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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

The "sketch" doesn't quite capture the sitter, but was evidently worth the effort, because the finished work was successful.

I immediately knew it was you.

A younger you, of course, but definitely you. ;)

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2 hours ago, Donw said:

I think we have all bought models which in hindsight we would have left on the shelf. Although S gaugers may have less of an issue with this there being little to purchase. 

I think these are the only two S gauge locos that are even close to being referred to as match mass-produced:

spacer.pngspacer.png

The E4 doesn't even have a tender! (unsurprisingly), I reckon that it would be able to be adapted into a working model by attaching a scratchbuilt motorised tender to it. Of course; the garish gold would definitely need re-hashing into silver with the addition of certain features, such as smoke-box door darts and the like...

 

Damn it! Too slow to reply!

Edited by Hando
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1 hour ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

As someone who is an ardent fan of the Hornby Four-Wheeler coach, I demand satisfaction and challenge you to pistols at dawn. :P

Unfortunately you might find yourself outnumbered - I'm with the host on this one! ;)

 

I personally think that there are just so many better options available: clerestory bashing and ratio bashing will generally result in a much better model for a relatively small extra outlay. Clerestories can be got cheaply enough if one can wait - I've never paid more than a fiver for one (besides the one which had a motor bogie in it).

 

My gripe with the Hornby 'model' is that it can't really be used to represent anything remotely realistic and the features it displays means it's not exactly easy to pass it off as a plausible freelance coach. The only thing I'd do with one is ditch the body and stick the chassis under an O-16.5 coach.

 

That being said, I wonder if one could fill in the gaps between the beading to represent panelling - That'd solve one of the problems at least. Then bash it a bit more to give you plausible compartment sizes, a new chassis... and you might as well have bashed a ratio kit or a clerestory.

Edited by sem34090
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1 hour ago, Hando said:

I think these are the only two S gauge locos that are even close to being referred to as match mass-produced:

spacer.pngspacer.png

The E4 doesn't even have a tender! (unsurprisingly), I reckon that it would be able to be adapted into a working model by attaching a scratchbuilt motorised tender to it. Of course; the garish gold would definitely need re-hashing into silver with the addition of certain features, such as smoke-box door darts and the like...

 

Damn it! Too slow to reply!

 

I know you meant to say "T26"!

 

24 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

Unfortunately you might find yourself outnumbered - I'm with the host on this one! ;)

 

I personally think that there are just so many better options available: clerestory bashing and ratio bashing will generally result in a much better model for a relatively small extra outlay. Clerestories can be got cheaply enough if one can wait - I've never paid more than a fiver for one (besides the one which had a motor bogie in it).

 

My gripe with the Hornby 'model' is that it can't really be used to represent anything remotely realistic and the features it displays means it's not exactly easy to pass it off as a plausible freelance coach. The only thing I'd do with one is ditch the body and stick the chassis under an O-16.5 coach.

 

That being said, I wonder if one could fill in the gaps between the beading to represent panelling - That'd solve one of the problems at least. Then bash it a bit more to give you plausible compartment sizes, a new chassis... and you might as well have bashed a ratio kit or a clerestory.

 

I have seen that done - filling between the beading - and it looked very effective. 

 

I was tempted to try it but concluded that a 3-compartment coach in that body style would be fairly unlikely/uncommon, added to which the proportions, the roof radius, the underframe etc all left something to be desired, so in the end I concluded that the game wasn't worth the candle. 

 

I may, of course, feel the same about my new purchase before I'm done!

 

I really hope the doily cut coaches turn out OK, because they're cheap as chips relative to 3D prints or brass kits and you can make want you want! 

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5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I really hope the doily cut coaches turn out OK, because they're cheap as chips relative to 3D prints or brass kits and you can make want you want! 

Unless one owns a resin printer... ;)

That said, the doily cut ones are still cheaper and look most effective!

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1 minute ago, sem34090 said:

Unless one owns a resin printer... ;)

That said, the doily cut ones are still cheaper and look most effective!

 

They also have the benefit of not requiring an 'pooter skills.  I jus t photocopy the drawings and stick them to the plasticard!

 

Crude, certainly, though it remain to be seen if we can add "but effective"!

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Best tread carefully, one of them’s called “Annie”.

 

Yes, and it doesn't look anything like her, either 

 

hqdefault.jpg.d40ba9b72da93996f438adbca1136216.jpg

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49 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

...represent....a plausible freelance coach.

 

Hit the Hatton's nail on the head*. Given the (often very successful) make-overs that the Clerestories and Ratio kits get, with bash- etch- and scratch options all well represented, I'm really quite excited to see what comes of this new addition to the pre-Grouping armoury.

 

*Now the model has had the benfit of extensive feedback from Parishoners, that is. An interesting process to witness, and speaks well for both Hatton's and the community here.

 

Just watched the Starlink flypast. I found it affirming and inspiring, although I shared the spectacle with someone who saw it in proof of their fears...it takes all sorts, I s'pose. Now to burrow after early Starbuck trailers for balance until the forecast meteor shower... :imsohappy:

Edited by Schooner
Gotta be quick round here! Is there any rhyme or reason behind the 'New post' prompt showing up (or in this case, not)?
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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Oh dear. Does look like something designed by someone with scant understanding of the prototype. They need to be sent to a re-education centre such as Embsay, Ingrow, or Quainton Road, once conditions permit.

 

I have photographic proof that clerestory carriages just like the Hornby versions in fact existed.

 

'I know this to be true.'   (title of new biography of our NZ PM Jacinda Adern who seeks sainthood in the UN)

 

or alternatively the eager voice of a teenage male at the beginning of the US Public Radio 'TED Hour'  (technology, entertainment, design, if you were wondering).... "The true nature of reality beckons.....    (hesitates for dramatic effect) .... from just beyond."

 

Yes I have mentioned this before, bt some things bear repetition.

 

anyway, I empathise, Edwardian, with respect to a surfeit of 4-wheeled brake thirds. I have that problem continually.

 

for historical truth and accuracy look no further...

 

the clerestory in question is second from rear.

 

1357506465_4013_saint_Dawlish_5abc_r1800.jpg.e5e1342bb1df5f1dde6db9da97b47a1f.jpg 

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Are the software-controlled automatic doily-cutters that are sold by craft warehouses any good for making coaches?

 

If they can handle thick-enough thin card (if that makes sense), with sufficient precision, my gut feeling is that they would be a better the route to a solution that 3D printing, most of which seems to my jaded eye to be either unsuitable for railway modelling use, or used unsuitably .......... why the obsession with making complex things "in one print", rather than as a kit of printed parts, for instance?

 

The ultimate is to give-up on such a teeny scale as 1:76.2, and go to 1:43, or better still larger still, because then laser-cut ply doilies become a good prospect, and they lead to truly beautiful coaches.

 

Brandbright provide kits for both freelance and several prototype coaches, and they is truly luvverly. http://www.brandbright.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=12_14&products_id=102  (if a bit big for CA!)

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27 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Are the software-controlled automatic doily-cutters that are sold by craft warehouses any good for making coaches?

 

 

a craft printer can do it but a laser works better 

 

DSC_4210a.jpg.d4ab39b9010a9eee23dcf0b6a5c2729b.jpg

 

originally went the craft printer way but upgraded to a laser 

 

Nick B

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26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Are the software-controlled automatic doily-cutters that are sold by craft warehouses any good for making coaches?

 

If they can handle thick-enough thin card (if that makes sense), with sufficient precision, my gut feeling is that they would be a better the route to a solution that 3D printing, most of which seems to my jaded eye to be either unsuitable for railway modelling use, or used unsuitably .......... why the obsession with making complex things "in one print", rather than as a kit of printed parts, for instance?

 

The ultimate is to give-up on such a teeny scale as 1:76.2, and go to 1:43, or better still larger still, because then laser-cut ply doilies become a good prospect, and they lead to truly beautiful coaches.

 

Brandbright provide kits for both freelance and several prototype coaches, and they is truly luvverly. http://www.brandbright.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=12_14&products_id=102  (if a bit big for CA!)

 

I presume you are thinking about the sillouette cutter and would refer you to Chris N's thread mainly about coaches for Traeth Mawr. I have one I bought at the ASLRM Reading do a couple  of years ago for a Cambrian Family saloon in 7mm currently in the TODO queue.

 

Actuall I think James does a good job with the kraft knife or scalpel on buildings and seems to be doing the same with coaches. I rather like seeing something done by the modeller using the skills he has rather than adapting something not quite the ticket.  Yes it does take up a lot of time though.

 

Don 

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Original post (with drink having been taken) deleted

Very sorry nick about glibe comment on the laser printed SDJR van.

 

I never managed to persevere with my Silhouette cutter. I watched Rob Pulham demonstrate one at a show in Kirkby Stephen (Stainmore Railway) show with James. He was making, to my mind, beautiful little 4mm scale vans and stock with radiused panelling.

I managed the CAD parts of production (I used to teach it) but could never get the cutter functioning satisfactorily using styrene sheet. It seemed however often it passed there were always bits it missed.

 

 

Edited by runs as required
in thecold light of morn - Oui, je regrette...
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3 hours ago, sem34090 said:

Unfortunately you might find yourself outnumbered - I'm with the host on this one! ;)

 

I personally think that there are just so many better options available: clerestory bashing and ratio bashing will generally result in a much better model for a relatively small extra outlay. Clerestories can be got cheaply enough if one can wait - I've never paid more than a fiver for one (besides the one which had a motor bogie in it).

 

My gripe with the Hornby 'model' is that it can't really be used to represent anything remotely realistic and the features it displays means it's not exactly easy to pass it off as a plausible freelance coach. The only thing I'd do with one is ditch the body and stick the chassis under an O-16.5 coach.

 

That being said, I wonder if one could fill in the gaps between the beading to represent panelling - That'd solve one of the problems at least. Then bash it a bit more to give you plausible compartment sizes, a new chassis... and you might as well have bashed a ratio kit or a clerestory.

 

And I'm with the host and you.

 

I'm not boasting, but with well over 60 years of modelling experience (with variable results from excellent to why the h*** did I bother) that benighted Hornby 4 wheel coach has always defeated any efforts I've made to do anything useful with it. It's just plain wrong in so many ways that any efforts spent rectifying them would be better spent on scratch building a complete coach. 

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Hello everyone. It's been a while. Edwardian, I really do hope you don't mind if I drop in here to ask a quick question. I am asking here because I think this is the best place to find the largest gathering of astute minds who will know the answer. There was a discussion about railway liveries somewhere in RMWeb some time ago, perhaps a year, perhaps more, where if I recall, there was discussion of the colour "lead" which I think the railway research fraternity used to think meant "grey" but which we now know means a dull brick-red colour. Is anyone here able to recall this conversation and possibly point me to the thread where it occurred? Are there any other railway research documents (HMRS?) where a similar discussion took place?

My other hobby which is wargaming is currently focussed on the English Civil Wars period and I am presently painting model artillery pieces and was wondering what colour(s) they tended to be. Apparently someone very senior in the Pike & Shot Society has written in their journal that many guns were painted with their woodwork grey because (and yes, you guessed it) he has found many references to "lead colour" in original written contracts that have survived from the 1640s. I wanted to open a correspondence with the gentleman concerned because I'm coming to the realisation that what he thinks was a grey colour was actually a red oxide colour and I wanted to be armed with the discussions that have taken place in the railway research and restoration community in recent years about the types of colours that oxide of lead will generate.

I do apologise if this is taking things off topic and for non-railway reasons but if its possible that we can address this issue of colour for the wooden carriages of cannons dating to the 1640s it would be quite the significant achievement.

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1 hour ago, runs as required said:

Has something of the look of post-war stock by Bulleid to cheer us all up after 1947 - celebrating the "New Elizabeathen Age" perhaps to replace the Queen Marys :jester:

sorry SDJR Van pre WW1 it, as  its  late and can not be arsed to look out its first build date although think it was pre 1900 

 

technical  0.8mm ply overlayed with 200g card in 2mm scale 

 

Nick B

Edited by nick_bastable
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@Martin S-C - I hardly think you need to apologise for an 'off topic' post given the thread doesn't seem to have a consistent topic!

 

Sounds like said thread might have far reaching influence! Affecting the work of civil war historians must surely be a first even around here?

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1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

Hello everyone. It's been a while. Edwardian, I really do hope you don't mind if I drop in here to ask a quick question. I am asking here because I think this is the best place to find the largest gathering of astute minds who will know the answer. There was a discussion about railway liveries somewhere in RMWeb some time ago, perhaps a year, perhaps more, where if I recall, there was discussion of the colour "lead" which I think the railway research fraternity used to think meant "grey" but which we now know means a dull brick-red colour. Is anyone here able to recall this conversation and possibly point me to the thread where it occurred? Are there any other railway research documents (HMRS?) where a similar discussion took place?

My other hobby which is wargaming is currently focussed on the English Civil Wars period and I am presently painting model artillery pieces and was wondering what colour(s) they tended to be. Apparently someone very senior in the Pike & Shot Society has written in their journal that many guns were painted with their woodwork grey because (and yes, you guessed it) he has found many references to "lead colour" in original written contracts that have survived from the 1640s. I wanted to open a correspondence with the gentleman concerned because I'm coming to the realisation that what he thinks was a grey colour was actually a red oxide colour and I wanted to be armed with the discussions that have taken place in the railway research and restoration community in recent years about the types of colours that oxide of lead will generate.

I do apologise if this is taking things off topic and for non-railway reasons but if its possible that we can address this issue of colour for the wooden carriages of cannons dating to the 1640s it would be quite the significant achievement.

 

 

I presume the period photos are a bit scarce :jester:

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1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

I do apologise if this is taking things off topic and for non-railway reasons but if its possible that we can address this issue of colour for the wooden carriages of cannons dating to the 1640s it would be quite the significant achievement.

Interesting query. I live overlooking the battle of Newburn Ford (1640), and was taught to ring bells in the church tower* on which the Scots positioned  their cannon to rout the Royalists garrisoning Newcastle castle. It resulted in the Scots gaining (temporary) control of Newcastle coal exporting revenues. 

 

While the 'Astute minds' are sleeping, I'll slip in with a comment. Possibly 'lead' might originally really mean lead, rather than the red/brown colour you mention.

I used to be very attracted to the finish that seemed to be a Crewe speciality for outdoor machinery and metal bridges. It actually glinted with what appeared to be flecks of lead close to, though from afar it appeared the usual dour Crewe darkish grey. Nevertheless it did vary between sunny and and overcast days  (and smoke).

Despite a lot of enquiries, nothing like it was procurable commercially - only what we argued over being the nearest BS 4800 colour

 

*the (late Saxon, just post conquest) church tower got heavily restored after a disastrous fire around the time of the Scottish Independence Referendum. It it might delight CA afficiandos to know that the tower was given a tiled pyramid  ... just in case?

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Regarding the colour Lead. I doubt anything was painted Red Oxide as the preferred paint in those days was Red Lead. Quite deadly as far as I know it is no longer available. It can be quite confusing  the White paint was usually Lead based too. So if a reference said 'Using Lead paint' it could be white or red lead paint and possibly others zi aam unaware about.  The Red Lead paint being toxic was a good preservative probably killed woodworm a treat just a pity about the poor painter. 

 

Don

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Red Lead and White Lead, I think used for ironwork and woodwork respectively, were joined by another paint later, Zinc Chromate, which was used on metals, but worked brilliantly on wood too. It became a big thing in the 1920s, but I think might be older than that.

 

Of course: “Recent studies have shown that not only is zinc chromate highly toxic, it is also a carcinogen.[17]”.

 

 Basically, any paint that is really good at destroying fungus and bugs is really good at destroying the natural environment, which is what fungus and bugs are, and really good at killing us. 

 

The ‘green’ alternative is to have rotten window frames!

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16 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Zinc Chromate, which was used on metals,

You used to be able to get Humbrol Zinc Chromate primer, which was (not surprisingly) a sickly chrome yellow in colour. Haven't seen it for about 40 years.

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The red lead / grey lead paint question has been discussed several times especially in relation to Great Western wagons - @MikeOxon did some interesting research and photographic experiments:

 

 

There are several broad conclusions:

  • Red Lead, a lead oxide, known to artists since antiquity as minium, has properties that make it especially effective as an anti-corrosion paint for iron and steel - it was the paint used on the Forth Bridge, for instance.
  • White Lead, lead carbonate, known to artists as flake white, has properties that make it an effective preservative for wood.
  • In railway use, up to the 1920s, white lead was used as the principal constituent for the grey paint used on wagons and on carriage roofs. The shade of grey depended on the amount of black added - generally carbon in the form of drop black from a variety of sources. Some companies painted carriage roofs white lead - LNWR for instance, also GWR, which also painted goods van roofs white.
  • White lead reacts with sulfur dioxide, a prevalent atmospheric pollutant in the pre-grouping age, forming black lead sulfate. Thus grey-painted wagons and white-painted carriage roofs became darker over time, eventually black - a chemical process, distinct from the simple accumulation of grime.
  • A number of pre-grouping companies are recorded as painting their wagons red - these include the Great Western, Great Northern, Caledonian, and South Eastern. It seems pretty certain that the pigment used in all these cases was red lead. What the motivation was for using red lead when white lead is a better preservative for woodwork is unknown.
  • Iron oxide was also used as a red pigment but rarely for wagons. It was the base colour for the Midland's crimson lake livery and was used on vehicles connected with that company's locomotive and engineering departments, such as cranes and crane match trucks, mess and tool vans, and ballast wagons and brakes (but not at all periods). It is a richer colour than red lead, the latter sometimes being described as "brick red" - I've looked at a lot of bricks and can only describe that as "unhelpful"!
  • "Lead colour" when used to describe the base colour of private owner wagons, means grey - at least as far as the Gloucester RC&W Co. was concerned. When they photographed a red wagon, their little description board would say "red".
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9 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Hello everyone. It's been a while. Edwardian, I really do hope you don't mind if I drop in here to ask a quick question. I am asking here because I think this is the best place to find the largest gathering of astute minds who will know the answer. There was a discussion about railway liveries somewhere in RMWeb some time ago, perhaps a year, perhaps more, where if I recall, there was discussion of the colour "lead" which I think the railway research fraternity used to think meant "grey" but which we now know means a dull brick-red colour. Is anyone here able to recall this conversation and possibly point me to the thread where it occurred? Are there any other railway research documents (HMRS?) where a similar discussion took place?

My other hobby which is wargaming is currently focussed on the English Civil Wars period and I am presently painting model artillery pieces and was wondering what colour(s) they tended to be. Apparently someone very senior in the Pike & Shot Society has written in their journal that many guns were painted with their woodwork grey because (and yes, you guessed it) he has found many references to "lead colour" in original written contracts that have survived from the 1640s. I wanted to open a correspondence with the gentleman concerned because I'm coming to the realisation that what he thinks was a grey colour was actually a red oxide colour and I wanted to be armed with the discussions that have taken place in the railway research and restoration community in recent years about the types of colours that oxide of lead will generate.

I do apologise if this is taking things off topic and for non-railway reasons but if its possible that we can address this issue of colour for the wooden carriages of cannons dating to the 1640s it would be quite the significant achievement.

 

Being engaged professionally in the antique arms collecting side of things I put the question to some contacts.

 

Simply put there was no standardisation in military arms in Britain really until the early 18th century regarding such things as finish etc. The people raising armies were more concerned that things like calibre were adhered to which is far more important.

 

The reality was that of any sort finish etc. prior to that was generally up to the colonel who commanded the regiments or whatever. The English Civil War was from the point of arms use etc. quite chaotic and involved forces raised all over Britain. The gun carriages could have been grey, but in general terms given the rush to raise armies and equipment they were probably whatever the colour the wood was that they were made of. Metal was generally left bright i.e. not blued or browned. Metal parts on carriages might have been painted, or not, depending on the whim of whichever colonel raised the particular unit and in effect paid for it. If he was short of cash he probably wouldn't bother as the raw materials i.e. wood was cheap and iron parts were turned out by blacksmiths so they'd be in whatever colour they left the forge.

 

As for the idea of a lead colour - a lot of timber weathers out to a grey colour. I was looking at a Dutch painting from the period which shows some artillery in action, the carriages appear to be a brown shade - like wood.

 

So despite the various opinions I'd say go with wood because after a campaign in the open that's what the colour would (pardon the pun) have been.

 

 

Edited by Malcolm 0-6-0
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Yes, I think ZC disappeared from the general market c1980. It was used as a primer on outdoor electrical equipment among many other things, and I remember it being withdrawn, and everyone in the electrical engineering department trying to “acquire” large tins of it for domestic use before it went out of stock at the stores!*

 

It was the number one window-frame paint among those in the know.

 

Having delved, it is a lot older than the 1920s; I think it might have originated in the great industrial chemical expansion of the 1870s, but only come into very widespread use once the lead-based paints were found guilty of all sorts of horrors and particularly as aluminium substrates became common (I can’t recall whether it etches, or whether something is added to it, or the chemistry is deliberately left ‘hungry’ when it is made).
 

*This was at about the same time that a BR CM&EE was dismissed, stripped of his pension, and spent a period detained at Her Majesty’s pleasure because he had failed to spot and deal with a huge outbreak of corruption in the rolling stock department which, among other things, involved the systematic misappropriation of paint from the stores system. Strange things happened in the 1970s!

 

 

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