Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

Hullo, sorry, bit slow off the mark. No answers, but perhaps of interest are:

• A bit on Kingswear and coal
• A nice little reference for (modern) maritime tonnages

If it helps visualise, I think of a narrowboat as taking 30 tons of coal; a large barge or lighter <100t; a sailing coaster c.200t and collier brig <500t. No sources for that I'm afraid. Possibly next week though, if still of any use?

 

Another avenue of investigation follows the info in the Lloyd's Register Heritage and Education Centre's digitised records. Follow for a quick example.

 

Fascinating stuff as ever, enjoyed the catch up. Cheers all!

 

Thanks Schooner, you have confirmed and expanded my scant knowledge of matters nautical.  I always bear in mind that this is such a world apart with some much language, practice and hardware that is very alien to landlubbers. 

 

And if you call for a song of the sea
We'll heave the capstan round
With a yeo heave ho, for the wind is free
Her anchor's a-trip and her helm's a-lee
Hurrah for the homeward bound!

 

Rest assured, the provision of information is very seldom time-limited; it's not like I have a model layout of Wolfringham Staithe nearing completion with an exhibition deadline looming!

 

Now there's an idea!

 

4 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I did a little research on the gas works within the LBSCR area, and over two-thirds of them had no direct rail connection! Major works such as at Sutton and Mitcham were some distance from the nearest railway yard, and presumably there were fleets of horse drawn carts, and later steam and diesel lorries, to transport the coal and coke through the neighbouring high streets.

 

Yes, many town gas works were happily sited away from railways.  A GER-area example is the Fenland town of Whittelesy (or, if you are the GE, Whittlesea).

 

Perhaps coal demands were not that onerous?

 

Coal demands were relatively high, however, for the Tees Cottage pumping station in Darlington, a long, slow, cart journey from the railhead. 

 

4 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

At places like Bognor, the practice of receiving coal from beached sailing boats persisted well into the twentieth century.

 

That, and the Robin Hood's bay practice (late enough in the day to be photographed) is a powerful reminder of how relatively primitive arrangements were in many place surprisingly late in the day.  Fascinating.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

58 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

We'll heave the capstan round

For years I thought that was "Captain" not "capstan".

[Compound2632]

A reason for a town's gas works not being rail connected and sited at an inconvenient distance from the station can be that it was built before the railway. This was the case in Sutton Coldfield, where a small gas works was built in 1855, seven years before the opening of the branch line from Aston. An article on the rise and fall of that gas works here: https://sclhrg.org.uk/images/stories/proceedings/V4-Spring_1997-3.pdf.

 

[Nearholmer]

Small gasworks had small pumps, and limited networks of pipes, and were ideally situated near the centre of the area they served (lots weren’t), and given that on a lot of towns the railway station wasn’t central, that might cause the two to be far apart. 
 

The same considerations applied to the tiny little generating stations built by some early electric light companies.

 

Our local gasworks was fairly large, and slap bang next to the railway, but had no siding, which seems a bit perverse. My father and the gasworks manager had been in the same unit (signals) during WW2 and shared the logical follow-on hobbies of ham radio and tape recording, so we used to visit the gasworks house quite often - upper bedrooms were at railway track level, and one of the boys and I used to squeeze onto a top bunk to see out of a tiny window to watch train wheels pass in front of us. I was very small at the time, but can remember huge 2-6-4 standard tanks, and one Fairburn 2-6-4T (that’s what the elder boy said it was anyway).

Edited September 11, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Today, wagon sheets!

 

Please don't neglect the pleas for more sample tare weights for the 2, 3 and 6 1/2 planks wooden u/f 15' WNR wagons!

 

But, also, I must now consider wagon sheets. 

 

Based on previous musings, where pictures of goods trains are considered, I think that a minimum of 50% opens with sheet loads seems reasonable.

 

This leads me to considering whether Parishioners can give guidance on:

 

- Appropriate dimensions for a wagon sheet of the period;

 

- Details of numbers an position of eyelets, ropes, etc

 

- Examples of sheeted loads, appearance and tying off.  NB the WNR does not employ high-ended and/or sheet-railed wagons.  Some GER examples are shown below, but, really, examples could come from anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-  Finally, I must give thought to lettering, symbols etc for WNR sheets.  Some, I know, had saltire crosses (in white or red). I have quite a strong desire to include the Dodo illiteracy symbol, though perhaps this would be overdoing things?  if not, would a monochrome version be more credible?

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

But, also, I must now consider wagon sheets. 

 

Based on previous musings, where pictures of goods trains are considered, I think that a minimum of 50% opens with sheet loads seems reasonable.

 

This leads me to considering whether Parishioners can give guidance on:

 

- Appropriate dimensions for a wagon sheet of the period;

 

- Details of numbers an position of eyelets, ropes, etc

 

- Examples of sheeted loads, appearance and tying off.  NB the WNR does not employ high-ended and/or sheet-railed wagons.  Some GER examples are shown below, but, really, examples could come from anywhere. 

 

Ah, now there you've got me on a hobby-horse! Nice selection of photos.

 

As far as I can work out, sheets were standardised (Through one of the RCH committees no doubt - Wagon Superintendents or Goods Managers?) - 21'0" x 14'4". They were made from five long strips of material, so had four equispaced longitudinal seams. There were 16 eyelets around the edge of the sheet - one in each corner and then evenly spaced along the sides. There were also an additional three eyelets on each side mounted in triangular flaps sewn into the first seam on each side - these can be seen in use in your first photo, with the sheet furled up. 

 

Here's one of mine - without an attempt to depict the triangular flaps, but with the sheet ties made from grey sewing thread and glued in place by dipping the end in a drop of cyanoacrylate:

 

 

My particular bugbear is when folk try to make their wagon sheets detachable from the wagon - they're reluctant to cover up their handiwork, especially if they've detailed the interior. This results in a unprototypical appearance. I have come to the view that one has to model wagon and sheet (or wagon and load, or wagon, load, and sheet) as a single entity. Then you can stick the ends of the tie ropes to the positions of the (imaginary) cleats or rings on the solebar and headstock (or lower planks of the sides and ends in some cases) and lash the whole thing down with ropes per your second photo. I'm rather proud of this group, based on a photo of Vastern Road yard, Reading, c. 1905, but backdated a couple of years for my purposes:

 

 

For general advice on loading and sheeting, the BR instructions provide a distillation of a century or more of experience and best practice, as far as I can work out:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20424_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20425_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf

With thanks to the Barromore Model Railway Group for making these available on there website.

 

I see no reason why WNR sheets should not bear the mark of the dodo but I think that it would be a white stencil. At one period, the Great Western used the angel's wing from the arms of the City of London, just visible here:

 

[Compound2632]

Sheets and ropes were as tightly controlled as wagons. If a foreign wagon was received, not only did it have to be returned to its home system promptly but any sheets and ropes had to go back with it - not only the sheets but also the ropes were numbered, on their ferules, and woven with a distinctive pattern of coloured threads for each company. All this generated mountains of paperwork, not only through the RCH but also internally within the company.

 

A sheet seems to typically have been in service for around 15 - 21 months before it had to go back to the company's sheet factory (a building like a sail loft) for maintenance and re-proofing. The dates of issue and due for return were stencilled on the sheet, one in white and one in red - the latter not showing up in photos at all, of course, and the latter rarely visible. I rejected this sheet as no good for c. 1902:

 

 

It's only useable if you are modelling the period May 1920 to February 1921!

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, now there you've got me on a hobby-horse! Nice selection of photos.

 

As far as I can work out, sheets were standardised (Through one of the RCH committees no doubt - Wagon Superintendents or Goods Managers?) - 21'0" x 14'4". They were made from five long strips of material, so had four equispaced longitudinal seams. There were 16 eyelets around the edge of the sheet - one in each corner and then evenly spaced along the sides. There were also an additional three eyelets on each side mounted in triangular flaps sewn into the first seam on each side - these can be seen in use in your first photo, with the sheet furled up. 

 

Thank you, text book answer. 

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Here's one of mine - without an attempt to depict the triangular flaps, but with the sheet ties made from grey sewing thread and glued in place by dipping the end in a drop of cyanoacrylate:

 

 

Hmm, even more rope than I feared, but that's the way to do it!

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

My particular bugbear is when folk try to make their wagon sheets detachable from the wagon - they're reluctant to cover up their handiwork, especially if they've detailed the interior. This results in a unprototypical appearance. I have come to the view that one has to model wagon and sheet (or wagon and load, or wagon, load, and sheet) as a single entity. Then you can stick the ends of the tie ropes to the positions of the (imaginary) cleats or rings on the solebar and headstock (or lower planks of the sides and ends in some cases) and lash the whole thing down with ropes per your second photo.

 

 

Oh, I agree.  I reckon, though, that I have enough similar WNR opens that it will not be a problem if around half are permanently sheeted. Those wagons must enter and leave the goods yards with (different) sheeted loads, that's all!

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm rather proud of this group, based on a photo of Vastern Road yard, Reading, c. 1905, but backdated a couple of years for my purposes:

 

 

So you should be, they're superb.

 

Very glad to see red applied below the solebar!

 

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For general advice on loading and sheeting, the BR instructions provide a distillation of a century or more of experience and best practice, as far as I can work out:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20424_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20425_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Booklet_BR20426_Issue.pdf

With thanks to the Barromore Model Railway Group for making these available on there website.

 

I will delve, thank you.

 

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I see no reason why WNR sheets should not bear the mark of the dodo but I think that it would be a white stencil. At one period, the Great Western used the angel's wing from the arms of the City of London, just visible here:

 

 

Yes, I suspected that would be the most appropriate way to go; white stencilled Dodo it is!

 

Just need to secure an ample supply of wagon sheet material ....

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Hmm, even more rope than I feared, but that's the way to do it!

 

It's OK once you're into the swing of it. But I only do one sheet at a time - after 16 bits of thread, one's inevitably got two fingers stuck together, or is running the risk of putting a adhesive digit on the fragile sheet. Leave the glue to cure thoroughly before putting the sheet on the wagon. 

 

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I reckon, though, that I have enough similar WNR opens that it will not be a problem if around half are permanently sheeted. Those wagons must enter and leave the goods yards with (different) sheeted loads, that's all!

 

Most sheeted loads would be handled in the goods shed anyway - sacks of flour, grain, etc.; anything that needed to be kept dry. The exceptions seem to be items such as those planks I modelled - I suspect these were floorboards or similar planed wood; rough sawn timber probably wasn't sheeted - and hay or straw:

 

 

I saw the Midland instructions for hay and straw recently - they call for double-sheeting, which could mean either one sheet on top of another, or two sheets widthways - unclear - but three ropes overall as in this photo but also two ropes lengthways. 

 

Low-density loads can go to the limit of the loading gauge, even in low-sided wagons - the LNWR goods people seem to have perfected that art, judging by some goods train photos. On the other hand, woe betide the man who lets a hollow form in the sheet, on a rainy day.

 

 

 

[Annie]

During the early pre-grouping era the GWR made their standard gauge wagon sheets from 4 long strips of material which carried on from Broad Gauge practice, - though later they standardised on 5 strips of material. Early SG sheets have been recorded as being 18ft x 11ft 6in and 21ft x 14ft before the standard 21ft x 14ft 4in size was adopted.

 

However the learned Professor Lea seems to have all such information very much at his fingertips whereas I seem to have Marmite on mine.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Annie said:

However the learned Professor Lea seems to have all such information very much at his fingertips whereas I seem to have Marmite on mine.

Better than Vegemite...

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Annie said:

However the learned Professor Lea 

 

Obsessor, not professor. 

 

MA (Oxon) D.Phil if you must know.

[Edwardian]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Obsessor, not professor. 

 

MA (Oxon) D.Phil if you must know.

 

MA (Cantab), PGQinUA (ULif)*

 

* Post graduate qualification in Under-Achievement (University of Life) 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

* Post graduate qualification in Under-Achievement (University of Life) 

 

I think I've got one of those too. My Oxford MA cost me £20 - how much was your Cambridge one?

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think I've got one of those too. My Oxford MA cost me £20 - how much was your Cambridge one?

 

Free*, but I had to eat a free lunch before they'd let me have it.

 

* It was explained to me that the University does not approve of selling degrees. Giving them away is just fine, however!

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Free*, but I had to eat a free lunch before they'd let me have it.

 

* It was explained to me that the University does not approve of selling degrees. Giving them away is just fine, however!

 

Sounds like they should have paid you. I didn't get anything to eat for my £20* and had to hire the gown, too.

 

About the only benefit is the right to vote for the Chancellor or the Professor of Poetry, if I could be bothered to go to Oxford for the election. Beatrice / Lexi never got hers, with repercussions when she taught in a teacher training college in Poland, where the MA is the usual undergraduate degree. At the start of the first term she was on the staff list as "Magister"; by the second term someone in the college administration had realised that her degree in English Language and Literature from the University of Oxford was BA, so she was demoted to "Pani" (literally "Lady" but in practice "Ms"). 

 

I went to a degree ceremony at the Jagellonian University in Krakow. Proper fur-lined robes and hats, really designed to keep you from the cold!

 

*An administrative charge, like the fees for a baptism, wedding, or funeral. The sacrament itself is free, no simony involved.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Compound2632

[Andy Hayter]

I note from Edwardian's and Compound's photos of sheeted wagons that there seem to be two styles of tying down.

 

One seems to involve the ropes (as an ex-sailor dinghy 1st class, I would have called the ropes sheets but I suspect that could cause mayhem) being tied down to the fixing loops on the underframe.  The other has ropes (probably additional) tied over the top of the tarpaulin.  

 

Does anyone know if there were specific rules for which method was used?

[Edwardian]

Some suggestions added in blue:

 

Appropriate laden weight(s) and appropriate tare weight ranges for:

1 plank - as above, current samples are:    8 TONS, 4-9-0, 4-9-1, 4-9-2, 4-9-3, 4-10-0, 4-10-1, 4-10-2, 4-10-3

2 plank - 8 TONS - 4-12-0

3 plank -  8 TONS - 

4/5 plank (same height) - as above, current samples are:     8 TONS, 9 TONS,  5-10-1, 5-10-2, 5-10-3, 5-11-0, 5-11-1, 5-11-2, 15-11-3, 5-12-0, 5-14-0, 5-14-1, 5-14-2, 15-14-3, 15-15-0, 5-15-1,                                                                                                                                          5-15-2, 5-15-3, 5-16-0 

6 1/2 plank - (based on Gloucester 7-planks and similar examples): 10 TONS - 5-17-1   5-17-2   5-17-3   5-18-0  5-18-1  5-18-2  5-18-3  5-19-0  5-19-1  5-19-2  5-19-3  6-0-0  6-0-1   6-0-2    6-0-3  

2 plank (same height as 3 plank) - as above, current samples are:   8 TONS, 14-11-3, 5-7-0, 5-10-0

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Edwardian

[Annie]

1890s GWR 4 plank 10 ton, steel u/frame, s/sided brake: 4-17-0, 5-2-0, 5-3-0

Furness 4 plank 8 ton, w/underframe, s/sided brake: 5-11-3

Edited September 11, 2021 by Annie
More information

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

I note from Edwardian's and Compound's photos of sheeted wagons that there seem to be two styles of tying down.

 

One seems to involve the ropes (as an ex-sailor dinghy 1st class, I would have called the ropes sheets but I suspect that could cause mayhem) being tied down to the fixing loops on the underframe.  The other has ropes (probably additional) tied over the top of the tarpaulin.  

 

Does anyone know if there were specific rules for which method was used?

 

The sheet has to be tied down by its ties. Ropes were extra - used either to secure the load under the sheet, before putting the sheet on, or over the top of the sheet, as for hay or straw. The ropes are never the only thing holding the sheet in place*. There were loads such as rough sawn timber that would need to be roped but didn't need sheeting. For specific rules, see the documents I linked to earlier.

 

*I dare say an exception will be posted but it will be exactly that - an exception.

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Just need to secure an ample supply of wagon sheet material ....

 

This proves that you are a man of impeccable taste, James (as if we didn't all know that already).  If it the outer, foil part of the wrapping you want to use, perhaps these might be better.

 

To go back to gasworks and their location, the Biggar Gasworks are still extant, being the only remaining one in Scotland (perhaps even in the UK).  One of the first to open and last to close.  IIRC it only used a few tons of coal a week, which were carted from the station  just under a mile away.

 

Also on how many wagons would be required for the contents of a collier, the rated load of a wagon was the maximum to which it was to be loaded given its tare weight and the running gear (springs and axlebox bearings/lubrication).  Not all 10T mineral wagons could physically hold 10 tons of coal, that being less dense than, say iron ore.  The latter is around 30cu ft per ton, while coal is c 42cu ft per ton.    As an example, CR Dia.22 8T mineral wagons had a capacity of 288cu ft = 9½T iron ore, 7T coal, while a Dia 46 8T wagon had a capacity of 312 cu ft = 10½T iron ore, 7¾T coal and a Dia.52 14T wagon's capacity was 415cu ft = 14T ore or 10T coal.*

 

Jim ( off to have a cup of tea and a caramel wafer)

 

* Figures quoted from mike Williams' book on CR wagons

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Also on how many wagons would be required for the contents of a collier, the rated load of a wagon was the maximum to which it was to be loaded given its tare weight and the running gear (springs and axlebox bearings/lubrication).  Not all 10T mineral wagons could physically hold 10 tons of coal, that being less dense than, say iron ore.  The latter is around 30cu ft per ton, while coal is c 42cu ft per ton.    As an example, CR Dia.22 8T mineral wagons had a capacity of 288cu ft = 9½T iron ore, 7T coal, while a Dia 46 8T wagon had a capacity of 312 cu ft = 10½T iron ore, 7¾T coal and a Dia.52 14T wagon's capacity was 415cu ft = 14T ore or 10T coal.*

 

On my visit to the Midland Railway Study Centre last Wednesday, I had a cursory look at Item 28948, Inwards Mineral Ledger from Skipton, for Oct 1897 onwards. This list each consignment received, noting the wagon number(s) and weight. Given that the standard Midland wagon was of 8 tons capacity, it was notable that very few loads reached that, most being in the region of 6 tons to 7 tons.

[kingfisher9147]

It might be worth visiting a industrial museum to help you with goods train. Also look in Old newspapers as some use to report what ships were in harbour but also what was coming out and in through the port. Another to help plan the length of the train is what is the power rating of the locomotives. Some South Wales coal trains could between 40-60 wagons. Also look at old Bradshaw timetable books as it will be useful in some ways. 

Mike 

[DonB]

I believe that many industrial museums were closed due to government funding cuts a couple of years before the 'plague'.  Certainly the Local Studies and Industrial Museums at Derby were closed and unless someone can correct me I think they still are closed.

[Edwardian]

Slight change of topic - anyone going to Bo'ness in the near future?

 

I ask, because it's a 4-hour drive for me, so I'd need to plan a holiday round it. I was kindly offered a go at City of Aberdeen with a tape measure, but I'd have to get there.