Castle Aching

[monkeysarefun]

26 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Pay back for Mel Gibson.

 

Just wait until you lot want to do another series of Catweazle and ask us to lend you loveable Charles 'Bud' Tingwell to reprise his role as stern but fair  farmer Bennet, you'll be in for a surprise.

 

Anyway, he has since gone on to much  greater things, playing gramps in Charlie The Wonder Dog.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[wagonman]

27 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

All this is very problematic, but the problems, to my mind, all seem to flow from the modern insistence upon judging the past by present day standards.  Again, I don't see this as a useful tool to understand the past.  If we do not understand the past, we cannot draw meaningful lessons from it. 

 

 

But surely historians have always judged the past by the standards of their own times – what else could they do? When I was studying history one of the texts I had to read was Pieter Geyl's analysis of the changing attitudes to Napoleon Bonaparte during the 130 or so years since Waterloo (he was writing 'Napoleon For and Against' in the mid 1940s).

[Regularity]

54 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

think this is a classic case of two wrongs not making a right

True, but three lefts do.

[St Enodoc]

47 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

All this is very problematic, but the problems, to my mind, all seem to flow from the modern insistence upon judging the past by present day standards.

I consider this to be the heart of the matter. Furthermore, there is a tendency to judge other cultures/civilisations, even in the present day, by the values of so-called Western civilisation. Neither of these is a Good Thing, in my view.

 

50 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

We are complicit in it, much the way that the Eighteenth Century English tea drinker was with the slave trade, every time they added sugar. 

Where did the tea itself come from?

 

51 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

However, the current trend is that offence is in the eye of the offended

Often, it seems that offence is in the eye of those who hold that they see it on behalf of others, who may or may not see it for themselves.

[Hroth]

5 minutes ago, Regularity said:

True, but three lefts do.

And leave you feeling rather dizzy.... 

 

35 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Anyway, he has since gone on to much  greater things, playing gramps in Charlie The Wonder Dog.

Bring back Skippy!

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Pay back for Mel Gibson.

 

You'd need a whole chain of chippies for a year and STILL not get payback for Mel Gibson!

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

I think this is a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.  I think we just have to accept that post-colonial societies and their diaspora are only really going to talk about the colonial power's 'wrong'. 

 

There is some justification for the apparent imbalance you highlight, however. There is a logical argument that demand would have driven supply, so much more black-on-black enslavement and sale would have resulted as a result of the insatiable demand of the planters in the West Indies and the Carolinas etc. Now, to my mind that still leaves the Africans involved making bad moral choices by our standards, and, I suspect, given that conquest and enslavement was something they seem to have done anyway, one might suppose that there was little reluctance or any moral qualm on their part.  Seeing this pressure to supply as part of the exploitation of native population economically more powerful Europeans is no doubt how it is argued these days.

 

 

 

I think you slightly misunderstand me. I'm an archaeologist and historian by trade (MA, Ph.D etc.). As much as we would like the power, moral judgements about past behaviour are somewhat fruitless as the present can't change the past. No more than a lawyer can step back and undo the events that see his client in the dock. But after viewing the results of past actions we can change our behaviour to create better future outcomes but that's all. So even if I choose to make a moral judgement I am forced to admit that while I may approve or disapprove I can't do anything about the past. However what I can do is point out the means by which events impose influences on other events according to the historical record, which may perhaps help create something better for the future. So the fact that I find slavery repugnant in any form is for the purposes of the argument irrelevant and diverts from the more important understanding of the economic interactions by all the participants that sustained it.

 

But more importantly this emphasises that those participants did not see it in our terms, and which leads to what irritates me about the current breast beating behaviour that it is simply repeating fruitless public angst that I have seen many times before. Perhaps I am getting old and jaded but the current mass leap by celebrities and other wannabees onto the BLM movement etc. (which needs no such defence because of the events that gave birth to it) is simply a way for these rather empty headed people to establish some money making credibility amongst their followers. I fully expect that the truly awful Kardashians will publicly eschew tanning as it disrespects those people whose genetic inheritance gives them a natural tan.

 

That is my overall attitude as a historian and archaeologist - and I am experienced enough to expect no variation in these cyclical outbursts of public furore. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

        

Edited June 27, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0
clarity

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

But surely historians have always judged the past by the standards of their own times – what else could they do? When I was studying history one of the texts I had to read was Pieter Geyl's analysis of the changing attitudes to Napoleon Bonaparte during the 130 or so years since Waterloo (he was writing 'Napoleon For and Against' in the mid 1940s).

 

To be fair, it's a pretty dull read that book.

 

9 minutes ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

I think you slightly misunderstand me. I'm an archaeologist and historian by trade (MA, Ph.D etc.). As much as we would like the power, moral judgements about past behaviour are somewhat fruitless as the present can't change the past. No more than a lawyer can step back and undo the events that see his client in the dock. But after viewing the results of past actions we can change our behaviour to create better future outcomes but that's all. So even if I choose to make a moral judgement I am forced to admit that while I may approve or disapprove I can't do anything about the past. However what I can do is point out the means by which events impose influences on other events according to the historical record, which may perhaps help create something better for the future. So the fact that I find slavery repugnant in any form is for the purposes of the argument irrelevant and diverts from the more important understanding of the economic interactions by all the participants that sustained it.

 

But more importantly ignores that those participants did not see it in our terms which is what irritates me about the current breast beating behaviour that it is simply repeating public angst that I have seen many times before. Perhaps I am getting old and jaded but the current mass leap by celebrities and other wannabees onto the BLM movement etc. (which needs no such defence because of the events that gave birth to it) is simply a way for these rather empty headed people to establish some money making credibility amongst their followers. I fully expect that the truly awful Kardashians will publicly eschew tanning as it disrespects those people whose genetic inheritance gives them a natural tan.

 

That is my overall attitude as a historian and archaeologist - and I am experienced enough to expect no variation in these cyclical outbursts of public furore. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.         

 

No, I understand and agree.

 

I'm merely commenting on the moral judgments that will continue to be made.

 

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I'm merely commenting on the moral judgments that will continue to be made.

 

 

I'm rather afraid that in today's climate of band wagon jumping the moral judgements are a bit like Groucho Marx's principles - "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0
one little letter, can you guess which one?

[Nearholmer]

IMO this is a discussion about the froth, rather than the beer. All the agonising about the interpretation of history, and all the band-wagon jumping, gets talked about because it’s easy for us all to have opinions about: the here and now issues that cause it all to come to the surface are the substance that needs to be dealt with, and they are a sight more difficult to talk about.

[drmditch]

14 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

The trade thrived because the local rulers were happy to do all the work of conquering, capturing and enslaving because that was a regular part of their pre-contact relations with their own neighbours. The local chiefs made a lot of wealth out of happily selling off their captured neighbours because that what's they normally did. The same practices were integral to most societies in the world, despite many historical and current attempts to recast these historical peoples as epitomies of the Rousseauian ideal. Native Americans regularly raided fellow tribes for slaves for their own use, as did aboriginal Australians who raided other tribes for women. In New Zealand the Maoris were masters of it - the list is endless. Everywhere one looks at the available ethnographic accounts the practice is endemic. 

 

I had resolved not to post more on this issue.

But....

Humans are indeed horrible to fellow humans. The trade from the area of Verdun in the 10th century in castrated children is merely an example of that.

The differences between 'chattel', ie 'commercial' slavery and the 'domestic' slavery practiced in many societies are discussed in many of the books on this subject.

However, the genocide carried out in central America and the Caribbean when attempting to force the native population into hard labour, which then required their replacement by the hardy and tough peoples from western Africa led to some  12 to 16 million people enduring the horrors of the middle passage and all the degradation that followed.

This was industrial; technology-enabled (the three-masted cannon-armed sailing vessel); state-sponsored; religiously approved..... one could carry on and on.

(Yes, there were other rigs and by the 1850s even steamships)

 

This was created and maintained largely by people from Western Europe.

Our immediate ancestors.

 

As regards what happened to Sub-Saharan Africa -

 - Does demand not create its own supply?

- What happened to the emergent societies and civilisations of the 15th and 16th centuries?

- Were those African people who thought that the 'White Men' needed all these people so that they could eat them, ultimately not near an uncomfortable truth?

 

There was a good post on Facebook this morning.

(I don't look at, like, or trust  FB very much.)

 

A close relative is in pain, and asks 'Do you love me'.

Wouild you reply, 'We must love everybody' ? 

 

A friend is upset and tells you that their father has died.

Would you reply, 'Everybody's parents die' ?

 

Now I must not look at or post any more on this subject or I will have to avoid RMWeb a well!

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by drmditch

[Northroader]

In all the talk of slavery these days no one seems to want to mention the parallel thread happening at the same time, the trafficking of people living in the British Isles, captured as slaves by Muslims in North Africa.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Barbary-Pirates-English-Slaves/

Edited June 27, 2020 by Northroader

[Buhar]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Where did the tea itself come from?

In the eighteenth century, from China and the north Far East.  The British were initially customers of Dutch traders.  So possibly, the tea market at that time was relatively uncontaminated by slavery.  British merchants then moved production to India and Sri Lanka.  The two bases for the various words used around the world for the beverage, "tee" and "cha" depend on which bit of China, Mandarin or Cantonese speaking, their early deliveries came from.  We ended up using both, tea and to a lesser degree, char.

 

Alan 

[Edwardian]

I think this discussion has simply demonstrated the truth that applying modern mores to historical situations is a waste of time.  Nothing useful comes of it from the historian's perspective, rather, it seems bound to get in the way of understanding the subject.

 

People weaponise history, and while we may have more sympathy with those who are troubled by historical injustices than those who seek to use history to justify less palatable views, ultimately I am growing exceedingly bored of the white middle class burden of incessant and perpetual self-laceration.

 

Lead a good life in the here and now. What more can you do?

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

In all the talk of slavery these days no one seems to want to mention the parallel thread happening at the same time, the trafficking of people living in the British Isles, captured as slaves by Muslims in North Africa.

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Barbary-Pirates-English-Slaves/

 

Ooh, we know an opera about that, don't we Boys and Girls?

 

Complete with a chorus of eunuchs singing bass!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

I've listened to this before, it's very... unsettling. The result of castration is certainly what one might expect, but the pitch is so childlike yet the voice behind it is undeniably that of an adult. 

 

Eunuchs have always been an interesting part of social history as a class of their own, I've found, in my brief research in the past. 

 

Do you mean the wax disc recordings of the last of the castrati - the Vatican retaining the practice much later than the opera industry?

 

I find Michael Chance in whatever very tight trousers he must wear to do what he does much less unsettling! 

[Regularity]

In the past, some good things happened.

But also a lot of bad things, which we are still trying to sort out.

In the present, some good things are happening. 
But also some really bad things, which hopefully the future generations will be able to sort out. 
If we don’t ruin the planet for them first.

[nick_bastable]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Do you mean the wax disc recordings of the last of the castrati - the Vatican retaining the practice much later than the opera industry?

 

I find Michael Chance in whatever very tight trousers he must wear to do what he does much less unsettling! 

allow me to move the topic away from such things and risking crossing threads 

 

 

Nick B

[Schooner]

The good: Rossini overtures, thank you. Typing with one hand, conducting with the other and singing along with the double basses. Making a hash of all three but enjoying myself

 

The bad: Angua in Going Postal. A mis-step in an otherwise strong adaptation, poorly related to her in-book (true?) character.

 

The ugly: Hell, where even to begin...

 

Restorative gin and tonic, anyone?

[brianusa]

It is now fashionable for anyone with a perceived injustice to demonstrate,  He/She will soon be joined by like minded demonstrators who will gather those who otherwise would have no interest in their situation.  Case in point, Seattle as some may know now has a zone on Capital Hill occupied by a sundry collection of individuals whose actual cause is lost, being far from the initial protest.  The local police station has been taken over and vandalised, local businesses  graffitied and at least two murders have occurred.  The street has been blocked off and protesters have prevented city workers from entering to clean it up.

    The police and city are wary because of the recent publicity as any effort to ameliorate the situation would inflame the protest movement, leading to further problems.

  The insane are running the asylum!

          Brian.

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, nick_bastable said:

allow me to move the topic away from such things and risking crossing threads 

 

 

Nick B

 

Too much of a caricature I fear, Angua has glossy hair (Thud, in conversation with Sally after the Dwarf tunnels business), the eye makeup makes her look more Undead than Werewolf, more like Reg Shoe if you get my drift, and all she seems to do is sniff and snarl, which really isn't in her "Human" character.

 

I'm supposing the Watchman adjacent to her right shoulder is supposed to be Nobby Nobbs?

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Restorative gin and tonic, anyone?

 

I'll have a bottle of the Ale de Jour, if I may?

 

Speaking of Castrati, may I put forward "The Alteration", by Kingsley Amis?

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

Is this better?

 

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Buhar said:

So possibly, the tea market at that time was relatively uncontaminated by slavery. 

Possibly.

[nick_bastable]

well at least its moved the theme away from the lose of gentlemen bits  I hope

 

Mr Mayor any progress on railways ?

 

Nick B

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

4 hours ago, brianusa said:

It is now fashionable for anyone with a perceived injustice to demonstrate,  He/She will soon be joined by like minded demonstrators who will gather those who otherwise would have no interest in their situation.  Case in point, Seattle as some may know now has a zone on Capital Hill occupied by a sundry collection of individuals whose actual cause is lost, being far from the initial protest.  The local police station has been taken over and vandalised, local businesses  graffitied and at least two murders have occurred.  The street has been blocked off and protesters have prevented city workers from entering to clean it up.

    The police and city are wary because of the recent publicity as any effort to ameliorate the situation would inflame the protest movement, leading to further problems.

  The insane are running the asylum!

          Brian.

 

Certainly the policing situation has parallels here in Australia. While we don't have a Seattle type situation in the cities we do have similar policing problems in the remote settlements and other indigenous communities. We have the paradoxical situation where many indigenous people just want to live in peaceful communities, as do we all, but see this desire overwhelmed by criminal and generally anti-social behaviour by minorities within the communities. When police intervene there is a sudden upsurge of criticism of the police by mainly outside groups claiming that they are once again behaving like colonial oppressors unsympathetic to the problems of our indigenous people.

 

It is a no win situation where a minority of indigenous people who, in the normal run of things are little different to the criminal underclass in our urban centres, are creating a false view of our indigenous people. These small groups of intractable criminals and misfits come to dominate and harm their communities while garnering support from outside non-indigenous groups who, in their own communities, would never consider making our urban non-indigenous criminals worthy of political support. The voices of sensible indigenous people in the remote communities seeking better lives are thereby drowned out by non-indigenous and outside activists who for political reasons which serve their own interests, deliberately and mistakenly lump both the law-abiding majority and the criminal minority together as having the same social concerns.

 

We are moving closer to the situation where some of the remote communities have become no go zones for law enforcement because the issue has become politicised to the point that police are unwilling to intervene knowing that whatever steps they take will be heavily censured. Also we have had for some years a great deal of concern about the higher rates of indigenous incarceration compared with non-indigenous Australians. Yet again however it is a problem which is distorted by the systemic break down of social controls amongst a small percentage of our indigenous population. Oddly it is never compared with similar spikes of localised incarceration rates for non-indigenous people from specific suburban areas in our main cities. The latter it appears is a criminal issue to be ignored by social activists, while the former is an easily identifiable politically attractive cause for the same activists. Whilst I am not trying to sound like some ultra conservative old fogey, I do think that at times the political activists involved might find that a little introspection regarding their own behaviour might help defuse what is becoming an increasingly harmful problem for all of us.                    

[Annie]

I wake up from being asleep for nine hours and find the world is still going mad.  No wonder I prefer being in the dreamworld these days, - at least things are relatively sensible there. 

It seems to me that human beings have been treating other human beings badly ever since history began (and most probably before then too) especially if there is money (or local unit of exchange) to be made.  I think this state of affairs will continue until somehow we either  manage to destroy the earth or a massive natural event (meteor, super volcano & etc) destroys it for us.

I've given up on social media (Farcebook, Twit et al) and I scarcely bother to look at on-line news sites since in general all they do is make me very depressed and upset.  For whatever reason people have taken to the streets lately to protest and/or act badly it's a very foolish thing to do during a global pandemic and even more people are going to die.

It's not that I don't care, - I do, - and that's the problem for me and the very reason why I feel so depressed and upset.  So my only defense is to give up on spending far too much time scanning the latest news reports.  Doom scanning is what it's called apparently.  I can't help feeling that things were better when news arrived six months out of date by by sailing ship.  The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is a two edged sword and being able to immediately find out about the latest horror/disaster/atrocity within minutes of it happening on the other side of the world is not necessarily good and useful for anyone's state of mental health.