Castle Aching

[Andy Hayter]

23 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

With all due respect, I don't think they can be.  Otherwise there would be a dead short through the brake cross rods, if they are continuous, as they appear to be from the first photo you posted.  Also, from that, it appears to me that the wipers are attached to a piece of  veroboard fixed between the front of the front drivers and so totally separate from the brake rigging. I can't quite make out the details of how the latter is attached.

 

Jim

If you look back 3 pages to James' original picture you will see that the pick up wires do indeed thread through cross wires to the brake rigging.  Wrapped in tape to avoid said dead short, but it looks to me that the brake rodding will indeed require some dismantling.

 

If the wheels were Romfords and with a back to back at 16mm, I would have thought the square section at the end would be visible behind the wheels.   Also although it's been a long time since I bought any Romfords the flanges look far to fine to me  

[Edwardian]

Andy has the right of it. To be clear, the front wheel pick-ups are glued pretty firmly to the brake rigging, so I fear taking the wheels off will be moderately destructive!

[Guy Rixon]

10 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

f the wheels were Romfords and with a back to back at 16mm, I would have thought the square section at the end would be visible behind the wheels.   Also although it's been a long time since I bought any Romfords the flanges look far to fine to me  

16mm back to back would be an EM setting. That would mean new axles for correctly-gauged wheels in OO. There used to be Romfords axles to suit EM, IIRC. But I agree that these are more likely Sharman wheels.

[CKPR]

14 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...the front wheel pick-ups are glued pretty firmly to the brake rigging, so I fear taking the wheels off will be moderately destructive!

Depends what the 'glue' is - if it's cyanoacrylate superglue, then a deft application of the soldering iron will de-polymerise the glue and release the parts [make sure you protect your eyes as the vapours, even in minute quantities, are akin to CS gas]. Similarly, anything like Evostik will respond to heat and soften. Epoxy resin is temperamental when it comes to removing it - you can sometimes just 'ping' it off wires with a scalpel blade, other times you're better off filing it off [encasing electronic components in epoxy resin used to be a common way to prevent competitors working out your circuits - there's a story about an intern at the original Moog factory spending the entire summer filing the epoxy off the circuit board of a rival ARP synthesiser !] and heat again sometimes helps to loosen epoxy resin. Ronson lighter fluid and Plastic Weld have their uses in removing or loosening various glues but the latter will strip almost all forms of paint if you're not careful. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by CKPR

[RodneyS]

I seem to recall that Mike Sharman made axles of different lengths to suit the thickness of the centre bosses.

Sometimes at an exhibition he might run out of the correct length and substitute longer ones for the purchaser to shorten.

If you are using a vice to press wheels on axles it will stop when it reaches the end of the axle and that may not necessarily give the correct back to back.  Packing such as washers over the axles can be used to press the wheels on further but then the axles will project from the wheels.  It may be that a small amount may not matter as long as it doesn't look odd and doesn't foul the coupling rods.

The Sharman wheels had a thin flange and he used to recommend a larger back to back. As long as one wheel cleared the crossing nose when the other wheel was against the check rail that was fine.

So, IF they are Sharman wheels and IF there is sufficient space between the wheels and the frames it MIGHT be possible to push the wheels on further.  Of course that would be very difficult with the rods and brakes in the way.

An alternative solution, and one I would favour, is to leave it alone.  As Annie said, it's a superb  model and would look lovely in a siding or on a shelf.  You could end up spending a lot of time and money on it which might be better spent on the layout so you can run your other locos.

That may not be so much 'fun' but would be easier.

Rodney  

[Edwardian]

18 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

That tells you that the two wheels on that side are not electrically connected, or one or other of the probes is not making good contact.  Give the rims a good clean and check that the back where the wipers contact, and the wipers themselves, are clean.  If you touch the probes to the edge of the flanges and rub you will get better contact than on the rims, especially if the latter are not clean.  If you touch one wheel and the wipers on the same side, then do the same with the other wheel, if you get a 1, then there is poor, or no, electrical continuity between the wiper and that wheel.  This shows how you have to really drill down to try and find where exactly the problem lies.

 

Jim

 

The results remain intermittent. Having done as you suggested, I re-cleaned the inside of the wheels and applied the probes. Sometimes one side registers (today in the 50s-80s), but is often just 1.  The other side is always 1.

 

I have no idea what to do about that.  All I can tell you is that the motor turns when leads are applied to each wheel set and that it wants to move on the track 

 

I will tell you all frankly, I am getting nowhere with the angle of the motor mount issue. I don't know quite what the blu-tack was for and I don't have any. The problem is that, because I cannot get all 4 coupled wheels to stay on the rails at the say time, the chassis won't run for any distance. It is hard to tell in the circumstances what the optimum angle for the motor mount should be.  Once in the body there would be little leeway, so it may be that, if I had the right gauge wheels that stayed on the track, the angle imposed by the body would be fine, but I need to sort the wheels out first.

 

This brings me to what happens when I apply power to the motor terminals.  It runs, as seen in the video clip, and does so apparently regardless of slight variation in the angle of the motor.

 

 

 

There may be many issues, and if cured, the thing will need weight.  I cannot help thinking, however, that if I could only re-gauge the wheels, I'd have a better idea what those issues were and as things stand I'd be pretty optimistic.

 

So, the wheels.

 

 

Obvious once I photographed it, but look how far out of the tyre the bottom right wheel is. Fiddling with these has them both achieve a B2B of approx. 14.8mm-14.9mm, which seems a little on the wide side, but which, as we will see, was enough to keep it on my rails (until it hit my dodgy track join). The wheels are not staying in gauge, though, so something must be done to achieve a permanent correction.

 

The glued pick-ups can also be seen on the picture above.  I fear all this and the brake rigging will have to come off.

 

Here is a picture showing the gears:

 

 

Some little time later ....

 

Anyway, having fiddled with the wheel inserts it sat on the track properly at last.

 

So, I put the body on and ....

 

 

 

This was very cheering, though, clearly, far from perfect, so what might work to improve matters?

 

Update: Somewhat less cheered by the fact that I cannot now reproduce that jerky first run; the loco is showing not desire to more now when power is applied to the track.

 

So what next?

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Edwardian
Update

[Schooner]

Infintely better than where this project started, even with the final update, which you should find heartening  

 

I just wanted to say a quick thanks for sharing your ignorance in one field as freely as your expertise in others. You're far from alone in thinking electricty comes from the darker side of witchcraft, and having this sort of public investigation has been interesting and informative. Thanks also to everyone who has chipped in to help - prime pre-Groupery!

 

Soon she'll run as well as she looks, and then the rest of us will match her livery with envy! 

 

Good luck,

 

Schooner

[CKPR]

The loose tyre confirms the wheels as Sharman or Gibson or similar. As for the variable angle of the motor and gearbox, it's just the result of the gear box 'climbing' around the driving wheel and should have no bearing [no pun intended] on the running or otherwise. A lump or blu-tac or small blob of silicon bath sealant between the underside of the motor and a chassis member will fix this. As for the erratic running, obviously sorting out the B-2-B is crucial and then I would suggest removing the existing pick-ups and fitting new ones to the pcb pick up plate. Iain Rice's advice is good here - fit straight wire [handrail wire will do at a pinch but proper nickel silver wire is preferable] and then bend them individually to shape before trimming off the surplus. Whatever you do, don't try to shape them before fitting them to the chassis. 

 

 I would then investigate the weight distribution because 4-4-0s are just 0-4-4s running in reverse and we all know what proverbial porkers the latter are to get running well. Two things to think about are (1) fitting some weights [I use those self-adhesive 10g and 5g weights - there's a seller on Ebay who does them for £3.95 and free P&P] in the firebox above the driving axle and (2) re-jigging the tender coupling so that the tender is bearing down on the rear of the engine rather than just being towed along. To do this, you need to get the tender to rest on top of a coupling bar / hook/ loop that is attached to the attached to the engine [think of the towing hitch on the back of a car for a caravan] as that way some of the weight of the tender will be transferred on to the driving wheels of the engine, which will markedly improve both roadholding and pick-up.

Edited January 24, 2021 by CKPR

[Andy Hayter]

The lose tyre means that not only is the B2B varying but also the contact to the pick up wire.  It may just be that this is the root of all of the problems.  In one of the still pictures you can clearly see the rear right pick up wire is not making contact.

 

So first fix the lose tyre(s).

Then ensure the pick up wires are in good contact with the metal rims of the driving wheels.

Then another test run.

[Regularity]

46 minutes ago, CKPR said:

The loose tyre confirms the wheels as Sharman or Gibson.

Unlikely to be the former, as Mike Sherman used a nylon centre injected into a rim with a U shaped recess, whereas Alan Gibson, and AGW and Maygib before, and the current production of Alan Gibson Wheels, use separate ABS centres which are a push fit into a stepped steel tyre.

Carefully push the rims back on and then use Loctite Retainer or similar (not superglue which will expand and eventually crack the ABS due to stress) to lock it in place.

[CKPR]

 I'd forgotten about the Sharman wheels being moulded into the tyre. 

[Donw]

I would agree with the Captain apart from the wheels.  If someone wants a bit of lead for weights I have more than enough recovered from a roof for my own needs  and a 1lb piece should cost 1.99 for postage. not quite as convenient as the self adhesive ones i admit. 

 

To me this looks like a model made quite well that has since been mishandled ( a kid pushing it around by hand?) which had caused the problem with the wheels and pickup.

Loctite Retainer comes in different grades and prices anyone got a suggestion for the best option Amazon list 10ml of 603 for £9.14 which I would try but someone may suggest better.

 

Don  

[CKPR]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

To me this looks like a model made quite well that has since been mishandled ( a kid pushing it around by hand?)

I think you might be on to something here as this can be done with a Portescap-powered engine as the wheels on such can be rotated by hand, something that can't be done with a conventional motor and gearbox.

 

Regarding retaining fluid, I've tried own-brand/generics and not had much success with them and would concur with the recommendation to use Loctite 603.

Edited January 24, 2021 by CKPR

[Simond]

Loctite retainer expands on polymerisation, which is catalysed by being in contact with suitable metals.  It too will stress the plastic wheel centre.  it’s particularly bad for plastic wheels on metal axles, probably less risky here.
 

I think I would recommend epoxy resin, but not the 5-minute variety, as you’ll want to mix it and you’ll want ideally to warm everything so it’s a bit runny, because you have very little space to get it in.  You can wipe a tiny drop into the gap between wheel & tyre from the outside, turn the tyre relative to the wheel as you push it back into alignment, to ensure an even coating all around the joint, and then wipe off any which has escaped.

new pickups makes a lot of sense.

 

electrikery is just something else to learn.  You don’t need to goto Hogwarts!

 

atb

Simon

 

 

 

[RodneyS]

I agree with CKPR who has crossed out Sharman wheels.

They had a groove machined in the tyre and the centre was moulded in so ensuring the tyre couldn't fall off.

Gibson wheels do sometimes shed a tyre.    If you put a small amount of glue on the plastic with the point of a pin and push the tyre back on it should hopefully hold it.

Rodney

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Honorable mayor,

 

Another possible solution for fixing the tire. If you don’t want to go all the way with something like epoxy first, it may be worth cutting some extremely thin softwood wedges to put in various places around the tire, to see if it does indeed help. It does sound a bit agricultural I suppose, but might work.

 

 

Douglas

[Northroader]

You were saying that when you did a meter test - wheels to motor, the readings on the one side were erratic, but the other side were consistently good. Any chance of putting a little bit of paper behind d the pickups on the good side and see if they're still good. I’m wondering if the wheels are insulated on the one side, so they do need pickups, but if the other side aren’t insulated  and the current path goes through the axle and frame, and the pickups on that side are unnecessary anyway. (It’s an American way of doing things which you bump into sometimes)

This may also tie in with why you’ve got a loose tire, if there’s a layer of insulation between tire and wheel centre?

anyhow, 48 hours into the job, you’ve learnt a lot more troubleshooting, and it’s moving on the tracks, nice little videos of this.

edit, p.s. studying your picture of the gear train, if you look closely at the pickup for the leading driver on the rhs of the picture, you should spot there’s a gap between the pickup and the tyre, so there’s one needing resetting.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Northroader

[Caley Jim]

I agree with @Andy Hayter, that front pickup is a mile off the tyre.  To fix the loose tyre, once you press it back into position on the wheel centre, put a drop of cyano (superglue) on a non-porous surface (piece of metal or tile is ideal) and then pick up a spot of it on a pin or needle and apply it to the junction of tyre and wheel at a few places around the tyre.  Capillary action will draw it into the joint and after a minute or so it will be secure.  Some of the Loctite products will do the same job.   The wobbly rim may be why it's coming of at the track joint.   Best done from the front to save getting any glue on the back of the tyre.   I think I'm right in saying that many loco builders prefer to set the wipers to rub on the edge of the flange, rather than the back of the tyre as that doesn't catch dirt so readily.  As 2FS locos are generally live frame pick up with no wipers, I have no experience in this area.

 

Jim

[CKPR]

2 hours ago, Simond said:

Loctite retainer expands on polymerisation, which is catalysed by being in contact with suitable metals.  It too will stress the plastic wheel centre.  it’s particularly bad for plastic wheels on metal axles, probably less risky here.

 

I should have added that I've only ever used it for securing brass gears to steel axles when installing 'High Level'  gearboxes.

 

2 hours ago, Simond said:

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by CKPR

[rocor]

16 hours ago, Simond said:

Loctite retainer expands on polymerisation, which is catalysed by being in contact with suitable metals.  It too will stress the plastic wheel centre.  it’s particularly bad for plastic wheels on metal axles, probably less risky here.
 

I think I would recommend epoxy resin, but not the 5-minute variety, as you’ll want to mix it and you’ll want ideally to warm everything so it’s a bit runny, because you have very little space to get it in.  You can wipe a tiny drop into the gap between wheel & tyre from the outside, turn the tyre relative to the wheel as you push it back into alignment, to ensure an even coating all around the joint, and then wipe off any which has escaped.

new pickups makes a lot of sense.

 

electrikery is just something else to learn.  You don’t need to goto Hogwarts!

 

atb

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Regularity]

If this is not our host on his travels, then it should be...

[Nearholmer]

Presumably some sort of inter-modal vehicle, about to be driven down a ramp onto a rowing boat, transforming the latter into a steam-launch. If you look carefully, it also has hitches to allow a balloon to be tethered to it, the exhaust providing hot gasses, and hence lift, and the wheels somehow being connected to a shaft to drive propellers.

 

Did you know that the Mercedes three-pointed star originated that way? Daimler created it as a symbol to indicate that his engine could drive transport in the air (top point), on land, and on water (the lower two points).

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Florence Locomotive Works]

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

If this is not our host on his travels, then it should be...

I’m amazed that tiny little vertical engine could live all that carriage, not to mention the boiler! It looks quite fragile without any proper cast crosshead guides or standards to support the cylinder. On further examination the cylinder does look about 3-4 inches in diameter, so comparing that to a Stuart Models 5a I would say in might develop in the range of 2-5 horsepower at around 350 rpm. 
 

Douglas

[Nearholmer]

They were content with very low powers (=speeds) at that stage. The very earliest i.c. powered vehicles were the same, powers <5hp, but provided the transmission didn't turn too much of it into wear, warmth, and whirring-noises, it was all OK, because they were replacing 1hp horses, which got tired and has to have a rest, which these engines didn't.

 

We could save a heck of a lot of fuel if we went "backwards" to slow vehicles of very low power for urban transport especially - the paradigm of rushing at high speeds between traffic-lights or congestion-points is insane.

[Donw]

It would seem to me to be quite suited to electric propulsion to have low speed vehicles. Some of you may remember the four wheeled bicycles (that's an oxymoron  quad pedal cycles? ) you could hire at holiday camps add a lightweight roof to keep the rain off and it would be ideal for a family getting about town. Minimal polution. Not much good for a run down to cornwall I admit. 

I am convinced that this sort of thinking is necesary to deal with some of the issues we face.

 

Don