to change their names mainly because of the likes of the Mail and the Express during WW1.

 

 

And the proctalgia continues from these publications.

[Nearholmer]

35 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Lady Jessica?

 

I had to look that up, and even now I'm not at all sure I understand .......... I get confused by who begat whom in The Bible, let alone Dune.

[drmditch]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That was only after we'd had to borrow some Scots. Inbetween whiles, a Dutchman imposed himself on us and before that, various Welsh, French, Normans, Danes, Saxons, Italians, and Celts. I'm looking out for the lineal descendant of Old King Cole, the last truly British monarch.

Not sure this is fair to William III. After all he was 'invited' after a fashion, and it was his wife Mary who was the popular one.

Also, although the Dutch became unpopular, the 'Glorious Revolution' did keep us out of the hands of the Roi Soleil.

When choosing cross-channel alliances you have to choose the right one.

Not sure what happens when you choose none!

 

Also, perhaps we could show some sympathy for the Stuart sisters, Mary and Anne.

In their attempts to provide for the succession the miscarriages, stillbirths, and infant mortalities reached numbers which we can only see as horrific; and they had to carry on ruling the country as well.

 

Also (for the third time!) would not consider her late and great Majesty Elizabeth, (the first of that name) to have been truly English?

[Edwardian]

I grew up well aware of the Whig view of history, and, while my College Tutor, a humourless bluestocking if ever there was one, was contemptuous of it, I recall no alternative coherent view of our Island story being proposed. No doubt the point is that there isn't one. 

 

As well as the golden thread of democratic evolution from magna carta to the Queen in Parliament, one of the tenants of the Whig view seems to have been that, from Tudor times to today, we have constantly had to intervene in European affairs in order to prevent the volatile Continentals oppressing each other. Even our joining of the EEC could be seen as an extension of this pre-occupation of policy of maintaining "the balance of power" in Europe.

 

Quite whether this ex post facto gloss on several centuries of English, then British, foreign policy holds good is an interesting point.  One might argue that the dual monarchy-then-United Kingdom was in fact used to further the Continental policies of the first the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic and thereafter those of the Electors of Hanover!   

 

 

[webbcompound]

Although there were times in the 18th century when the policies of the Electorate of Hannover, and the United Kingdom were diametrically opposed, despite sharing a king. (and were the tenants of the Whig view attempting to exercise squatters rights in the face of the enclosures?)

Edited January 27, 2020 by webbcompound

[Northroader]

Then Britain became puppets of Saxe Coburg Gotha. Ever looked that up on a map?

[Hroth]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That was only after we'd had to borrow some Scots. Inbetween whiles, a Dutchman imposed himself on us and before that, various Welsh, French, Normans, Danes, Saxons, Italians, and Celts.

 

Whilst I don't want to appear too unpatriotic, so far, all the above seem to have been absorbed quite readily into the body politic with no attempts to annex us to other countries.  Even with the Romans (whatever they did for us) we remained a very semi-detached province.  I'd even go so far as to say that ALL our imported rulers seem to have turned by the English Borg and started trying to assimilate other countries pretty quickly....

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

33 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Whilst I don't want to appear too unpatriotic, so far, all the above seem to have been absorbed quite readily into the body politic with no attempts to annex us to other countries.  Even with the Romans (whatever they did for us) we remained a very semi-detached province.  I'd even go so far as to say that ALL our imported rulers seem to have turned by the English Borg and started trying to assimilate other countries pretty quickly....

 

 

 

 

Indeed, one might almost say ....

 

[wagonman]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I grew up well aware of the Whig view of history, and, while my College Tutor, a humourless bluestocking if ever there was one, was contemptuous of it, I recall no alternative coherent view of our Island story being proposed. No doubt the point is that there isn't one. 

 

 

'Tis a pity she was so humourless, but on the whole I share your tutor's contempt for the Whig view of History. There are alternatives, though most of them make at least a token nod in the direction of Marx. Karl, not Groucho. Mostly.

 

 

[Compound2632]

59 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

There are alternatives, 

 

 

John Lingard...

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

John Lingard...

 

Could one not, at least in the early C19, be both a Catholic and a Whig historian? I had in mind the likes of E P Thompson or A L Morton, or alternatively the English equivalent of the French Annales school – if there is one. Raphael Samuel and his History Workshop perhaps?

 

 

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Indeed, one might almost say ....

 

[brianusa]

This off topic conversation has almost proved one thing, Kings and Queens matter in spite of the republican naysayers.  Take Trump in the USA for example (please) or France, one could be a world leader while the other needs to sort out a few problems before it could even consider it.  Other republics ruled by semi dictators continue to be thorns in the side of civilisation in other parts of the world, usually from colonies of old empires.  There is not much likelihood  of trouble from northern Euro or Scandinavian countries where monarchs still rule and likely to continue as most of them are still young enough.  HMTQ has done well over all these years and hopefully the future  of the UK will remain in good hands in spite of the recent turmoil, well into the future.

[Regularity]

That’s a nice thing to say.

The Sovereign represents continuity in a representative democracy with an hereditary Head of State. It also means that elected officials are always reminded of their place in things: here today, gone tomorrow but the nation will still be there.

It also enables us to be a bit silly at regular intervals, in celebration of another regnal anniversary, and that let’s out any fervent patriotism and we don’t need to go around swearing allegiance to a flag or some principles: we were born as subjects, and that’s that.

In a similar vein, we have an Established Church, which means that someone, somewhere, (possible they Sovereign!) is that religious stuff on our behalf, so we don’t need to get zealous or fundamentalist about anything.

It wasn’t always so, of course, but nowadays we are happy to sit back and accept being “only” the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world, rather than the biggest (which we haven’t been for a long time now) and have stopped looking for countries where the locals use sticks as weapons, so that we can impose our will on them.

It’s rather nice, really, despite all our internal problems and undoubted need for further progress, this is still one of the most agreeable and tolerant countries in which to live.

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, brianusa said:

well into the future.

 

George VII, George VIII, and George IX are all in sight. 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

have stopped looking for countries where the locals use sticks as weapons

 

There's enough of that at home:

 

 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

The Sovereign represents continuity in a representative democracy with an hereditary Head of State. It also means that elected officials are always reminded of their place in things: here today, gone tomorrow but the nation will still be there.

 

Which is one of the most ineffably wonderful things that keeps us from falling down a ruddy great rabbit hole.  It means that we aren't beholden to a "leader" who has to be elected at huge expense every four years or so, costs at least as much as an entire Monarchy to maintain and has so much political power that they can do incalculable damage to the country if they go off the rails.

 

Of course, we also have a political system that has lead us to the precipice, which we're all going to leap off in a few days time...

 

If its not one thing, its another!

 

 

btw the Stick Dancers.  Now there's a historical document, not only performing in blackface, but also outside a Woolies!

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Hroth
Another thort...

[Edwardian]

The blackened faces make me think of Molly, the dark morris, traditionally danced in winter .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Donw]

Well asI understand it the ancient britons had probably come across from the continent.  The romans invaded and ruled us for some years before Angles Saxons and Jutes invaded in great numbers to materially change the population they had just about settled to 7 kingdoms when the danes kept invading  and a lot settled.  The saxon under Harold had just had a battle up north and had to rush south  to fight off a group of  Franco/Danish vikings who defeated him and ruled us for many years. So worrying about importing a few foreigners to rule seems very odd we mostly have strong blood lines to people who invaded in the first place. 

 

Don 

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I grew up well aware of the Whig view of history, and, while my College Tutor, a humourless bluestocking if ever there was one, was contemptuous of it, I recall no alternative coherent view of our Island story being proposed. No doubt the point is that there isn't one. 

 

As well as the golden thread of democratic evolution from magna carta to the Queen in Parliament, one of the tenants of the Whig view seems to have been that, from Tudor times to today, we have constantly had to intervene in European affairs in order to prevent the volatile Continentals oppressing each other. Even our joining of the EEC could be seen as an extension of this pre-occupation of policy of maintaining "the balance of power" in Europe.

 

Quite whether this ex post facto gloss on several centuries of English, then British, foreign policy holds good is an interesting point.  One might argue that the dual monarchy-then-United Kingdom was in fact used to further the Continental policies of the first the Stadtholder of the Dutch Republic and thereafter those of the Electors of Hanover!   

 

 

If you haven't already read it, I recommend "The Thistle and the Rose" by Allan Massie. It's a very perceptive look at the mutual history of Scotland and England over the past 600 years or so.

[Edwardian]

 

8 hours ago, Donw said:

Well asI understand it the ancient britons had probably come across from the continent.  The romans invaded and ruled us for some years before Angles Saxons and Jutes invaded in great numbers to materially change the population they had just about settled to 7 kingdoms when the danes kept invading  and a lot settled.  The saxon under Harold had just had a battle up north and had to rush south  to fight off a group of  Franco/Danish vikings who defeated him and ruled us for many years. So worrying about importing a few foreigners to rule seems very odd we mostly have strong blood lines to people who invaded in the first place. 

 

Don 

 

plus ça change ...

 

I bet Mordred made political capital about King Arthur's failure to keep down the net migration figures ... 

[wagonman]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

plus ça change ...

 

I bet Mordred made political capital about King Arthur's failure to keep down the net migration figures ... 

 

He did his best – see the battle of Mons Badonis...