Popular Post Edwardian Posted October 12, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 12, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, St Enodoc said: I will be frank. I object to the continual insinuation that anyone who supports Boris Johnson, Tony Abbott or Donald Trump is a moron. That's all. I sympathise with that view, and am glad you gave it. I was tempted to quip that it is those leaders, not the people who vote for them, that are the morons; as Simon has summarised, there are many differing reasons why people like that get voted in, not least sometimes for lack of a palatable alternative. But, however much some may dislike these leaders, I doubt any of them are morons (though sometimes his tweets make that a very hard conclusion to avoid in one case). Here, in the interests of full disclosure, I will say that I do not think of myself as remotely left-wing or socialist, pace those here who are, but, as I have hinted, I am one of those who, in such times of polarisation find myself rather exposed, alone and unheard upon the blasted heath of the centre ground and unrepresented by either major party. I say this because I have no axe to grind against the parties of the leaders mentioned, though I suspect in the case of the UK, and possibly the others, the party in question has its least attractive wing to the fore and there seem to be very few grown ups in the room as a result. The thing that I suspect most people here, on CA, coalesce around is a deep suspicion of populist politics and its results. That is often a thing of the right, but not necessarily so. If there had been a Corbyn-Momentum regime in the UK, I suspect I'd have quite a bit there to concern me. Another point worth making is that the Left has been very successful in dominating the moral high-ground as the only People of Conscience in politics. The ruthless commissar politics of purist movements such as Militant Tendency and Momentum exposes this as not necessarily true, while there are many very moderate, sensible, compassionate people in right of centre UK politics. That even looks odd as I type, which shows how pervasive is the myth that all good people are on the left and the only reason to vote for the Nasty Party is hard-headed pragmatism. I add this not to Labour-bash, but because I think there is a an imbalance in our perceptions that is worth mentioning. Returning to populists. I do have a problem with them. There are a number of things that come with populist politics that we've seen here in the UK that concern me. Things that bother me are: - Undermining mainstream media and giving a false equivalence between things that are properly reported and verified to the standards of reputable journalism on the one hand, and any emotive or statistically questionable garbage I, Great Leader, and my cronies, choose to spout. Thus, it is a matter of concern that the wing of the Conservative Party now in charge clearly is in the process of breaking the BBC. This makes it much harder for voters to evaluate the situation. - Refusing to engage with mainstream media in a traditional way and thus being less accountable. In between elections, and elsewhere than the floor of the House, politicians need to be interrogated on what they are doing and saying in a public forum. At difficult (for him) times, the present Prime Minister has had sustained periods of simply hiding from the media and indeed Parliament. Minsters are seldom available for what might be problem interviews and I believe this government boycotted R4's flagship World at One. This all breaks the unwritten rule and convention that Ministers make themselves available to face the public. Yes, we still see them, but the government is attempting to constrain and dictate the terms of its engagement with the more reputable media platforms. - Tribalism. Always a problem in British politics. Here it is no longer strictly down party divisions, as many Labour 'Redwall' MPs recently discovered to their cost (echoes of 'Democrats for Regan', perhaps?). The divide is more that of the 'culture war' in such cases. But tribal it is. This means that people on both sides of the divide tend to accept what is said by those they support. This is a gift for a populist, because you only have to say something, anything, in answer to a damning point - any falsely equivalent garbage seems to do - and you've rebutted the opposition in the eyes of your supporters. Thus tribalism and polarisation suits populists, so my third problem with them is that they encourage division. - Populists like a narrative whereby they are trying to give the people what they want but there are vested interests in the way; the shadowy elite who would deny the people. Skulduggery is often hinted at. Classic populist reliance on a Fifth Column or Enemy Within that justifies extreme measures. In the UK the thing the People are said to want is BREXIT, though I tend to think of this rather as the obsession of a particularly virulent wing of one political party. Whether you think BREXIT was a good idea or not is not the point. It's irrelevant now because it's happened. The point, the only point, is about what damage the government was prepared to inflict upon our constitution and the rule of law to get there. Such legal and constitutional issues are often complex and not easy to follow and are certainly not exciting for most people. Populists mock the 'lefty' lawyers that do understand them and who express concern. Yet the ramifications may be profound. In order to give effect to the "Will of the People" there appeared to be absolutely no limit or sense of restraint in what this government was prepared to do. We have seen: 1. Aforesaid undermining of a national broadcasting service which has a strict duty of independence and is in effect part of our evolved constitution 2. Failure to engage with Parliament or allow votes leading to a prorogation that was held by the courts to be unlawful. Lying to Parliament and putting the role of the our constitutional monarch and head of state in a dangerous position. 3. Hence, complicity in attacks against Judges (who cannot answer back by the way) and thus undermining the independent judiciary and public confidence in it. We are not like the States, judges here are very much above politics. 4. Complicit in attacks on the independent electoral commission, which had investigated BREXIT campaign funding. Another often overlooked and unglamorous facet of the system that is nevertheless a vital safeguard. 5. Preparedness to breach an international treaty obligation (see below). There are more examples, but surely that should suffice. - The independence of the civil service is also under attack. This, again, I suspect is another area where there might be some differences with the States. Our higher civil service is genuinely neutral. The combination of Government wishing to dilute civil service influence with advisers who are their ideological fellow travellers and the, no doubt, lack of enthusiasm of civil servants for measures of questionable constitutional propriety, has led to an unprecedented spate of senior civil service resignations. - Populists like the concept of "the other", some scapegoats representing an existential threat like the hordes of "invading" migrants poised to come over in droves to man our NHS and pick our potatoes for us. It's all about exploiting fear beyond the level of any rational concern. This justifies them in doing the things they want to do, things that in more sober and moderate times we would rightly shrink from doing as a society. - What they do with the power they have? Well, we are starting to see questionable actions, like the Licence to Kill Bill* and a very broad hint (actually in the last manifesto) that we would disengage from the European Convention on Human Rights, that, in my view as a practitioner, has proved to be a vital safeguard in the context of an unwritten UK constitution, particularly when governments of all hues use large majorities to flout constitutional conventions or enact draconian legislation. The excuse, of course, is to stop those lefty activist lawyers from continuing to insist that the treatment of those who seek asylum in Britain conforms to the rule of law and respects their human rights. Still, that's scumbag lawyers for you. If you question the need for that, remember the 'hostile environment' and the Windrush debacle. - Populists tend to behave as if they are above the law, because their claimed popular mandate trumps (no pun intended) any of the boring rules and safeguards. Hence the unprecedented step of legislation that foresees HMG breaching an international treaty obligation entered into by the same government and on which the ink was barely dry. Remind me, how are we now, for example, supposed to tax China regarding its treaty obligation to allow Hong Kong as one country-two systems? - In the context of Covid-19 and even allowing for the needs of an emergency and the passing of emergency legislation, there is growing concern, both on the part of UK regional politicians and Parliamentarians including the Government's own back benchers, at the rather authoritarian way the Government is going about things. Take the two World Wars, there was national Government and every effort made to build consensus in Parliament, despite the wartime powers. This may be seen as a further instance of this administration failing to respect constitutional norms and expectations, once more eroding the role of the democratically elected House. So, all I would say is, when you vote for guys like these, understand the implications. May you all live long and happy lives and avoid the Daily Mail! *Explain to me why we have draft legislation that if passed would actually allow HMG to do many of the really nasty things that we lay at President Putin's door? Is it enough to tell ourselves that, of course, we wouldn't, as we're jolly good chaps and he's just some dodgy foreign dictator? It seems to me I've just catalogued a bunch of stuff that a good chap in government would not have done. Edited October 12, 2020 by Edwardian spelling! 8 7 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 I was very fortunate to see Tom Stoppard's Leopoldstadt before lockdown. Those comfortable turn-of-the-century middle-class assimilated Viennese Jews were confident that "it couldn't happen here". It did. It can. It will if we let it. 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Edwardian said: *Explain to me why we have draft legislation that if passed would actually allow HMG to do many of the really nasty things that we lay at President Putin's door? It's "salami" tactics aimed at reducing the respect for law and basic civilisation. (Aka "human rights".) There is no way such a law could have even been considered a few years ago, but by a process of gradual erosion, "we" (or our elected representatives who should have been voting not along party lines but as their conscience dictates, assuming they have a conscience, of course) are prepared to sanction laws against unknown future targets, "just in case". We end up potentially in a situation where a dictatorship can be proclaimed using nothing more than existing legislation, all of which was approved "democratically" by preceding regimes. Despite some of what I said earlier, I don't think BJ is a moron, and the buffoonery is an act. He is just the populist front man for some much nastier people. President Trump, on the other hand, may be slightly unaware of his exact role in such. "Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you." Curt Cobain, and may others. 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: I was very fortunate to see Tom Stoppard's Leopoldstadt before lockdown. Those comfortable turn-of-the-century middle-class assimilated Viennese Jews were confident that "it couldn't happen here". It did. It can. It will if we let it. Which nicely ties in the discussion to the pre-grouping era. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing." - Edmund Burke. (Which is very pre-grouping!) 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 (edited) There is a small danger in having too much politics in an RMWeb thread that hasn’t been mentioned: The thread getting locked. It only takes one deliberate act of trolling, or one accidental outburst of hot-headedness by perhaps a casual visitor, to spark major trouble, and The Mods’ tolerance then has to be withdrawn for the sake of good order. Better to debate here-and-now politics in threads that aren’t so ancient and treasured as this one. Maybe CA should spawn a sub-thread The Parish Pump. Edited October 12, 2020 by Nearholmer 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said: Whatever the fish, could I have double chips .......... To get back on topic (well nearly), in that case you'll need a bigger fishplate! BTW it's haddock every time for me, though I can't see the point in mushy peas. Oh! and if you're in that city in the East which we from the West hesitate to name, they'll ask if you want salt and sauce rather than salt and vinegar. Funny folk in E..... Oops, nearly did it then! Jim 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Caley Jim said: Oh! and if you're in that city in the East which we from the West hesitate to name, they'll ask if you want salt and sauce rather than salt and vinegar. Always wondered what that was about. But yes, haddock is much better, unless it’s a bad haddock, in which case you need to lie down in a quiet plaice until you don’t feel so down at eel. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, Regularity said: .....in which case you need to lie down in a quiet plaice until you don’t feel so down at eel. What did the one sole say to the other sole? Don't look now, but there's a couple of eels following us. Jim (hat & coat on and windae picked.) 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocor Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: There is a small danger in having too much politics in an RMWeb thread that hasn’t been mentioned: The thread getting locked. It only takes one deliberate act of trolling, or one accidental outburst of hot-headedness by perhaps a casual visitor, to spark major trouble, and The Mods’ tolerance then has to be withdrawn for the sake of good order. Better to debate here-and-now politics in threads that aren’t so ancient and treasured as this one. Maybe CA should spawn a sub-thread The Parish Pump. You have got the situation completely battened down. For as long as the discourse flows along with no ripples in the water it will not present calls for moderation. It just requires for one agent provocateur to slip in under the antisubmarine nets to set a charge in the harbour and blow the vessel sky high. p.s. One of my other hobbies is mixing up metaphors and then tying knots in them. 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Nearholmer said: There is a small danger in having too much politics in an RMWeb thread that hasn’t been mentioned: The thread getting locked. It only takes one deliberate act of trolling, or one accidental outburst of hot-headedness by perhaps a casual visitor, to spark major trouble, and The Mods’ tolerance then has to be withdrawn for the sake of good order. Better to debate here-and-now politics in threads that aren’t so ancient and treasured as this one. Maybe CA should spawn a sub-thread The Parish Pump. May I draw the attention of the council to this notice; https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/158850-the-jubilee-assembly-hall-castle-aching-norfolk/ No obligation to use that thread but I thought I'd create it anyway. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, brianusa said: Of course railway station is the old correct. However in the general sense of evolution it has evolved over the (recent) years into the contemporary train station. If there wasn't evolution in any form, we would still be dragging our knuckles on the ground! As much as I personally dislike TS, it will never be RS again! Brian. 16 hours ago, Annie said: As far as I can observe those who say 'train station' do have their knuckles dragging on the ground. Excuse me Ladies and Gentleman, while I will, carefully, express no opinion on the Railway Station/Train Station debate, I do feel I should raise objection to the above assumption that having longer arms in proportion to one's bodylength is a mark of inferiority. This is 'apeism' in a particularly ugly form. If I understand the taxonomy correctly, 'modern humans' are one of the surviving types of Great Ape, and in terms of breeding success clearly the most successful. However, we have achieved this at enormous cost to our fellow Great Apes, to the other big-brained social creatures (for example the Great Whales and the Elephants), and I am deeply suspicious as to why we form the only extant version of Humans and the other recent forms,the so-called Neanderthals, Denisovans, and others have somehow vanished. If the ability to use a large brain and having binocular vision and an opposable thumb has given us the ability to change environments to suit ourselves then we have been singularly irresponsible with it. What is so superior about bi-pedalism and balancing the heaviest weight in our bodies on top of a critical and highly-stressed structure? If a rapidly changing tectonic environment, and our co-evolution with fast and deadly predators, encouraged us to develop tools and weapons, then it is rather sad that we haven't evolved a more extended sense of responsibility. In my 'bucket list' of things to do in what must be, presumably, the last third of my life, I would, in addition to sailing across the Atlantic (in a crewed-up boat obviously, none of this single-handed stuff), want to meet a Great Whale and an Elephant. I would also very much like to meet an Orang-utan, and possibly some Gorillas. Bonobos (largely matriarchal) would be very interesting, but I would be nervous of meeting Chimpanzees. They are far too close to us, both genetically and in behaviour to be comfortable with. If there had been a slightly different series of tectonic events in what is now East Africa, we might have developed more in an arboreal environment, and stayed more a climbing animal than a running animal. Then long arms and prehensile feet would have been very useful. Think what advantages that would have for railway systems! Multi-level carriages with more hanging straps than seats. No need for expensive footbridges, just simple fibre structures. So please, don't claim that our fellow Great Apes are very inferior to us. We have, so far, had a few lucky environmental breaks, and then set about abusing our heritage. I don't think many Orang-Utans, Gorillas, or Bonobos voted for DT or BS. Chimpanzees I'm not so sure about, but if I understand correctly, dominant males are most likely to be deposed by younger, stronger rivals. Not ones much the same age as themselves! Anyway, why should we be so proud of our physical form? Big heads (with all the problems those confer) and Big Bottoms are what define us! Addition:- The Postman has just delivered a cardboard tube from that nice Mr Isinglass. So now a choice is required about what locomotive to work on next:- NER Class Z NER Class V LNER Class V2 Any opinions? (I am happy to use my binocular vision and opposable thumbs in the course of construction!) Edited October 12, 2020 by drmditch 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, drmditch said: I do feel I should raise objection to the above assumption that having longer arms in proportion to one's bodylength is a mark of inferiority. It is a definite advantage if one has wide baseboards. Whether that means it is a characteristic that will be selected for (found desirable by a mate) is less clear. 3 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, drmditch said: I do feel I should raise objection to the above assumption that having longer arms in proportion to one's bodylength is a mark of inferiority. This is 'apeism' in a particularly ugly form. Oh, I assumed Annie was talking about Orcs! Hmm, an Atlantic of 1903 or a Pacific of 1911? On balance, the former. Always good to see a few more of this rather Edwardian wheel arrangement about the place. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 Yes, the Atlantic every time. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Northroader said: Yes, the Atlantic every time. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Northroader said: Yes, the Atlantic every time. Are we talking here sailing it or building a loco of that description? I have no wish to do the former and no need for the latter. Jim 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Caley Jim said: BTW it's haddock every time for me, though I can't see the point in mushy peas. Oh! and if you're in that city in the East which we from the West hesitate to name, they'll ask if you want salt and sauce rather than salt and vinegar. It's definitely 'Salt & Vinegar' in Newlyn, and Haddocks the main seller. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 But Jim, they were the most magnificent scottish Locomotives ever built: 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Edwardian said: Too many driving wheels; otherwise a good attempt by T.W.'s little brother. But not a compound and not (to my knowledge) a 90 mph locomotive: 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, Northroader said: Yes, the Atlantic every time. Chesterfield Footy Club changed to a 4-4-2 format on Saturday and won. Apparently it's the first time they've tried that format, so another poster on here tells me 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley Jim Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 8 minutes ago, Northroader said: But Jim, they were the most magnificent scottish Locomotives ever built: Could the moderators please, pretty please, supply a 'dislike' button? Having said that, in 1905 the CR did have proposed Atlantics, in both simple and compound versions, but the order was cancelled and they built the 903 (Cardean) class 4-6-0 instead. Jim 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 Specially for @Caley Jim, a Scottish 4-6-0: Nice carriages, too. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Annie Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Edwardian said: Oh, I assumed Annie was talking about Orcs! Hmm, an Atlantic of 1903 or a Pacific of 1911? On balance, the former. Always good to see a few more of this rather Edwardian wheel arrangement about the place. Yes of course I was. As a former Fantasy wargamer I know nothing at all about apes, but I do know about Orcs. And I'll put in a vote for the Atlantic as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 12, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2020 Another vote for the Atlantic 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Annie said: Yes of course I was. As a former Fantasy wargamer I know nothing at all about apes, but I do know about Orcs. And I'll put in a vote for the Atlantic as well. Atlantics are nice ..... Orcses are nassssty! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 Even the LNWR ended up with a 4-4-2, a Precursor Tank loco, which doesn't really cut the mustard compared with proper 'Atlantics' that have tenders. Even 'Way down West' we have Atlantics - other than a nearby Ocean...... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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