RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2020 A small point of correction, you need destroy nothing providing you reach Norwich before 1880. But you will be in place to ensure that the gardens are developed elsewhere. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Andy Hayter said: A small point of correction, you need destroy nothing providing you reach Norwich before 1880. But you will be in place to ensure that the gardens are developed elsewhere. Happy to beat the Lynn & Fakenham to Norwich by 2-3 years, why, was the Plantation Garden not created until 1880? If so, all I am doing is re-cycling an abandoned chalk pit and my conscience is clear! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Edwardian said: Wiki tells is that: The Plantation Garden, located at 4 Earlham Road, Norwich, was established 140 years ago in a 3-acre (12,000 m2) abandoned chalk quarry by Henry Trevor, a Norwich shopkeeper. Over a period of forty years the gardens became a showpiece that featured terraces, water features and rockeries surrounded by a large fountain, all styled on Italian Renaissance designs. It once featured eight glasshouses. The design may have been influenced by the architect Edward Boardman, who worked for Trevor on other projects. After Henry Trevor died in 1897, the gardens slowly became neglected. So by my sums - 2020 - 140 = 1880 = bingo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: So by my sums - 2020 - 140 = 1880 = bingo Yes, but there was a reference to the mid-Nineteenth Century. "A city garden laid out with advice from the architect Edward Boardman between 1857 and the 1890s" according to Historic England Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2020 OK, I accept that that is a bit different to your earlier post, but nevertheless I assume the WNR would have been in discussion with landowners well in advance of physical arrival. It was after all "industrial part of the city" prior to 1855. A small massage of history is all that is needed. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: OK, I accept that that is a bit different to your earlier post, but nevertheless I assume the WNR would have been in discussion with landowners well in advance of physical arrival. It was after all "industrial part of the city" prior to 1855. A small massage of history is all that is needed. Henry Trevor buys elsewhere in the 1850s! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted October 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 17, 2020 my thoughts exactly 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 17, 2020 Author Share Posted October 17, 2020 So, by the mid-late 1870s, this is still an abandoned chalk pit. The houses that Henry Trevor would have built on the high ground fronting Earlham St (The Beeches and The Planation, IIRC) are, of course, never built, but this provides the ideal site for a forecourt and station building with steps down to platform level. A ramp can take traffic down to the goods yard. The line can exit via a tunnel and clear the fringe of Norwich housing at something like its narrowest point underground, rising in the fields beyond via a cutting up to ground level. And so to bed ... 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 11 hours ago, Nearholmer said: I'm thinking that the story of the discovery of the statue would be particularly powerful if the shepherd had thrust the but of his crook into the ground, and struck something solid, whereupon the sky suddenly brightened and the sun broke through the clouds. Would make a particularly dramatic large oil painting in the high Victorian style I think. That reminds me of a cartoon I saw years ago, where two monks were walking down the road and, beneath a glowering sky, a huge hand was pointing towards the top of a nearby hill. The caption read something like "That looks like a good place". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 6 hours ago, Edwardian said: This even to the extent of not liking to re-name real places! I understand your point of view, but I do find that camouflaging real place names is a useful dodge. Wolfringham instead of Wolferton sounds fine to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Not St John the Baptist under construction, but St Pancras. (The London Picture Archive) https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?i=305816 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Substitute West Norwich for London! https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?i=320841 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 The caption says "Block of buildings, [...] required by the railway". Trying to work this out - presumably by the Great Northern, not the Midland - there were no Midland works east of Pancras Road; the tunnelling for the connection o the Widened Lines was complete some time before the hotel reached the stage of construction shown here - in fact services into Moorgate started before those into St Pancras, which also started before the completion of the hotel. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: The caption says "Block of buildings, [...] required by the railway". Trying to work this out - presumably by the Great Northern, not the Midland - there were no Midland works east of Pancras Road; the tunnelling for the connection o the Widened Lines was complete some time before the hotel reached the stage of construction shown here - in fact services into Moorgate started before those into St Pancras, which also started before the completion of the hotel. Kings Cross I guess? Going to loose a few hours on that site. Do the "Advanced Search", with years from 1830 to 1900 and Railways as keyword! Edited October 18, 2020 by Shadow Update Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shadow said: Kings Cross I guess? Well, yes of course, but what aspect of the development of the Kings Cross site? It looks as if these buildings may have been on the diagonal between the original station frontage and Euston Road. Compare the OS 1895 5 ft/mile plan and the earliest 25" survey on the NLS site, surveyed 1871, showing St Pancras Road curving round to pass directly in front off the Kings Cross frontage to the junction of Euston Road and Pentonville Road at King's Cross itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) Isn’t that a view from south of the Thames, showing the line on viaduct heading north towards the bridge over the river, the on towards Holborn viaduct and snow hill tunnel? Artist somewhere in Southwark? Or, is it the other way, looking from roughly the site of Holborn Viaduct station, down toward the river with Southwark beyond? Edited October 18, 2020 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeysarefun Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 All these last posts and their hypothetical alternative versions of history have been hugely entertaining and are making me rethink my planned layout based on the station from the opening scenes of the movie "Wake In Fright" 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 22 minutes ago, Shadow said: Not St John the Baptist under construction, but St Pancras. (The London Picture Archive) https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/view-item?i=305816 My first thought was to question why the GN would be doing anything after those Johnny-come-latelies from Derby had broken ground, I'm not sure. The Great Northern Hotel is to that side of King's Cross, but had opened by 1854, whereas the St Pancras Hotel opened in 1868. Then I realised that these row of houses must have been on what is now part of the expansive forecourt to King's Cross, the GN Hotel is off the picture to the right. Essentially I think it's Weston Place (see map below) which ran at an angle. It's taken down, c.1871, and the road straightened. We move from this .... To this .... Norwich West As for tunneling, can I assume that by c.1880 we're no longer needing to rely upon cut-and-cover, but we can dig right under the Norwich housing? 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: Isn’t that a view from south of the Thames, showing the line on viaduct heading north towards the bridge over the river, the on towards Holborn viaduct and snow hill tunnel? Artist somewhere in Southwark? Or, is it the other way, looking from roughly the site of Holborn Viaduct station, down toward the river with Southwark beyond? looking south towards the river, with St Brides on the right. If we were looking north from Southwark, St Pauls would be dominant in the distance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Yes, dimwit here twigged that afternoon posting - the thing that threw me was the absence of The Tate Modern. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 So far, the best information I can find on the construction of St John the Baptist is In 1877, Henry Fitzalan Howard, the 15th Duke of Norfolk, married Lady Flora Hastings, and he decided to commemorate the event in stone. In 1892 he would write a letter to the Mayor of Norwich, remembering the occasion. "When, shortly after my most happy marriage, I wished to build a church as a thank-offering to God, many places were suggested to me. Bearing in mind the title that I hold, I decided to build this church in Norwich, the chief city of Norfolk." A site had been purchased in Coslany, but before any clearance began, the 1827 city gaol came onto the market. This was also bought, and in 1881 the buildings on it were demolished. The Duke selected as architect for the new building George Gilbert Scott Junior, a convert to Catholicism. It would be dedicated to St John the Baptist, in memory of the chapel in Maddermarket Street. The style was to be Early English Gothic. The size would be immense. There seems to have been no competition. The foundation stone was laid on the 17th July 1884. Construction proceeded smoothly until 1892, when it was discovered that there was no planning permission for the full length of the building. This was the occasion for the Duke's letter mentioned in the previous paragraph, throwing himself somewhat on the mercy of the Corporation. "After considerable hesitation", he wrote, "I venture to address you on the subject of the church I am building in Norwich. As you are aware, difficulties have arisen... and I fear that there is danger not only of the city and myself being driven to great expense in litigation, but of its appearing as if I was acting in a hostile spirit towards the Corporation of Norwich in my attempt to add one more to the beauties of their beautiful city. It is this last consideration which chiefly induces me to trouble you with this letter." The Duke went on to observe that "I have now built half the church, and I do not think any member of the corporation will suggest that it is a building of which Norwich has any cause to be ashamed... Norwich has got half my church. If it does not want the other half, perhaps I had better build it in some place which will appreciate it more. To me, of course, the result will be a disappointment." This combination of charm and bluff seemed to do the trick, and by 1894 the nave had been completed, and services were moved from the two smaller churches in the parish into St John the Baptist. Scott died in 1897, and the work was finished by his brother, John Oldrich Scott. And so, on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, December 8th 1910, the great church was opened with a Blessing and High Pontifical Mass celebrated by the Bishop of Northampton, Dr Keating. Norfolk Churches Site If I ever tackled Norwich West, however, I think I might miss out the substantially complete RC church; it would take years. Alan Downes once built a cathedral in 4mm, but I'm no Alan Downes! If the St J the B was modelled, then, logically, too I would need to build the other buildings fronting Unthank Road: - The Baptist church next door, now no longer extant (a victim of '1950s-Knows-Best' syndrome), but here seen in a rare pre-war colour view; and, - The four villas that follow Now, much as I'd love to build all these, I also have to think about the practicalities of a model. My thought is not have the baseboard front along the Unthank Road side of the station, i.e. the passenger platform side and not to model the full height of the cutting on that side in order to give access and nearer ground level views. The opposite side would be the backscene. The cutting would be modelled to full height, with the half relief model of the Chester Place terrace to the rear. The station frontage and a short section of Earlham Road would be modelled, and a Norwich tram could be posed. (I realise tram No.2 isn't routed to go along Earlham Road!) 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2020 30 minutes ago, Edwardian said: The Duke went on to observe that "I have now built half the church, and I do not think any member of the corporation will suggest that it is a building of which Norwich has any cause to be ashamed... Norwich has got half my church. If it does not want the other half, perhaps I had better build it in some place which will appreciate it more. To me, of course, the result will be a disappointment." Do I spy the half-way point, three bays out from the tower? Definite change in the appearance of the roofing material. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) I couldn't resist a look at the topography, and would suggest that a tunnel out under the houses in Clarendon, Neville, and Grosvenor Roads (They crop-up everywhere; were they the only road names that Victorian sign-founders catered for?) might be pushing your luck. To me, it looks much more likely that it would have been a cutting, and not all that deep either. The idea of a close-to-centre station in a sunken garden quite appeals, because it is the reverse of Central Croydon, where the station closed ages ago and the site was turned into a sunken garden. It was never a very grand station, but it might provide you with a few ideas because the date is probably about right for you ...... key point is how few platforms it had. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/central_croydon/ Edited October 18, 2020 by Nearholmer 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 1873 Morant map of Norwich showing thee City Goal http://historic-maps.norfolk.gov.uk/mapimageviewer/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: I couldn't resist a look at the topography, and would suggest that a tunnel out under the houses in Clarendon, Neville, and Grosvenor Roads (They crop-up everywhere; were they the only road names that Victorian sign-founders catered for?) might be pushing your luck. To me, it looks much more likely that it would have been a cutting, and not all that deep either. The idea of a close-to-centre station in a sunken garden quite appeals, because it is the reverse of Central Croydon, where the station closed ages ago and the site was turned into a sunken garden. It was never a very grand station, but it might provide you with a few ideas because the date is probably about right for you ...... key point is how few platforms it had. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/central_croydon/ I think it would have been a cutting, had the terraces not already been built. EDIT: Post crossed with Shadow's; it all depends on when we reach Norwich, because a lot of housing was built between his survey (published 1873) and the 1880-1886 survey (which shows the gaol already cleared in preparation for the RC church (first stone laid 1884). Now, assuming the housing terraces are extant when the WNR reaches Norwich, there is the question of how much by way of foundations and cellars there were, and how much earth needs to be above the tunnel, however, I don't doubt there is enough height to fit a tunnel under street level. Look at this fellow on the steps. If we assume he's 5'10" and stack him, he shows us that we have 29' between the ground and the top of the balustrade, though there is clearly more embankment behind, so we seem to be playing with a depth in excess of 30', say at least 35' We need something like 14'6" above rail height for the tunnel portal. Using This Calculation, the distance above rail height required in 4mil is 59mm. Thus, we seem to have over twice the height of the portal aperture to play with. Say the portal is 63mm above ground level, we have about 140mm up to street level. That would leave only 19' or so over the height of the portal. How practical that would have been .... As I say, only worth a tunnel if there is a reason you don't want a cutting, like streets and houses above. Alternatively, if a tunnel is not feasible, we can knock a trackbed's worth (single or double?) of houses down and have a series of bridges where the roads cross. Wondering if we need a double track and lots of platform faces, as the traffic to Norwich may not be that intense. Quite liking Alnick, with loops either side of a wide central platform, so only two platform faces (arrival and departure?) under triple-roof train shed. Edited October 18, 2020 by Edwardian 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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