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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Oh no I'm not!

 

See mine:

 

 

 

 

(I can have the vans built earlier than 1908 if I want! I have, after all, moved shale oil exploration in Norfolk forward by about a decade (my world, my rules!).  Especially now I've worked out how to get the vans to Carrow Works via the West Norfolk!  Don't worry, the GER will be left with the outgoing mustard, to London via Ely then Cambridge, I should think.) 

 

The WNR may conveniently take traffic from the Fenland districts via its end-on junction with the GER at Magdalen Road-Trinity Hallsend, and thence takes a more direct route to the small compact city terminus at Norwich West.

 

1175616545_WNRMap-Copy-Copy-Copy.jpeg.f06e85852d61ead0ec112b76e57d61bc.jpeg

 

There is not room for extensive goods facilities at the WN's Norwich West terminus, however, so what we clearly need is a goods line skirting the then (1880s) outskirts of Norwich to join the GER as on the annotated map.

 

 

 

403148087_NorwichStationMapWNR-GoodsChord.gif.fabaccdae866a3a59aaa39bbd26ecda9.gif

 

This allows both significant livestock traffic off the WN to be handled, but also gives access to the Colman's Carrow Works, perfect for inbound Fenland mustard seed traffic. 

 

Picture1.png.b3d3abaf09fc90adc21fa9e17f30772a.png

 

 

 

 

A slogan for the WNR Marketing department.  "Norfolk: More Railways than Birmingham has Canals!"

 

:whistle:

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1 minute ago, Hroth said:

A slogan for the WNR Marketing department.  "Norfolk: More Railways than Birmingham has Canals!"

:whistle:

 

Birmingham has (or had) more miles of canal than has Venice but not, I think, more canal companies than Norfolk had railway companies, if you count constituent companies of the GE and of the M&GN, even without the WNR. Other points of similarity to Venice include: rising water level (since Ansell's Brewery closed); and a campanile, though the one in Birmingham is older than the Venetian one.

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8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Birmingham has (or had) more miles of canal than has Venice but not, I think, more canal companies than Norfolk had railway companies, if you count constituent companies of the GE and of the M&GN, even without the WNR. Other points of similarity to Venice include: rising water level (since Ansell's Brewery closed); and a campanile, though the one in Birmingham is older than the Venetian one.

 

Well, only because it fell down and they had to put it up again.  It remains to be seen if Brum's version will last a millennium!

 

EDIT: Loughborough is not to be outdone:

 

24099367.jpg.2770d277c3c9348d8c71104671db9c45.jpg

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

There is not room for extensive goods facilities at the WN's Norwich West terminus, however, so what we clearly need is a goods line skirting the then (1880s) outskirts of Norwich to join the GER as on the annotated map.

 

 

 

403148087_NorwichStationMapWNR-GoodsChord.gif.fabaccdae866a3a59aaa39bbd26ecda9.gif

 

 The siting of your Norwich West station, according to the map, places it almost at the West door of the Cathedral.

Having lived in Norfolk for almost forty years, almost long enough to be accepted despite the Yorkshire accent, and having sung evensong in the cathedral on a number of occasions, I would consider that I had a passing knowledge of the proposed site, if the map is correct.

 

The station, as shown would have been inordinately expensive to contemplate because the route smashes a swathe through Medieval Norwich.

Apart from the astronomical costs that would have been involved in acquiring the properties I doubt that the ecclesiastical authorities or the city's fathers would have contenanced such wanton destruction, simply to incorporate a fourth station.

 

If you look at the sites of the GER and M&GN stations on the old OS maps it is clear that they were built outside the built up area of the city at the time.

I suspect, as well, that both areas were prone to flooding before the railway came.

 

There  was plenty of space out at Earlham, roughly where the WNR junction is on your proposed lines map.

It would seem more likely, however, that  such a line would have stayed in the Yare valley and run to a station near Cringleford or Eaton.

It could have built a terminus there without too much difficlty and put in a connecting chord to the Ely line without the need to burrow underneath the London line.

 

Just a thought as some-one who studied aspects of townscapes for a PhD, although I appreciate that Rule 1 applies.

I am afraid that I have an aversion to seeing model stations plonked down in the middle of pre-exisitng communities in very unlikely circumstances!

The back streets location, for me, is one of the features that contributes towards the realism of Jas Millham's Yaxham and Martin Goodall's (?) Burford..

 

Ian T

 

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12 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

 The siting of your Norwich West station, according to the map, places it almost at the West door of the Cathedral.

 

The siting of the WNR Norwich Station was discussed in some detail last October. This post discusses the relationship to the Cathedral and other buildings; earlier posts discussed other aspects of the site and approaches, as I recall:

 

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

The siting of the WNR Norwich Station was discussed in some detail last October.

 Thanks for that info.

I will have a look.

I don.t keep close tabs on this thread.

 

Ian T

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11 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

 The siting of your Norwich West station, according to the map, places it almost at the West door of the Cathedral.

Having lived in Norfolk for almost forty years, almost long enough to be accepted despite the Yorkshire accent, and having sung evensong in the cathedral on a number of occasions, I would consider that I had a passing knowledge of the proposed site, if the map is correct.

 

The station, as shown would have been inordinately expensive to contemplate because the route smashes a swathe through Medieval Norwich.

Apart from the astronomical costs that would have been involved in acquiring the properties I doubt that the ecclesiastical authorities or the city's fathers would have contenanced such wanton destruction, simply to incorporate a fourth station.

 

If you look at the sites of the GER and M&GN stations on the old OS maps it is clear that they were built outside the built up area of the city at the time.

I suspect, as well, that both areas were prone to flooding before the railway came.

 

There  was plenty of space out at Earlham, roughly where the WNR junction is on your proposed lines map.

It would seem more likely, however, that  such a line would have stayed in the Yare valley and run to a station near Cringleford or Eaton.

It could have built a terminus there without too much difficlty and put in a connecting chord to the Ely line without the need to burrow underneath the London line.

 

Just a thought as some-one who studied aspects of townscapes for a PhD, although I appreciate that Rule 1 applies.

I am afraid that I have an aversion to seeing model stations plonked down in the middle of pre-exisitng communities in very unlikely circumstances!

The back streets location, for me, is one of the features that contributes towards the realism of Jas Millham's Yaxham and Martin Goodall's (?) Burford..

 

Ian T

 

 

Everything about the West Norfolk Railway is unlikely. Though one of the first railways in Norfolk, its dash to Norwich was neck and neck with the Lynn & Fakenham at the beginning of the 1880s. 

 

As I type, I see that Stephen has beaten me to it in linking our earlier discussions. Suffice to say here that Norwich West occupies a former chalk pit that, in our alternative history, had not become the Plantation Gardens.  Later, the RC cathedral was built next door. 

 

There was no need to demolish anything, let alone anything mediaeval.  Looking at the extent of suburban growth in the south-westerly direction in the 1880s, I recall we had a pretty clear path.   

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This post discusses the relationship to the Cathedral

 

Having being directed to the proposals and looked at the map I suspect that we are talking a little at cross purposes.

The WNR proposals refer to the Roman Catholic cathedral which, impressive as it is, is not "Norwich Cathedral" in the generally accepted sense.

 

The Roman Catholic building is, as noted in the October proposals, on a hill slightly to the west of the city centre. 

The Anglican cathedral is closer to the Medieval core, down by the river.

This is the cathedral marked on the railway map.

 

Hope that confusion this explains my initial scepticism over the choice of site.

 

Ian T

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5 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

The WNR proposals refer to the Roman Catholic cathedral which, impressive as it is, is not "Norwich Cathedral" in the generally accepted sense.

 

That would depend upon to whom you were speaking. As in other cities where there are dual episcopates, it can be helpful to refer explicitly to the Anglican and RC Cathedrals - especially in places where the Anglican diocese post-dates the RC diocese, such as Liverpool, Birmingham, or Portsmouth. I concede that that's not the case in Norwich, which is an ancient diocese with a continuous history through the Reformation period.

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56 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

Having being directed to the proposals and looked at the map I suspect that we are talking a little at cross purposes.

The WNR proposals refer to the Roman Catholic cathedral which, impressive as it is, is not "Norwich Cathedral" in the generally accepted sense.

 

The Roman Catholic building is, as noted in the October proposals, on a hill slightly to the west of the city centre. 

The Anglican cathedral is closer to the Medieval core, down by the river.

This is the cathedral marked on the railway map.

 

Hope that confusion this explains my initial scepticism over the choice of site.

 

Ian T

 

Ha!  Because I have been so focused on the site of the WN Norwich terminal, I was thinking only of the RC Cathedral.

 

And me an Anglican!

 

Never fear, not going to bulldoze mediaeval Norwich

 

norwich-cathedral-paul-hurst.jpg.adbad0c19bbed66ae575426dc339c2f1.jpg

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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34 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I was thinking only of the RC Cathedral.

 I have to admit that I have never been inside the building but I do have an off topic anecdote.

 

Some-one I once sang with had had a relative who was a chorister (man not boy) there some time during the early twentieth century.

It was during an era when long sermons were the norm.

The accepted practice on Sunday morning, apparently, was for the men to slope off and have a shave during the sermon.

The stalls were tall enough to allow this.

 

Except that, inevitably, a vising preacher finished early, the hymn was announced and there was no underlay because the men were in the vestry!

 

Beats being in the pub, I suppose, which is where Wesley apparently retired to during the sermons, when he was organist at Hereford.

 

Ian T

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26 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

Beats being in the pub, I suppose, which is where Wesley apparently retired to during the sermons, when he was organist at Hereford.

 

Samuel Sebastian, I suppose, not his grandfather!

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1 hour ago, Adam88 said:

It pleases me that Edwardian is one of the few people left who can spell mediaeval correctly.  I can imagine where he stands on the AD/BC and the whatever they want to replace it with debate.

 

Ha! Not so long ago, someone suggested I was possibly the last person alive to refer to one of these

 

london-general-omnibus-company-phot-lt-museum.jpg.19bdef01fc60a675f421c2364e2b4192.jpg

 

as a 'bus. 

 

I have my funny little ways, it seems, even though my 'pooter's spellchecker takes issue with my verandahs and rooves!

 

EDIT: PS, you might enjoy this ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Speaking of railways with Ecclesiastical entanglements, the Potteries, Shrewsbury and North Wales Railway (aka "Potts") snuggled up to Shrewsbury Abbey, probably on Brother Cadfaels Herb Patch...

 

1 hour ago, Adam88 said:

It pleases me that Edwardian is one of the few people left who can spell mediaeval correctly.  I can imagine where he stands on the AD/BC and the whatever they want to replace it with debate.

 

There's those who want to denominate AD as AC, and those who inclusively prefer CE.

 

I'll stick with the Venomous Bede.

 

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12 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

......

 

All I need to do (in addition to the previous re-invention of Norfolk complete with new towns and villages, new railway companies, advanced shale oil industry, new RDCs, parishes and deanaries, and an entire 2-battalion regiment of the British Army)  is to suppose Colman's acquired its vans so 3-4 years earlier than they did.

 

Put like that and you could justify anything

 

Don

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