Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Dia. 40B 12-wheel Clerestory corridor brake composite, 65'4 1/4'' No.23, a one-off built at Doncaster in 1905

 

Dia. 18C 8-wheel Elliptical corridor third, 53'6'', No.36, built at Doncaster in 1906

 

Dia. 26 12-wheel Clerestory corridor third, 63' 5 1/4'', No. 253, built at Doncaster in 1896

 

Dia. 58 12-wheel Clerestory third dining saloon, 64' 5 3/4'', No. 315, built at Doncaster 1900

 

Dia. 55 12-wheel Clerestory first dining saloon, 62' 0 1/2'', No. 335, built at Doncaster 1902

 

OK I now understand why these carriages are rarely modelled and have not been the subject of kits.

 

They're all different lengths!

 

@chris p bacon may be your man for this - I think he's built some? Also @gr.king and others over on Wright Writes (I know you don't much care for that but they do seem to know their stuff when it comes to the minor railways of Lincolnshire) - however they seem to like putting some strange lettering on them - they have trouble spelling ECJS. What is this LNER of which they speak? It doesn't seem to be a typo for LNWR, which would be the obvious thing.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Compound2632

[webbcompound]

With regard to the ECJS stock this contemporary document describes the new six wheel carriages built in 1893, just before the arrival of twelve wheelers. So are these the six wheelers that are turning up in the 1905 ish trains? Maybe not as they all have side corridors.

1163187491_ecjr6wheelstock.pdf

Edited March 22, 2021 by webbcompound

[Compound2632]

I would imagine that like the first Great Western corridor set trains, they were rather quickly rebuilt with centre gangways once general service gangwayed carriages began to appear. This "corridor set train" approach had a bit of a vogue - the first Midland corridor trains (in fact M&GW and M&NB Joint Stock) had brake vans with a gangway at one end only. These were also quite quickly modified!

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

With regard to the ECJS stock this contemporary document describes the new six wheel carriages built in 1893, just before the arrival of twelve wheelers. So are these the six wheelers that are turning up in the 1905 ish trains? Maybe not as they all have side corridors.

1163187491_ecjr6wheelstock.pdf 2.5 MB · 4 downloads

 

IIRC, the first EC bogie services in the 1890s initially retained 6-wheelers for the catering sets.

 

EDIT: They were changed to centre connections where built with side ones.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

OK I now understand why these carriages are rarely modelled and have not been the subject of kits.

 

They're all different lengths!

 

@chris p bacon may be your man for this - I think he's built some? Also @gr.king and others over on Wright Writes (I know you don't much care for that but they do seem to know their stuff when it comes to the minor railways of Lincolnshire) - however they seem to like putting some strange lettering on them - they have trouble spelling ECJS. What is this LNER of which they speak? It doesn't seem to be a typo for LNWR, which would be the obvious thing.

 

Precisely. You couldn't, in a million years, tool for a rake of these. 

 

EDIT, plus the fact that, though Doncaster took the lead during this phase, there were York and Cowlairs built vehicles.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Edwardian

[webbcompound]

Mark Tatlow has made an etch for the bogies for these coaches. All you need to do is scratchbuild the rest! He said (back in 2016)  that they were available if you contacted him via www.highlandmiscellany.com. There is also a nice photo of an Atlantic pulling a rake of six twelve wheelers in the link  https://highlandmiscellany.com/2016/05/22/going-long-part-1-the-underframe/

 

I would say snap up any bits you see. When I was still employed and had money I failed to buy the kits for the entire LNWR Corridor twelve wheelers (Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen sections) which were available for a couple of years. Then, as these things do, things changed hands and the kits have disappearted from the face of the earth.

Edited March 22, 2021 by webbcompound

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

Mark Tatlow has made an etch for the bogies for these coaches. All you need to do is scratchbuild the rest! He said (back in 2016)  that they were available if you contacted him via www.highlandmiscellany.com. There is also a nice photo of an Atlantic pulling a rake of six twelve wheelers in the link  https://highlandmiscellany.com/2016/05/22/going-long-part-1-the-underframe/

 

I would say snap up any bits you see. When I was still employed and had money I failed to buy the kits for the entire LNWR Corridor twelve wheelers (Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen sections) which were available for a couple of years. Then, as these things do, things changed hands and the kits have disappearted from the face of the earth.

 

Great page.

 

I note the comment re the bogies "I will describe the building of the bogies in the next installment, they are not for the faint-hearted!"

 

Perhaps a 3D print might be more sympathetic to my limitations! 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Great page.

 

Though I doubt the statement that there was an ECJS Company. The nature of the Joint Stock arrangements I'm familiar with (WCJS / MSJS / M&GSW / M&NB) was that they were overseen by a committee of directors from the companies involved and the rolling stock was the joint property of the partner companies. I'm not sure how the accounting was done - possibly each company had a line in its accounts for its share of the stock. Joint Committee minutes for the M&GSW Joint Committee are in The National Archives [RAIL 486/1-3, from the dates this must include the MSJS] but I can see no sign of M&NB minutes - perhaps these are in the same books. I can't see anything for the WCJS; for the East Coast Conference there's RAIL 172/1-20.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I don't know. The obvious thing would be to join the line society and see.  I have relatively quickly found This

 

My aim is to arrive at a 'typical' or appropriate East Coast formation for the c.1905 period. I want to plan something the GNR C1 Atlantic can pull.  This means a train firmly within the 12-wheel clerestory era, and before the new 1914 stock.

 

I don't need to have the exact diagram, though that's a helpful detail, or the exact number.  It just needs to be credible and representative.

 

Turning to the East Fortune train, this was the 2.20pm Down (King's Cross to Edinburgh).

 

It comprised:

 

Dia. 40B 12-wheel Clerestory corridor brake composite, 65'4 1/4'' No.23, a one-off built at Doncaster in 1905

 

Dia. 18C 8-wheel Elliptical corridor third, 53'6'', No.36, built at Doncaster in 1906

 

Dia. 26 12-wheel Clerestory corridor third, 63' 5 1/4'', No. 253, built at Doncaster in 1896

 

Dia. 58 12-wheel Clerestory third dining saloon, 64' 5 3/4'', No. 315, built at Doncaster 1900

 

Dia. 55 12-wheel Clerestory first dining saloon, 62' 0 1/2'', No. 335, built at Doncaster 1902

 

Bogie First class - Both 8 and 12-wheel options

 

Bogie Brake van - This could well have been one of Cowlairs built 8-wheelers built 1901-1903  

 

 

 

 

 

What the above gives me is a nice sample formation to base a train on.  I will have to research the one-off brake composite, as such it may well be a replacement vehicle.  I would be minded to substitute an earlier vehicle.

 

The non-clerestory third is unsuitable as too new; I want to stick to the clerestories built up to 1905, so another earlier, 12-wheel third is called for. 

 

For the First, again, I would choose a 12-wheel diagram

 

For the concluding van, an 8-wheel Cowlairs van of 1901 to Dia.42 (IIRC) (for which there is a drawing in Hoole).

[chris p bacon]

I'm not a font of knowledge regarding train formations but if you contact Steve White (GNRS Publications or on LNER Forum) he has.

 

Re the 12 wheelers, I did a simple etch for the bogies a while ago which works ok, Greame King used them under his resin version and I will use them under some etched ones which are on the drawing board 'to do' list.

 

I'm currently working my through the GN postal vans and rather more obscure non passenger vans.

 

[webbcompound]

With regard to whether either of the Joint Stock entities were companies, this is merely a terminological issue. They were unincorporated, as intially were all Joint Stock companies but by virtue of operating they were companies. They had boards, they had assets (funded by and apportioned apportioned to the companies which made up the board in a formal agreement which to all intents and purposes defined the relative stock holding), and they had potential liabilities.

 

Being unincorporated each of the participant companies had in principle unlimited liability, but in practice any situation in which a liability was likely to be incurred would be found to be the responsibility of the company constructing the rolling stock, or operating the locomotive, or the track and signalling. the only exception to this would have been if an item of rolling stock incurred an entry on the railway Clearing House Mileage Suspension Account by travelling on the rails of a company which was not a member of the relevant joint stock company.

 

The rolling stock was funded by the aforementioned apportionment, but in the case of the WCJS was all manufactured by the LNWR. Somewhere in the accounts of Wolverton will be the income from the Caledonian Company relating to the 36.54% cost of the stock. I am not familiar with the equivalent agreement between the three East Coast companies.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

the only exception to this would have been if an item of rolling stock incurred an entry on the railway Clearing House Mileage Suspension Account by travelling on the rails of a company which was not a member of the relevant joint stock company.

 

That would be routine, since all three routes ran joint stock carriages to Inverness.

 

I suppose it would also apply to M&GSW stock between Carlisle and Gretna Junction, and M&NB and ECJS between Kinnaber Junction and Aberdeen, although I suppose in just the same way as ordinary G&SWR or NBR stock; I've no idea what the toll arrangements were when running powers were being exercised; presumably the RCH was involved.

 

Another complication is through non-joint stock: for example, the sleeping carriages on the St Pancras - Glasgow and Stranraer services were Midland vehicles not M&GSW joint stock. I think that as the G&SW was getting revenue from these, they were being hired. Certainly I think this must have been the arrangement for Midland carriages working to Bournemouth over the S&DJR since there were a number of S&DJR carriages working between Bristol and Derby / Nottingham (my information is for 1911 but this applied for some years either side, I believe) My working assumption is that this was to balance the mileage of Midland vehicles south of Bath, as payment in kind rather than imposing a substantial cash payment.

[Caley Jim]

15 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

..... I will ask on the CRA forum and see what I can find out.

First response to my query re 2pm Down Corridor :-

'From the WTT Summer 1907, page 23, columns 169-172 for The Afternoon Corridor shows 2 trains departing Carlisle at 8.13pm for Glasgow/Edinburgh and 8.42pm for Glasgow/Perth.
The 8.13pm arrives Strawfank Junction at 9.41pm and departs 9.43pm for Glasgow and 9.47pm for Edinburgh.
The 8.42pm arrives Carstairs 10.14pm and departs 10.17pm for Glasgow and 10.25pm for Perth.
How to interpret this?
I assume (dangerous!) that the 8.13 is the main train from Euston and the 8.42 has the Manchester/ Liverpool carriages marshalled in at Preston.
The LNWR Marshalling Circular for Summer 1910 shows the Aberdeen Break Composite marshalled behind the Edinburgh portion leaving Euston but seems to be part of the great remarshalling at Preston into the second train.
This second train departs Preston at 6.40pm marshalled Manchester to Glasgow/Liverpool to Glasgow/Liverpool to Edinburgh/Manchester to Edinburgh/Manchester to Aberdeen/London to Aberdeen/London to Whitehaven.
Some of this seems contradictory but different dates and possible further remarshalling at Carlisle might account for the differences but Carstairs does seem to be splitting point for the Aberdeen portion. but it seems to be behind the Edinburgh coaches and Glasgow coaches at different parts of the journey.

 

It would appear therefore that the division of the Corridor took place at Carstairs and it was only the Liverpool and Manchester trains which were marshalled together at Preston along with the Aberdeen brake compo off the Corridor, this latter train then being split at Carstairs.

Strawfrank Junction is the southern end of the Carstairs triangle, named after the farm which was the only habitation until the coming of the railway, and which still exists today, surrounded by Carstairs Junction Village (which is not to be confused with Carstairs Village!).

 

I will report on any further information.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

That's interesting. I'd assumed that the division at Preston was into a Glasgow train and an Edinburgh train, each gaining carriages from Liverpool and Manchester, with the Aberdeen carriages attached to one or the other. 

[Donw]

The usual practice where the was a regular through carriage service was to try to balance out the use of both companies coaches. I know Cambrian coaches worked through to Manchester to Balance the coaches running through to Barmouth and Pwllheli. If you could make it so the lilleage by each companies coaches balanced out there was no need to get involved in comparative costs etc.

 

Don 

[Compound2632]

Just now, Donw said:

The usual practice where the was a regular through carriage service was to try to balance out the use of both companies coaches. I know Cambrian coaches worked through to Manchester to Balance the coaches running through to Barmouth and Pwllheli. If you could make it so the lilleage by each companies coaches balanced out there was no need to get involved in comparative costs etc.

 

Yes, though in the Midland / S&DJR case I mentioned, the S&DJR carriages weren't working through from the S&DJR to the Midland, they were being used for purely Midland services originating at Bristol. 

 

Another example would be the Midland's Southampton through carriage via Cheltenham and the M&SWJR - there was certainly no balanced working of a M&SWJR carriage northwards. In 1911, this carriage ran to Manchester London Road, by LNW train from Birmingham.

 

A counter-example illustrating balanced working was the Manchester - Dover & Deal service, which saw a SECR birdcage brake composite working to Central.

[Caley Jim]

32 minutes ago, Donw said:

The usual practice where the was a regular through carriage service was to try to balance out the use of both companies coaches. I know Cambrian coaches worked through to Manchester to Balance the coaches running through to Barmouth and Pwllheli. If you could make it so the lilleage by each companies coaches balanced out there was no need to get involved in comparative costs etc.

This was the case with the Glasgow-Bristol via Severn Tunnel service, run jointly by the CR and GWR, each companies coaches working day about.  The CR had a dedicated coach lettered along the eves panels for the service.  I would presume both companies would have to make a payment to the LNWR for the Carlisle -Crewe-Shrewsbury legs.

 

Jim

 

[Caley Jim]

Further information from the CRA forum, courtesy of Mike Williams :-

'In the July 1913 carriage marshalling circular (in other words height of season/maximum load time) the 8.13 pm from Carlisle comprised the Edinburgh and Glasgow portions of the 2.00 pm from Euston. It was divided at Strawfrank Junction. At the front of the Glasgow portion were a brake Composite from Blackpool and on Mondays a brake Third from Birmingham. On Saturdays two milk vans were hung on the back of the Edinburgh portion at Beattock.

It was followed by the 8.48 pm from Carlisle, also described as the 2.00 pm from Euston. This was the 6.40 from Preston, where the Liverpool and Manchester portions were combined. The train divided at Carstairs. As well as one brake Composite each from Liverpool Exchange and Manchester, the Edinburgh bound section included, in order, a brake Composite Carstairs - Perth, a brake van Manchester - Aberdeen, a 65ft brake Composite London - Aberdeen (both off the previous train), a Post Office Carlisle - Aberdeen, a brake Composite from Carlisle that was slipped at Lockerbie, a Carlisle - Dundee milk van and a Stranraer milk van, both attached at Beattock.

Mind-boggling, especially at Beattock.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

So there was a small concession to Grayrigg, Shap, and Beattock by way of shedding the Aberdeen portion from the main train at Preston, nullified by butting that Blackpool coach on the front - though that wouldn't have been a 65'6" 12-wheeler like the Aberdeen coach.

[Edwardian]

Meanwhile, back in Norfolk ...

 

As I've said before, I'm perfectly prepared to bring the build date of the Colman's covered wagons forward a few years in the alternative history of of CA.

 

It also occurred that, if there was a site of crops conveniently served by the WNR, the WNR might hire covered wagons to Colman's, so we could have some freelance Colman's vans?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

It also occurred that, if there was a site of crops conveniently served by the WNR, the WNR might hire covered wagons to Colman's, so we could have some freelance Colman's vans?

 

See my observations on that Coleman's thread. It's sheeted cattle wagons for you. Your covered goods wagons are at a premium, if you're typical, whereas if you're anything like the M&GN you're awash with cattle wagons, a good proportion of which are standing idle except on market days. The crop is seasonal. 

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

See my observations on that Coleman's thread. It's sheeted cattle wagons for you. Your covered goods wagons are at a premium, if you're typical, whereas if you're anything like the M&GN you're awash with cattle wagons, a good proportion of which are standing idle except on market days. The crop is seasonal. 

 

Oh no I'm not!

 

See mine:

 

 

 

 

(I can have the vans built earlier than 1908 if I want! I have, after all, moved shale oil exploration in Norfolk forward by about a decade (my world, my rules!).  Especially now I've worked out how to get the vans to Carrow Works via the West Norfolk!  Don't worry, the GER will be left with the outgoing mustard, to London via Ely then Cambridge, I should think.) 

 

The WNR may conveniently take traffic from the Fenland districts via its end-on junction with the GER at Magdalen Road-Trinity Hallsend, and thence takes a more direct route to the small compact city terminus at Norwich West.

 

 

There is not room for extensive goods facilities at the WN's Norwich West terminus, however, so what we clearly need is a goods line skirting the then (1880s) outskirts of Norwich to join the GER as on the annotated map.

 

 

 

 

This allows both significant livestock traffic off the WN to be handled, but also gives access to the Colman's Carrow Works, perfect for inbound Fenland mustard seed traffic. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

As you will; of course the WNR opened up territory that was subsequently laid down to mustard in response to Colman's growing demand, reducing the need for Indian imports. How did this impact the lavender industry?

 

I'm wrestling with my conscience over Colman's coal wagons, also of 1908. (I've already got a Cadbury's wagon that is of similar date.) The suggested route for anthracite was Gurnos - Hereford - Worcester - Birmingham - Wigston - Peterborough.

 

As to comestible wagons in general, I've been relishing making saucy remarks about the recent activities of your South Yorkshire friends. 

 

 

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As you will; of course the WNR opened up territory that was subsequently laid down to mustard in response to Colman's growing demand, reducing the need for Indian imports. How did this impact the lavender industry?

 

I'm wrestling with my conscience over Colman's coal wagons, also of 1908. (I've already got a Cadbury's wagon that is of similar date.) The suggested route for anthracite was Gurnos - Hereford - Worcester - Birmingham - Wigston - Peterborough.

 

As to comestible wagons in general, I've been relishing making saucy remarks about the recent activities of your South Yorkshire friends. 

 

 

 

Yep, that's really a Sheffield thing. Never seen it on a shop shelf or tasted a drop, but I am content with Worcestershire Sauce. 

 

I don't think there were mustard seed imports from India.  As per my Colman thread post, I think the evidence, so far at least, points to a move from whatever the GER was supplying - sheeted cattle wagons it seems - to a Colman's fleet on the inland seed traffic from the Fens.

 

All I need to do (in addition to the previous re-invention of Norfolk complete with new towns and villages, new railway companies, advanced shale oil industry, new RDCs, parishes and deanaries, and an entire 2-battalion regiment of the British Army)  is to suppose Colman's acquired its vans so 3-4 years earlier than they did.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

to suppose Colman's acquired its vans so 3-4 years earlier than they did.

 

Well, that had been my initial reaction: