Castle Aching

[DonB]

 

"   Donw said:

we damn near bankrupted the country fighting Hitler. "

 

My daughter had a German pen friend, they exchanged visits in the 1970's when they were both 15 years old.

The young German girl said, more than once, that what was needed was "another war to limit the population of the Earth" !

The friendship did not survive the transition to higher education years. I don't think she was bright enough to make any inroads into the political world .

[Regularity]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Not sure about "we". "Rooseveldt" might be nearer the mark. The dissolution of the British Empire was one of his war aims. Churchill, unlike most of his contemporaries, understood that that was the price that would have to be paid.

One of Hitler’s gravest misjudgments, that we would not sacrifice the Empire for the sake of a European war. The Kaiser made the same error... ...isn’t there a saying that those who fail to heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. (Like establishing military control over Europe but not the UK, and attacking Russia?)

 

To be fair to FDR, this wasn’t his personal policy nor was it directed particularly against the UK. The USA had come to view all European empires with suspicion (a lot of US citizens were either emigres from Europe, or the first generation descendants thereof, and looking to escape oppression), and its avowed foreign policy at the turn of the 19th into the 20th century was to oppose (peacefully, if possible) and dismantle them: the British Empire was still there after WWI, and still much bigger than any other country’s. The idea of becoming the “World’s police force” was anathema to the US populace, as Wilson 9and the League of Nations) found to his cost, and it was only the realisation of just what a threat the USSR was becoming to the new found wealth and might of the USA that forced them to be more belligerent after WWII, leading to the World Bank, UN, NATO, the Korean and Vietnamese wars, the invasion of Grenada, etc...

 

China has chosen a less combative path than unaffordable military expenditure, and to paraphrase a well-known saying, “when you have the production of capitalist markets by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow”.

Hence how Trump gets in, how Huawei get acknowledgement from the UK government (the US tech giants fell asleep at the 5G wheel, and the Chinese overtook them and stole a march, which is the real issue). After “defeating Communism” (in the USSR) the USA looked for an opportunity to be able to step back a bit from looking after European defence, and became isolationist again. 
 

75% of the President of the USA’s job is foreign affairs, and quite a bit of the rest is defence of the Nation (not individual states). Yet if they were to campaign on the real issues, they would lose. So three-word banalities come to the fore: “Make America Great”, or “Four more years”. Or the classic example of a three-word slogan from someone who doesn’t really understand, “Make America Great Again”.

 

56 minutes ago, DonB said:

The young German girl said, more than once, that what was needed was "another war to limit the population of the Earth" !

And failing that monstrous eventuality, we have flu-like pandemics doing what viruses do best: exploiting the opportunities created by too many people travelling too far and too often, enabling the spread of disease and infection.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, jcredfer said:

 

Casually referred to as "The National Debt".

 

Julian

 

We had that before the war.

Capitalism is predicated on one nation being willing to accumulate an enormous debt. It is the imbalance between economies which creates the dynamics necessary for economic “growth”. 

[Regularity]

15 hours ago, Hroth said:

Truth will make you fret

I find the availability of a jeweller’s saw helps with that.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

17 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

And oftimes, the Truth will make you fret...

 

 

I might point out that to a person with a lisp, truth is simply the means of hernia relief.  

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0
Guess

[Andy Kirkham]

On 27/06/2020 at 11:17, Edwardian said:

 

As I pointed out reference Colston, it takes many decades before the more progressive Brits start to argue the immorality of the slave trade. Once the Brits become Woke on the issue, do we get to point fingers at native populations or East African Arab slavers who have yet to catch up?  You could draw an analogy with the varied international responses to climate change.

 

 

One thing about the Colston statue is that it can't be defended on the grounds that people in those days had different values to ours. The Victorians of 1895 when it was erected would have claimed to deplore slavery as much as we do today, and were proud that Britain had abolished the slave trade - as shown by the monuments they put up  to William Wiberforce.

 

I don't know whether it was ignorance or deception that allowed them to honour Colston as a philanthropist whie ignoring the source of his wealth, but it was certainly a falsification of history at the time.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Andy Kirkham

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

22 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

And in the original (sort of).....

 

 

 

Yes I can see it might have reached the top 40 in 1415 but to me it somehow lacks the driving rhythm of Mick and the boys singing Street Fighting Man. Others might differ. 

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

One thing about the Colston statue is that it can't be defended on the grounds that people in those days had different values to ours. The Victorians of 1895 when it was erected would have claimed to deplore slavery as much as we do today, and were proud that Britain had abolished the slave trade - as shown by the monuments they put up  to William Wiberforce.

 

I don't know whether it was ignorance or deception that allowed them to honour Colston as a philanthropist whie ignoring the source of his wealth, but it was certainly a falsification of history at the time.

 

 

 

 

I think, though, that goes to the heart of what has changed.  In 1895 people were evidently happy to overlook or turn a blind eye, or, perhaps, think 'well, they did slavery in those days, but look at all the good he did'.

 

The US is still prepared to strike that balance in honouring slave-owner George Washington. 

 

People now, particularly the people of an ethnically diverse Bristol, were not prepared to overlook because, to them, it must have been a prominent slap in the face that got in the way of healing and moving on from the unpleasantness in the past.  How much more distressing it must seem in the context of continued instances of racial injustice. 

 

Not seeing it as an issue was a luxury of the circumstances of 1895.  Now it would be insensitive.  So the retention of the symbol is insensitive.  I do not think it realistic to argue or pretend otherwise. Some symbols just resonate too much to be ignored. 

 

Where I part company with some of what is being demanded is the idea of waging a sort of kulturkampf on the past and establishing a Year 0.      

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

to me it somehow lacks the driving rhythm of Mick and the boys singing Street Fighting Man.

 

Not surprising, Agincourt was fought in a boggy field. 

[webbcompound]

4 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Yes I can see it might have reached the top 40 in 1415 but to me it somehow lacks the driving rhythm of Mick and the boys singing Street Fighting Man. Others might differ. 

Although there are much more rocky versions available (I've always sung it at the same pace as the Young Tradition. The middle ages was probably just as keen on heavy drumming as we are, but playing on an organ progs it up a bit, even whilst keeping a slow pace

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by webbcompound

[Hroth]

Hmmmm....

 

Playing the Agincourt Song/Carol/Hymn on a French organ in France?

 

I almost linked the New Tradition version (accompanied by a good chunk of the Early Music Consort!).   Its a good rousing performance with David Munrow tootling away on the shawm, I think I eventually chose the more "courtly" version because it had subtitles! 

 

 

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The US is still prepared to strike that balance in honouring slave-owner George Washington. 

I think you have the US problem neatly encapsulated there.

You could add Jefferson (very ambiguous about it all!) and a few more of the founding fathers, too.

 

We have had good monarchs and bad monarchs, but we didn't have any real say (as a people, some notable families excluded) in who came next. This results in us being able to form our own opinions about major figures in our history prior to Parliament gaining the upper hand (and for some time thereafter, as for a long period power was vested in the nobility/gentry) and make judgements that change from time to time.

 

Washington has always struck me as an excellent self-publicist, and perhaps to believe in his own publicity (compared to, say, the second President, John Adams - honest but a shade pompous). He has achieved iconic status (almost to the point of deification) which overshadows the achievements of others as well as his own faults, and to criticise him is seen by many of the loud voices on the "alt-right" as criticism of the USA. I suspect that failing to criticise him to the point of damnation is also seen as a failing amongst the more extreme elements on the opposite wing of the spectrum, too.

 

I have recently been introduced to the Netflix TV series "Dear White People", which is actually rather thought provoking and highlights some of the intractable problems faced by the USA over all this at the moment.

[brianusa]

In these United States police carry guns; they have since their inception.  The local populace also have guns.  Guns are glorified, - gangster movies, Westerns, not forgetting  John Wayne winning wars for the Alamo to Vietnam.  Politicians spout First Amendment rights as a matter of course as do their constituents.  So criminals have guns as well and when they come in contact with police, sometimes the inevitable occurs.  And when the criminal is black, unarmed or not, protests erupt as a matter of course and go on and on and on, until the protest is lost among all the other groups that have joined the parade from abortion protesters and gay rights. 

HEADLINE NEWS. Police have shot an unarmed black man.........................  Again?

     Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm .......

 

Can we talk about long-defunct railways for a minute?
 

This ought to interest members of CAPC, although it’s not exactly light bedtime reading http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/4941/1/Thesis - David Tuner - PhD - For binders.pdf

 

I stumbled upon while swotting-up on the LSWR, which I’m now beginning to understand a lot better than I did.

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, brianusa said:

In these United States police carry guns; they have since their inception.  The local populace also have guns.  Guns are glorified, - gangster movies, Westerns, not forgetting  John Wayne winning wars for the Alamo to Vietnam.  Politicians spout First Amendment rights as a matter of course as do their constituents.  So criminals have guns as well and when they come in contact with police, sometimes the inevitable occurs.  And when the criminal is black, unarmed or not, protests erupt as a matter of course and go on and on and on, until the protest is lost among all the other groups that have joined the parade from abortion protesters and gay rights. 

HEADLINE NEWS. Police have shot an unarmed black man.........................  Again?

     Brian.

Hi Brian,  you leave me a little confused.  The first three lines seem to be an observation of  the current situation for the USA population.  Likewise your observation that some criminals carry guns, resulting in the inevitable, also seems to be factual observation.

 

Thereafter your post claims that when the criminal is black unarmed or not protests erupt........

 

You finish with " HEADLINE NEWS. Police have shot an unarmed black man.........................  Again?"

 

My question is on the meaning of your finishing comment - which are you commenting on?  Is it the unwarranted reporting of a black man being shot dead which is the problem, or the report of yet another unarmed person shot by the police,  which may become lost in the mass of other protesters, about police behaviour?

 

Julian

 

[Annie]

3 hours ago, brianusa said:

HEADLINE NEWS. Police have shot an unarmed black man.........................  Again?

New Zealand has or until recently had a travel advisory warning Maori and Pacific Island citizens that in some states in the USA there's a high risk that they could suffer death at the hands of the police.

 

But enough of the Empire of the Mad and let's talk about something less depressing.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Annie
fumble brain

[monkeysarefun]

14 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

The Victorians of 1895 when it was erected would have claimed to deplore slavery as much as we do today, and were proud that Britain had abolished the slave trade

 

Apart from 'black-birding',  or  the" indentured servant'  arguably  the slave trade under another name...

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-17/blackbirding-australias-history-of-kidnapping-pacific-islanders/8860754

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-24/townsville-statue-whitewash-slave-history-islanders-say/8838984

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[brianusa]

Kevin, old railways seem much simpler than current affairs!   Any railways, seem to have disappeared as the topic is hijacked or otherwise changed.  If anyone can add to my knowledge of the Liskeard and Caradon it would be appreciated and should anyone be interested, my County of Bedford with five up has been running on the main line for a few sessions, while my shortline Mallet has a five car freight on the Mountain Division.  All in the same layout!

   Brian.

[jcredfer]

4 minutes ago, Annie said:

New Zealand has or until recently had a travel advisory warning Maori and Pacific Island citizens that in some states in the USA they there's a high risk that they could suffer death at the hands of the police.

 

But enough of the Empire of the Mad and let's talk about something less depressing.

 

I'm planning this year's holiday...  I have enjoyed many months travel in the US and working with their military for 5 years,   however, given the current situation, the possible destinations are NZ, or remain somewhere in the UK.....  

 

Julian

 

[monkeysarefun]

1 minute ago, jcredfer said:

 

I'm planning this year's holiday...  I have enjoyed many months travel in the US and working with their military for 5 years,   however, given the current situation, the possible destinations are NZ, or remain somewhere in the UK.....  

 

Julian

 

 

 

Ulikely to  be let into NZ this year, only likely international travel down here will be between OZ and NZ if any.

[jcredfer]

3 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

Ulikely to  be let into NZ this year, only likely international travel down here will be between OZ and NZ if any.

 

Sadly, i have to accept the sense in the NZ Gov't position and wish you all well on the back of it.  I will await the time when it is safe to visit you without bringing unwanted livestock.

 

Julian

 

[Annie]

11 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Ulikely to  be let into NZ this year, only likely international travel down here will be between OZ and NZ if any.

With COVID-19 still raging like a firestorm in some countries NZ is only allowing citizens to cross the border with 14 days supervised quarantine and testing for all arrivals.  The border will certainly stay closed for the rest of the year and then after that it will depend on what the situation is with the rate of infections overseas.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Annie
More information

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

18 minutes ago, Annie said:

With COVID-19 still raging like a firestorm in some countries NZ is only allowing citizens to cross the border with 14 days supervised quarantine and testing for all arrivals.  The border will certainly stay closed for the rest of the year and then after that it will depend on what the situation is with the rate of infections overseas.

 

Well here in Australia in my home state of Victoria we've just had a spike in infections with double digit increases for the past week or so. These are in specific municipal areas in suburban Melbourne with the total population involved nearly 2 million. Melbourne's population is over 5 million so there is cause for worry. Mostly the causes seem to be undiagnosed infections being passed on in families where English skills are low and the warnings are not being heeded combined with the usual idiots who think social distancing is a challenge to be avoided.

 

This sudden spike is disappointing because up until now Victoria had, on a per capita basis, seemed to have contained the problem and things were beginning to open up again. Our experience might serve as a warning to those countries that have let restrictions ease despite the continuance of the disease.     

[runs as required]

Oh Dear!

We do still seem to be some way from a  p.p. new normal.

I've just had my first post Lockdown trip from Gateshead (mid-May top deaths scorer)  to ...

guess where ... wait for it ...

...  Leicester  - current high scoring new SPIKE 

2

As for statue bashing - is the word  "iconoclast"  now generally taken to be a pejorative attribute?

It used to mean "willing to question existing norms"; now smashing icons equates to  "mindless terrorist vandalism"

 

 

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

52 minutes ago, runs as required said:

Oh Dear!

We do still seem to be some way from a  p.p. new normal.

I've just had my first post Lockdown trip from Gateshead (mid-May top deaths scorer)  to ...

guess where ... wait for it ...

...  Leicester  - current high scoring new SPIKE 

2

As for statue bashing - is the word  "iconoclast"  now generally taken to be a pejorative attribute?

It used to mean "willing to question existing norms"; now smashing icons equates to  "mindless terrorist vandalism"

 

 

 

 

Well those original iconoclasts were responsible for the mindless defacing of statues and other artwork because they offended the iconoclast's idiotic religious beliefs. My view of them is that I hope these religious vandals are now burning in whatever their mindless belief deemed hell. As for the current ones I'm firmly of the opinion that many of them are just following whatever it is now deemed fashionable to riot about. One need only watch the behaviour of those deemed celebrities as they desperately compete for inclusion just so they won't suffer financial loss or, shock horror, become overnight irrelevancies. It seems like only yesterday that the cause du jour was the Me Too fashion now it's the BLM fashion.

 

Do I sound cynical? well I am - so much towards progress and better behaviour is undone by these dedicated followers of fashion. Some idiotic singer changed his/her name from Antebellum to something forgettable - mind you I'd never heard of Antebellum at all. Antebellum is a perfectly legitimate word long used to describe features of the American southern states that existed before the Civil War. Changing your stage name isn't going to erase the tragedy of slavery from history. The Dixie Chicks became plain Chicks and then publicly thanked some other singer whose stage name was Chicks for allowing them to use the name.

 

Here in Australia a company that made a craft beer called Colonial Ale publicly announced that in deference to the BLM movement they were removing the name Colonial because of its connotations. They forgot that alcohol is the greatest single health danger in our indigenous communities so perhaps instead of renaming their product their most effective deed should have been going into the soft drink business. Gawd help us - we Australians, all of us white black or whatever, lived in colonies in the 19th century. I suppose there's a movement in Germany to rename Cologne because that comes from the Latin Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium because it was a Roman colony.     

 

As for the plague I can only say that we humans are its best friend. People seem to be treating it like a newly acquired kitten or puppy that they are just eager to thrust on everyone so they can really really appreciate its adorable fluffy cute ways. I had to make a trip to a big shopping centre near me today (American readers - what you call a mall), and spent a harrowing few minutes trying to avoid other patrons who seem to think that social distancing just isn't their preferred way of life.

 

Rant over.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0
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