Castle Aching

[sem34090]

Apologies for the brief thread-hijack that is about to ensue, but could somebody advise on Roads circa 1914? This is for my freelance pre-grouping layout set on a fictional island off the Northumberland coast. I've used Chinchilla Dust for the road surface but am unsure about the colour.

[Donw]

I have had two friends who were known to be wizrds possesing magical powers when it came to locos. One is Frank Thompson a RAF instructor.  People would ask him to take a look at their locos which did not run right. The other is Steve Naylor. Steve used to help operate my 0 gauge exhibition layout. People who knew us would bring locos along for attention. Quite often at an exhibition Steve would be sat at a table behind the layout orting a loco out. These gentlemen would often sort things out with a few tweaks, a bit of a clean up and possibly a touch of oil. If not they would be able to identfy the cause and what the remedy would be.

Not being in that class I have to work through the problem. 

One I would get out a multimeter and firstly switch it to read ohms  probably the 200ohm scale first touch the probes together that will indicate  what a short circuit reading is when you separate them is will show an open circuit reading.

Then touch the probes against a wheel on each side.

If the meter reads a very low reading that suggests a short  if it reads above 200ohms  it looks like an opencircuit.

If it give a reading of somewhere in the middle it looks llike the loco is conducting the electricity. 

I it looks open circuit at the wheels try the probes on the pick up wires. 

Repor your findings

 

Don

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

Apologies for the brief thread-hijack that is about to ensue, but could somebody advise on Roads circa 1914? This is for my freelance pre-grouping layout set on a fictional island off the Northumberland coast. I've used Chinchilla Dust for the road surface but am unsure about the colour.

 

If a metalled road*, which your use of chinchilla dust implies to my mind, then it will reflect the colour of the stone used.

 

I would say likely a light grey, slightly tanned/browned by dust and stains. Stone is, in any case, seldom a 'pure' grey, i.e. black and white. It often has yellow, brown or even blue and green.  So, I would mix a light 'dirty' grey. I would dry brush with a lighter version of the same colour

 

The darker greys we are used to reflect the tar of tar Macadam.  You want Macadam without tar!

 

 

*A metalled road has a level surface made of small pieces of stone; used especially of country roads and tracks. 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

They do.

Good!  that eliminates any mechanical issue in the chassis itself (excluding the issues with the wheels I mentioned).  Next move is to check if the motor can turn.  You can do this without removing it by just trying to turn the worm with your finger, or by rubbing a pencil eraser across it.  As I said before, if that is OK, then it's an electrical issue and @Donw has given you tips on how to use the meter.  My first move, however would be to apply power directly to the motor, with it disconnected from the chassis, in case there is a short in that, and work back from there.  If the motor is dead, then there's nothing to be gained from doing anything else at this stage, except cleaning up the wheels and wipers and putting a spot of oil in all the bearings and the gears.   You could just check between the motor leads and the wheels, on each side independently, to unsure that there is electrical continuity between them - short circuit indication on the meter.

 

Jim

[Northroader]

Whilst you’re poking about, have you separated the superstructure from the chassis? The focus of your efforts is the chassis, and it will be much easier to work out faults if the two are separated. There’s a very prominent screw between the rear drivers which looks as if it’s meant for this, then there’s either another similar one at the front end,, or possibly the chassis steps under a ledge at the nose end?

Edited January 22, 2021 by Northroader

[webbcompound]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

No. Do I need one? I take it that if I run wires from the battery to the wheels, it will test for life in the motor?

 

(I understand nothing about electrickery)

 

 

Well no-one has answered this yet so I will: With a 9v battery you just touch the battery contacts to the wheels as the are the right distance apart to use without wires

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

Well no-one has answered this yet so I will: With a 9v battery you just touch the battery contacts to the wheels as the are the right distance apart to use without wires

That’s to a wheel on each side, not both on the same side, of course...

(Well, our host did say he knew nothing about electricity....)

[sem34090]

14 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

If a metalled road*, which your use of chinchilla dust implies to my mind, then it will reflect the colour of the stone used.

 

I would say likely a light grey, slightly tanned/browned by dust and stains. Stone is, in any case, seldom a 'pure' grey, i.e. black and white. It often has yellow, brown or even blue and green.  So, I would mix a light 'dirty' grey. I would dry brush with a lighter version of the same colour

 

The darker greys we are used to reflect the tar of tar Macadam.  You want Macadam without tar!

 

 

*A metalled road has a level surface made of small pieces of stone; used especially of country roads and tracks. 

This is probably too brown now, but how's this?

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

If a metalled road*, which your use of chinchilla dust implies to my mind, then it will reflect the colour of the stone used.

 

I would say likely a light grey, slightly tanned/browned by dust and stains. Stone is, in any case, seldom a 'pure' grey, i.e. black and white. It often has yellow, brown or even blue and green.  So, I would mix a light 'dirty' grey. I would dry brush with a lighter version of the same colour

 

The darker greys we are used to reflect the tar of tar Macadam.  You want Macadam without tar!

 

 

*A metalled road has a level surface made of small pieces of stone; used especially of country roads and tracks. 

 

There was a whole discussion of period road surfaces a while back; unfortunately I can't find it if it was a separate topic (you try putting "road surface" in to the search!); it may have been in something else. @Mikkel will probably know since he was a major contributor.

[Mikkel]

The discussion of road surfaces incl. (non-tar) macadam is a bit spread out, but it began here: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136695-modelling-edwardianvictorian-roads/

 

Also here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97672-pragmatic-pre-grouping-mikkels-workbench/&do=findComment&comment=3793174

 

My own conclusion is a light gravel-like base colour but darkened as appropriate by horse dung etc. The chinchilla dust ia  good idea, could be given some yellowish washes (rather than paint, which smoothes over the fine grain that you might want to preserve in this case).

 

[90rob]

3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

My own conclusion is a light gravel-like base colour but darkened as appropriate by horse dung etc. 

 

 

This could start a new trend - a layout that not only looks right, but smells right too.... I'll get me coat.....

 

[Regularity]

The late Richard Chown did this on “Courcelle (Part)” in the noughties, and Steve Cook did it on his “Dungeness Siding” at about the same time, where the only thing moving was the sea breeze.

[Nearholmer]

It also brings-up the question of the colour of horse dung, a subject which I gained a qualification in, or rather gained a boot in, within the past hour, while walking the dog. Varies according to feed, but in this case quite a pale colour, with a faint hint of green.

[Simond]

You can tell a lot about a horse from its digestive output.  I remember reading about it when I had riding lessons a gazillion years ago.  Don’t remember the details, I’m sure you’re all pleased to know.
 

Given that they’re basically a digestive system with a “run-away” module and “panic” mode, I guess it’s only logical.

[Guy Rixon]

On 22/01/2021 at 12:04, Compound2632 said:

You tease. What is it when it's the right way up?

 

I can't comment on the failure to go but it does strike me that the tender and bogie frames are rather close together even for 00, with a lot of sideplay for the axles, which appear to be running in plain holes in the frames, no bushes.

If less sideplay is desired, without complete dismantling, then "horseshoe washers" can be made and fitted. Just take snips and files to ordinary brass washers until they will clip over the axles with a little force and don't fall back off again.

 

If the frames are old-school 1/16" brass or similar, then absence of turned bearings need not matter. If they are a single thickness of etch, then they might wear badly in time.

 

But none of this bears on electrical problems. Query: is the motor trying to turn but locked, or it is bereft of power? Does the motor get warm when the engine if on power track?

[Donw]

4 hours ago, sem34090 said:

This is probably too brown now, but how's this?

 

Given that there will be a lot of mud carried onto the road by cattle (also adding cattle dung)  cart wheels and horse hooves that will affect the colour of the road whatever stones are used. I reckon your example could do quite well for a red sandstone area. Shropshire, Herefordshire, Somerset, Devon all have red sandstone areas where the soil is a red/brown colour.   In our garden there are areas of yellow clay  very sticky and a blue/grey clay sticky. 

You could go to your chosen area for the model and dig down  to find the soil colour but probably easiest to find a freshly ploughed field and look. Add a wash of that to whatever stone is likely to have been used locally .

 

Don 

[Donw]

4 hours ago, sem34090 said:

This is probably too brown now, but how's this?

 

Given that there will be a lot of mud carried onto the road by cattle (also adding cattle dung)  cart wheels and horse hooves that will affect the colour of the road whatever stones are used. I reckon your example could do quite well for a red sandstone area. Shropshire, Herefordshire, Somerset, Devon all have red sandstone areas where the soil is a red/brown colour.   In our garden there are areas of yellow clay  very sticky and a blue/grey clay sticky. 

You could go to your chosen area for the model and dig down  to find the soil colour but probably easiest to find a freshly ploughed field and look. Add a wash of that to whatever stone is likely to have been used locally .

 

Don 

[Nearholmer]

You can get a fair idea of the shade, if not the colour, from old b&w photos, and rural roads are surprisingly pale in most such pictures. If you read accounts of early motoring, Mr Toad and so forth, there are always complaints about great clouds of white dust being thrown into the air, which supports a generally pale shade. My tendency would be to go with local stone and soil as the colour, but very "washed out" unless the weather is wet.

 

I cycle a lot on unmade and loose-metalled trackways in summer, and come home cover in pale dust, not anything dark - even winter mud dries a pale colour.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Right .....

 

When I first tried the loco, it was straight out of the box.  I had cleaned my track, but not touched the loco. Dead.

 

Following the advice here, I disconnected the tender and removed the loco body.

 

I have cleaned the wheel treads, wheel backs and pick-up wires. One of them was not in firm contact with the wheel back, so that was adjusted.

 

 

This is what I have discovered so far:

 

 

But I am far from a working model:

 

- connecting wires from the controller to each pair of driving wheels in turn causes the motor to turn erratically.

 

- on the track, better in reverse, again, the motor works erratically.

 

The motor mount can move from the motor horizontal to the track to a position 45 degrees from the horizontal.

 

The wheels are still difficult to place on the track.  It looks like the front drivers, with the geared axle, are less firmly in contact with the track than the rear pair.  Jim may be right in suspecting the wheels are not as they should be, if so, I suspect I'm b8ggered.

 

On the track the chassis bucks and derails (it's stupidly light, which doesn't help), and/or suddenly stops running as the motor mount moves.

 

As a result, I cannot work out what angle the motor needs to be.

 

The motor has to be more or less horizontal to fit in the boiler barrel.  When the body is put on, it's dead. I don't know whether this is due to a short or the gears not engaging. 

 

I suspect that, if the wheels are part of the problem, the chassis is U/S.

 

In any case, I'm not sure where to go from here and fear that necessary remedial work would be beyond me.

 

Ant suggestions, please? 

 

[teaky]

Tony Wright does (pandemics permitting) a loco doctor service at exhibitions where he fixes locos in exchange for donations to CRUK.  Perhaps he would do the same via post?

[nick_bastable]

have you checked the B2B   from the photo they look wrong ?

 

Nick B

[Caley Jim]

In the motor mount is moving, then that could cause the erratic running as the gears will be going in and out of mesh.  The first thing is therefore to find how you can stop that.    It needs to be fixed in a position where the gears are engaged, but there is still a very slight amount of play between them.  Not being able to study the chassis 'in the flesh' I can't readily advise how you do that, but slipping a thin strip of paper between the relevant gears while you fix the motor mount (with the gears pressed hard into the paper), and then removing it once the motor is rigidly fixed, should give some running clearance.

 

The issue of the wheels being not at the correct back-to-back should be able to be remedied.  I don't know what the correct measurement is for 00, but I would suggest you take a strip of 40thou styrene and trim one end until it will just slip in between the flanges of a wagon or loco which is correct.  Now use this as a gauge to see how those on this loco compare.  Those that are too tight for the strip to go in need to be eased out until they do. if the strip is loose then they need pushed in slightly.  You can also use the strip to check if the wheels are true on the axle by checking with the strip at different places on the circumference.  If they are not, as I suspect  from the first photo you posted, then someone more familiar with 00 wheels will need to advise if it might be possible to remedy that..

 

Jim

[TT-Pete]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It also brings-up the question of the colour of horse dung, a subject which I gained a qualification in, or rather gained a boot in, within the past hour, while walking the dog. Varies according to feed, but in this case quite a pale colour, with a faint hint of green.

 

Or as is it known in colloquial German horse apples (Pferdeapfel). Don't know why, but this descriptlion has always tickled me - "I'd like a bag of monkey nuts and a pound of horse apples please...".

 

 

[RodneyS]

The motor and gearbox in your loco looks like an escap RG4 with the small diameter 1219 motor.

When they were new the instructions stated that they were lubricated for life and any further lubrication would invalidate the guarantee.  Unfortunately the grease gradually solidified and the gears seized up.  I have one which I have never used and the gears are completely jammed.   Even if they have been used they can gradually get slower.  A friend told me to remove the motor, soak the gearbox in IPA and then lubricate it with clock oil.

 

I remember Iain Rice used some of these and found that the locos surged when running.  This was due to the controllers at the time not being suitable for the small motor.  It was as a result of this that Stuart Hine produced his Pentroller with three settings.  One was for what he called 'iron age' motors, the second for the RG4 with the larger motors and the third for the 1219.

 

I would imagine that most of the modern controllers would give good results now.

 

It could be that your gearbox is rather 'sticky' and/or perhaps the motor doesn't like the controller you are using.

The problem is that the gearbox cannot be removed without taking the wheels and axles out.

There is a grubscrew fixing the final gear to the axle so if that was slackened you might be able to run the motor and gearbox without the wheels turning.  This would also enable you to check that the wheels ran freely.

 

Please forgive my ignorance but is it an F ?  If so then it may have been made from a Jidenco/Falcon Brass kit.

Rodney

 

 

[Donw]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Right .....

 

When I first tried the loco, it was straight out of the box.  I had cleaned my track, but not touched the loco. Dead.

 

Following the advice here, I disconnected the tender and removed the loco body.

 

I have cleaned the wheel treads, wheel backs and pick-up wires. One of them was not in firm contact with the wheel back, so that was adjusted.

 

 

This is what I have discovered so far:

 

 

But I am far from a working model:

 

- connecting wires from the controller to each pair of driving wheels in turn causes the motor to turn erratically.

 

- on the track, better in reverse, again, the motor works erratically.

 

The motor mount can move from the motor horizontal to the track to a position 45 degrees from the horizontal.

 

The wheels are still difficult to place on the track.  It looks like the front drivers, with the geared axle, are less firmly in contact with the track than the rear pair.  Jim may be right in suspecting the wheels are not as they should be, if so, I suspect I'm b8ggered.

 

On the track the chassis bucks and derails (it's stupidly light, which doesn't help), and/or suddenly stops running as the motor mount moves.

 

As a result, I cannot work out what angle the motor needs to be.

 

The motor has to be more or less horizontal to fit in the boiler barrel.  When the body is put on, it's dead. I don't know whether this is due to a short or the gears not engaging. 

 

I suspect that, if the wheels are part of the problem, the chassis is U/S.

 

In any case, I'm not sure where to go from here and fear that necessary remedial work would be beyond me.

 

Ant suggestions, please? 

 

 

That looks to me to be a motor/gearbox  possible a Portescap. I so that is good news. I suspect that the motor moving is not the major issue as the gearbox should be keeping it in mesh. The bad news is some Portescaps suffered from a plastiic gear on the worm shaft which could split. That could be causing erratic drive. This would show as the motor turning but no movement particularly under load. Whereas you say the motor runs erractically. Which suggest either erratic electrical connection, an erratic short or a mechanical problem causing binding or jamming.  Some of these may be outside your current abilities. What it really needs is someone to look it over with you to aid diagnosis. This is not practical under lockdown. I would put it to one side hopefully in the near future you could take it along to a show and get some good advice as to the likely causes. Sending off to someone could get it sorted but you wouldn't learn anything. Having someone investigate alonside you would be more helpful

 

Don