Castle Aching

[Joseph_Pestell]

17 minutes ago, Welchester said:

On the subject of unusual units in the British army, a friend's father served in the Great War in a crazy outfit called the Public School Rifles.

 

For some at least, WW1 was still run in much the same way as wars had been for centuries, with aristocracy taking their own "serfs" with them (as per DH Lawrence, Lady Chatterley's Lover). My own grandfather, a gamekeeper on an estate in Hampshire, was a beneficiary of such arrangements. He did see military action in Mesopotamia (Iraq) against the Turks but spent a lot of the war in India helping his boss hunt for big game.

[drmditch]

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

War is a great leveller, but peace is a great stratifier.

 

Two other examples that come to mind are:

 

(a) Prussia and the War of Liberation against Napoleon, which saw the Middle Classes, hitherto excluded from the Military Caste, become officers in the Landwehr and Freikorps only to face a re-assertion of privilege post-Congress.; 

Not to mention the distinctly middle-class Prussian (later Imperial) Navy.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, drmditch said:

Perhaps, in the early years of railway development, the only exemplars for a disciplined service were the Army and Navy. Drivers had to realise that they couldn't just stop near a pub when it was convenient to them. Even back then there had to be regulations, and 'policemen' to administer them. Interesting though that some railway officers clung to a military title, such as Captains Huish and O'Brien. Army titles presumably, since in the first half of the 19th century Captains RN, even when retired, would have been too senior and probably too old to start building a second career. Although some RN officers, such as Admiral Elliot of the SDLUR, did serve on committees and boards.

 

Should not the WNR have an Admiral or two, of any rank, on it's board?

One would hope though that they would support the proper side in the Fisher/Beresford controversy.

 

As regards social order and conventions, there is a reference (sorry, too lazy to check this morning) of a young man being advised to join the LNER, 'since it was run by gentlemen'.

 

There is this convention that field officers (Major, Colonel) and above may use their rank socially after retirement. 

 

In the Victorian period, I seem to come across more junior ranks being referred to, though I wonder if, in the case of those Board of Trade inspectors, they are still serving (presumably RE) officers? Certainly, I recall instances of inspectors gaining rank during their BoT careers.

 

It hadn't crossed my mind that some might be RN Captains (who are the equivalent of army field rank).

 

Anyway, this brings me to Wilkie Collins's Captain Wragge.  He is a confidence trickster in one of my favourite novels. His tenuous claim to respectability was that he was once a captain (in the militia, not the regular army, so socially and professionally inferior to a regular officer).  I have assumed that using the rank of army Captain socially was a deliberately  infra dig touch by the author, implying that Wragge was flakey. 

 

6 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Not to mention the distinctly middle-class Prussian (later Imperial) Navy.

 

Yes, and this has been cited as a reason why the Kriegsmarine was the most pro-Nazi of the three services.  No doubt a distinction that the Junkers in the army General Staff would have naturally made.

 

 

[Regularity]

55 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 Prussia and the War of Liberation against Napoleon, which saw the Middle Classes, hitherto excluded from the Military Caste, become officers in the Landwehr and Freikorps only to face a re-assertion of privilege post-Congress.

Seems to be rather an intrusion into their private lives...

[Darryl Tooley]

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

As regards social order and conventions, there is a reference (sorry, too lazy to check this morning) of a young man being advised to join the LNER, 'since it was run by gentlemen'.

R H N Hardy, Steam in the Blood, chapter one.

 

D

[ianathompson]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s all very strange stuff: where I worked, we had a fair sprinkling of ex-military engineering staff, from technicians to senior managers, and nearly all had made the transfer to civilian life, and the meritocratic and faintly bolshy world of railways, very happily, in many cases brilliantly, but two I can think of really struggled with the fact that they were no longer wearing a uniform that got them saluted and obeyed even when they were giving orders that everyone could ‘see straight through’. One was very senior, and left fairly quickly because he couldn’t hack the culture - his style was utterly divisive. The other was part of the organisation for c20 years, but one day blew a bit of a fuse and admitted to me that what he was struggling with, even after all that time, was the lack of an ‘officers and men’ culture - he really hated the idea that ‘all ranks’ were free to express their opinion, and that ‘you can’t get away from them, even in the mess room or the gents’. TBH, he was having a bad day, but it did highlight how having been an officer cadet from 16yo had shaped his outlook on life.

 

Totally mirrors my own railway experience.

One of my mates had been a senior Flight Sergeant  in the RAF and was an all round good bloke.

Another one was a complete idiot who had been a high ranking RAF officer.

 

I could go on and on about the latter, and a few more ex RAF and Navy men who had not realised that they were in civvy life and had no authority over anybody.

Needless to say they were inevitably the butt of many practical jokes and wind ups from the 'civilians'.

 

The ex officer "who knew it all" walked up the steps of his new box to find muggins in charge as a relief man who had to show him the ropes.

The box was notorious locally for tripping people up because of its unusual equipment.

Of course within a week or two he was telling me what I did not know about that particular box, which surprisingly had become more important than any ROC in the country.

 

He was finally asked to retire after causing a "major incident".

As the union man I was informed by colleagues that two other such occurences had been swept under the carpet.

Fortunately no-one was killed or injured: no thanks to the clown concerned.

 

Ian T

Edited December 7, 2020 by ianathompson
typo

[ianathompson]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

Perhaps, in the early years of railway development, the only exemplars for a disciplined service were the Army and Navy. Drivers had to realise that they couldn't just stop near a pub when it was convenient to them. Even back then there had to be regulations, and 'policemen' to administer them. Interesting though that some railway officers clung to a military title, such as Captains Huish and O'Brien.

 

The military roots of railway service continue to this day. 

When you begin your shift in a signalbox you write "Name on duty at time" on the Train Register.

You similarly sign off duty at the end of the shift.

You never receive holiday. It is always "Annual Leave".

 

Ian T

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, Welchester said:

.......at management level you and your family had first class privilege travel

When the Scottish Area of the HMRS used to meet in Falkirk in the 1970's one of the regular attendees was Duncan Burton, at the time Shedmaster at Haymarket.  He told us that he could sense the nervousness  from the staff on his train there and back when word was passed round them that there was a 1st class pass on board.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

There is this convention that field officers (Major, Colonel) and above may use their rank socially after retirement. 

 

In the Victorian period, I seem to come across more junior ranks being referred to, though I wonder if, in the case of those Board of Trade inspectors, they are still serving (presumably RE) officers? Certainly, I recall instances of inspectors gaining rank during their BoT careers.

 

It hadn't crossed my mind that some might be RN Captains (who are the equivalent of army field rank).

 

 

As far as I'm aware, the BoT inspectors were seconded from the RE; certainly as one reads through the reports one can see their promotions. Francis Marindin goes from Lt.-Col. to Col. 

 

As to military men in railway management, nowhere more so than on the London & Birmingham and subsequently the "Southern" party on the LNWR board - with Admiral Constantine Moorsom ending up as Chairman in 1852-1861. He had become a rear-admiral by seniority during the course of his time as a LNWR director. In the 1840s he and his brother Captain William Scarth Moorsom (Army, ex-Sandhurst) had been running the Birmingham & Gloucester: Constantine as secretary and William as engineer. Their father was one of Nelson's captains at Trafalgar. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

When I started (mid-70s) there was a definite hierarchical structure in BR, from the Officers' Messes in the various HQs down to job titles (Chief This-that-and-the-other) and the grading structure for Senior Officers,

 

Absolutely, remember it well, but most of that stuff (bar job titles) had gone by about the mid-1980s IIRC, and the case I'm citing was actually in LT, which had a subtly different culture from BR, and certainly by the early-2000s was a world away in cultural terms from the 1970s.

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As far as I'm aware, the BoT inspectors were seconded from the RE; certainly as one reads through the reports one can see their promotions. Francis Marindin goes from Lt.-Col. to Col. 

 

As to military men in railway management, nowhere more so than on the London & Birmingham and subsequently the "Southern" party on the LNWR board - with Admiral Constantine Moorsom ending up as Chairman in 1852-1861. He had become a rear-admiral by seniority during the course of his time as a LNWR director. In the 1840s he and his brother Captain William Scarth Moorsom (Army, ex-Sandhurst) had been running the Birmingham & Gloucester: Constantine as secretary and William as engineer. Their father was one of Nelson's captains at Trafalgar. 

 

Interesting, here is the Trafalgar Captain Moorsom.  The Scarth refers to the Admiral's wife, whose brother was a de-frocked Quaker and Lancashire Cotton King.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The Scarth refers to the Admiral's wife, whose brother was a de-frocked Quaker and Lancashire Cotton King.

 

Are Quakers actually frocked, as such?

 

But it's a connection that is suggestive for their entree into the new industry of Stephensonian railways. It also ties in with Constantine Moorsom's involvement with the anti-slavery movement.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Andy Kirkham]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Sadly, snobbery is quick to re-assert itself in the peacetime military.  I remember the CO of a Yeomanry regiment in the '90s complaining to me that a (university graduate) with an accent (Welsh) had had the temerity to approach him for a commission in his regiment.  The CO's whole attitude was that it was the aspirant who was blameworthy in this situation, for not understanding how inappropriate it was.  The CO felt he would be more 'at home' in one of the corps. engineers, perhaps.  

 

It was a moment that caused me to question what the Hell I was doing there.  As you see, it was a moment that has stuck with me, as things that cause a bad taste in the mouth tend to linger.

That's probably why, as far as I know, no member of my family has ever voluntarily joined the armed forces. We're too posh to be squaddies and not posh enough to be officers.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Andy Kirkham said:

That's probably why, as far as I know, no member of my family has ever voluntarily joined the armed forces. We're too posh to be squaddies and not posh enough to be officers.

 

I've been reading a book on chivalry in the middle ages. It seems the decline of the knight as the central element of the late medieval army was largely due to the rise of the wealthy urban middle classes who were only to happy to commute feudal obligations into cash payment through taxation.

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've been reading a book on chivalry in the middle ages. It seems the decline of the knight as the central element of the late medieval army was largely due to the rise of the wealthy urban middle classes who were only to happy to commute feudal obligations into cash payment through taxation.

 

Bastard Feudalism, it's called

[Edwardian]

16 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

That's probably why, as far as I know, no member of my family has ever voluntarily joined the armed forces. We're too posh to be squaddies and not posh enough to be officers.

 

One or two volunteer units in London retain the concept of the 'Gentleman Ranker', but it confuses the Hell out of regular officers, who, as you say, are not used to the idea of any 'middling' strata between them and 'the Lads'. 

 

Before I was commissioned I was sometime in the ranks. Once I was seconded to be the General's signaller on a Brigade exercise.  He was in a jolly mood that weekend as his son had just been accepted at Cambridge, which fact he volunteered.  He really struggled with the fact that his signaller clearly knew all about being an undergrad there; it seemed to upset his notion of the Fitness of Things.  But, times change.  Later we were training with the RTR on Salisbury Plain and one of their tank crewman cheerfully announced that he was leaving the army to take a degree course.  His 'Rupert' didn't know quite what to make of that.  

 

Of course, traditionally the army has needed people for whom life offered no advantages superior to those of a military life. i.e. the poor, unskilled and unemployed.  As long as they had two legs and could be taught left from right, that usually sufficed. For people in that position, the army offered betterment, and they could learn a trade. The problem with the various strata of middling folk was that army life tended to represent a step down, whereas they could not become officers as they would not be able to purchase commissions or pay mess bills if living solely on their pay.   

 

Nowadays, the forces, even the army, has become increasingly technical, so needs people who have spent longer in education and got further, so people who by their training and background are likely to be closer to their civilian equivalents. 

 

 

[Tom Burnham]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Interesting, Kevin. When I started (mid-70s) there was a definite hierarchical structure in BR, from the Officers' Messes in the various HQs down to job titles

On a visit to Allerton traction maintenance depot in 1979 I was amused to see the toilets labelled "Staff", "Men" and "Ladies"...

[DonB]

There's a current recruiting  advertisement  with the tag line " I was born in Blythe but made in the RN" which strikes me as being rather patronising to the good Burgers of that area.

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Nowadays, the forces, even the army, has become increasingly technical,

 

And, through The Great Near-Death of Technical Education and Training, which inflicted British industry, public and private sector alike, from the 1980s until quite recently, they continued to train and educate people properly, which is part of why 'exes' from any technical branch are so employable.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

When the Scottish Area of the HMRS used to meet in Falkirk in the 1970's one of the regular attendees was Duncan Burton, at the time Shedmaster at Haymarket.  He told us that he could sense the nervousness  from the staff on his train there and back when word was passed round them that there was a 1st class pass on board.

 

Jim

Duncan was my boss for a short while when I was at Haymarket in 1979/80. He always had an aristocratic air about him but once you got to know him was very approachable. I think it helped when he found out that I was a railway modeller too - as Jim and others know, Duncan was a fine modeller and had a deep knowledge of the Caley in particular. He usually had a model or two in his desk drawer that would come out at lunch time for a little more work to be done.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Absolutely, remember it well, but most of that stuff (bar job titles) had gone by about the mid-1980s IIRC, and the case I'm citing was actually in LT, which had a subtly different culture from BR, and certainly by the early-2000s was a world away in cultural terms from the 1970s.

Agree on both counts Kevin, which is why I emphasised that I was talking about the Big Railway.

[brianusa]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

As far as I'm aware, the BoT inspectors were seconded from the RE; certainly as one reads through the reports one can see their promotions.

I have never understood why these military officers ended up sorting out railway problems, ever since Victorian days.  What qualifications did they have for the job?

         Brian.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, brianusa said:

What qualifications did they have for the job?

 

As officers in the RE, they were pretty much the only people on the Government payroll with an engineering training. 

 

They certainly demonstrated their competence at analysing both the engineering and the organisational aspects of railway operation.

[jcredfer]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As officers in the RE, they were pretty much the only people on the Government payroll with an engineering training. 

 

They certainly demonstrated their competence at analysing both the engineering and the organisational aspects of railway operation.

 

It was also much easier for them without the lumps of lead and steel being chucked at them.

 

They all had the additional motive to get it right, on the grounds that failure would have disastrous and rather personal, inclusive, consequences.

 

Julian

 

[Nearholmer]

And, they mostly had no background employ with any railway, so were very clearly independent.