Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

I’m thinking of inserting the odd Ach.-CA-AC service, but what I’d really like is a motor-train shuttle CA-AC.

 

Has the WNR got a weedy old tank engine and a couple of 6W coaches, one of which could be converted into a driving trailer?

[Nearholmer]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

There was evidently sufficiently important passenger traffic between Stroud and Nailsworth to make this procedure worth-while, rather than getting passengers to change trains. 

Eridge on the LBSCR was a sort of crossroads, four destinations available, and for a period trains were split and recombined to give through portions A-C&D and B-C&D and vice versa (you had to change to go C-D, while A&B were linked by another complex variety of trains). The whole East Sussex complex of services made the WNR look fairly simple!

[Nearholmer]

9 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

Did those colourful yellow vans really exist or are they but a figment of model railway salesmens' minds? 

They have a fan club 

 

[Adam88]

11 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

They have a fan club 

 

 

A complete rabbit hole indeed.

 

[Northroader]

Just muddying the waters, looking at James system map, Kevin’s LPTB rendition, and trying to visualise something to applicable in real life but trying to keep it simple, then James explanation that Hillingham wasn’t much of a place at all, brought this to mind:

OK, there’s no 50 mile extension to nowhere beyond CA,  and you don’t have two companies into CA, but there’s some resemblance?

 

 

Hillingham?

 

P.S. If you’re contemplating sending children to school, you really must provide corridor stock. “Things” can happen if left unsupervised (vide the Much Wenlock train used by pupils of Coalbrookdale grammar school)

Edited September 17, 2021 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

Earlier this week I read the obituary for Sir Timothy Colman, scion of the Norfolk mustard making family which led me to thinking of the requirement to run private saloons for the great and good gentlefolk of west Norfolk.  Would they have owned their own saloons like the Duke of Sutherland or hired them from the railway?  Would the WNR even own private saloons?  If not, they in turn would have had to hire them from one of their neighbours.  Which of the neighbours are cooperative allies and which are competing rivals?  Would the west Norfolk gentry have one or two directorial sinecures and were they able to run private trains at low cost and short notice?  I see a need for special trains for shooting parties, peasants (rarely I hope), pheasants (more often) and decamping to Yorkshire and Scotland every August for grouse.

 

The Duke of Sutherland's private saloon was a singular anomaly. Even the various royal saloons weren't owned by royalty but provided by the railway companies for their use, presumably at some rate related to the usual family carriage / invalid saloon rate. Ordinary nobility and gentry, and certainly those elevated to knighthoods from a background in trade, would hire one of the railway's saloons. The usual rate was a minimum of four first class fares for the journey. Such a carriage would normally be attached to the regular passenger trains but one could hire a special train for 5/- a mile (single) or 7/6 a mile (return), minimum £3, plus the standard fare for each passenger. For this, at least five hours' notice had to be given at principal stations. For a journey starting at an intermediate station, the charge was based on the distance the engine had to run. [Time Tables of the Midland Railway, July, August, and September 1903 (Ian Allan reprint, c. 1969).]

 

I don't know if there were discounts for directors - although they would have free passes for ordinary first-class travel. There's a tale whose source I haven't tracked down, about Reginald Farrer, one of the founders of the hobby of rock gardening in this country. He lived at Ingleton, where his garden can still be visited. On one occasion, returning from a plant-collecting expedition to some far-flung Asian mountain range, he arrived at Skipton after the last Ingleton train had left. He was able to get a special at a moment's notice. It no doubt helped that his uncle was a director! The resourcefulness of the Station Master in being able to arrange the special at short notice no doubt helped his career prospects - he probably ended up with a top hat.

 

The question of family saloons, along with picnic saloons for less august party outings, has been discussed earlier in this topic. It's a question whether one would be more likely to see a foreign company's saloon working onto the West Norfolk, or one of the company's own saloons working off its system. Hiring vehicles in from friendly neighbours seems quite likely. 

[Edwardian]

54 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

No direct service between CA and AC?

 

No wish to interrupt the excellent Flow of Thought, but I'll insert the odd comment of dubious value as we go.

 

I had thought to:

 

(i) route one of the BM-CA mainline trains via the triangular junction, reversing at AC

 

(ii) run a Wolfringham branch service through to CA via ACSJ

 

Now, I don't have to do both or either of those if they don't fit or there is a better way

 

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m thinking of inserting the odd Ach.-CA-AC service, but what I’d really like is a motor-train shuttle CA-AC.

 

Has the WNR got a weedy old tank engine and a couple of 6W coaches, one of which could be converted into a driving trailer?

 

I was considering trialing a Pickering Steam railmotor on the Light railway Wolfringham branch.  1905 happens to be the prefect year for doing so!

 

Might that be an option?

 

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst looking through accident reports, I came across the method of working the Stroud and Nailsworth branches in the 1890s. These branches form a fish-tail from the main line at Stonehouse, with the junction at Dudbridge. Trains from Stonehouse, Stroud, and Nailsworth were each composed of portions for both of the other two destinations, with re-marshalling at Dudbridge. There was evidently sufficiently important passenger traffic between Stroud and Nailsworth to make this procedure worth-while, rather than getting passengers to change trains. 

 

Very interesting!

 

44 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

Earlier this week I read the obituary for Sir Timothy Colman, scion of the Norfolk mustard making family which led me to thinking of the requirement to run private saloons for the great and good gentlefolk of west Norfolk.  Would they have owned their own saloons like the Duke of Sutherland or hired them from the railway?  Would the WNR even own private saloons?  If not, they in turn would have had to hire them from one of their neighbours.  Which of the neighbours are cooperative allies and which are competing rivals?  Would the west Norfolk gentry have one or two directorial sinecures and were they able to run private trains at low cost and short notice?  I see a need for special trains for shooting parties, peasants (rarely I hope), pheasants (more often) and decamping to Yorkshire and Scotland every August for grouse.

 

Did any of Sir Timothy's ancestors use the WNR for mustard trains?  Did those colourful yellow vans really exist or are they but a figment of model railway salesmens' minds?  If so, what does a mustard factory need and how much arrives and departs by rail?

 

The Parish is generally against me changing history to allow Colman to order the famous yellow mustard vans earlier than the actual date this was done, 1908.  I have included a goods chord at Norwich that would allow the WNR to take Colman traffic, though I anticipate that this would be jealously guarded by the GE!  Maybe the odd van can sneak onto the WN to supply the Burghers and Boarding Houses of the Birchoverhams with mustard!

 

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Duke of Sutherland's private saloon was a singular anomaly. Even the various royal saloons weren't owned by royalty but provided by the railway companies for their use, presumably at some rate related to the usual family carriage / invalid saloon rate. Ordinary nobility and gentry, and certainly those elevated to knighthoods from a background in trade, would hire one of the railway's saloons. The usual rate was a minimum of four first class fares for the journey. Such a carriage would normally be attached to the regular passenger trains but one could hire a special train for 5/- a mile (single) or 7/6 a mile (return), minimum £3, plus the standard fare for each passenger. For this, at least five hours' notice had to be given at principal stations. For a journey starting at an intermediate station, the charge was based on the distance the engine had to run. [Time Tables of the Midland Railway, July, August, and September 1903 (Ian Allan reprint, c. 1969).]

 

I don't know if there were discounts for directors - although they would have free passes for ordinary first-class travel. There's a tale whose source I haven't tracked down, about Reginald Farrer, one of the founders of the hobby of rock gardening in this country. He lived at Ingleton, where his garden can still be visited. On one occasion, returning from a plant-collecting expedition to some far-flung Asian mountain range, he arrived at Skipton after the last Ingleton train had left. He was able to get a special at a moment's notice. It no doubt helped that his uncle was a director! The resourcefulness of the Station Master in being able to arrange the special at short notice no doubt helped his career prospects - he probably ended up with a top hat.

 

The question of family saloons, along with picnic saloons for less august party outings, has been discussed earlier in this topic. It's a question whether one would be more likely to see a foreign company's saloon working onto the West Norfolk, or one of the company's own saloons working off its system. Hiring vehicles in from friendly neighbours seems quite likely. 

 

There is the intention to have a dual-fitted Family Saloon for Norfolk gentry or industrialist families travelling off-system, to include Second Class servant's accommodation, luggage, loo and First Class saloon compartment.

 

There would also be some Third Class Picnic Saloons for day trips. 

 

Stephen mentioned Specials.  Whether a special train (I always think of Moriarty in pursuit of Holmes in one) or a reserved coach or compartment in a scheduled train, the First/Second composite is an ideal vehicle; Valet and Ladies Maid in Second, Family Members in First. 

[drduncan]

In order to help (aka create more work) I have been pondering the Grammar school location. I must confess that for no particular reason I had imagined it at Castle Aching. 
 

However, a brief dalliance with the internet suggests that you have broadly three types of Grammar school, founded in different periods, for different reasons which will therefore impact on the location. 

 

Very briefly:

First there are the Medieval period foundations, often ‘collegiate’ schools. Eg Warwick
Second there are early modern period foundations often related to the town corporation eg Bridgnorth or as charitable works by named philanthropists.

Third, Victorian period schools covered by various acts after the Clarendon commission.

 

So do you imagine the school as descended from a medieval foundation (which might suggest Castle Aching) or a later establishment in which case civic pride or philanthropy at Birchoveringham market might be the founding drive?

 

 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, drduncan said:

So do you imagine the school as descended from a medieval foundation (which might suggest Castle Aching) or a later establishment in which case civic pride or philanthropy at Birchoveringham market might be the founding drive?

 

Proposed history: the medieval monastic school at Castle Aching was refounded as a Grammar School in the 16th century following the dissolution of the monasteries. By the 18th/early 19th century, this school had decayed, leading to a second refoundation with a substantial bequest from one of the up-and-coming burghers of Bircoveringham. As part of this, the school was relocated to Birchoverham, with new buildings by a distinguished gothic revival architect:

 

 

... in economical brick, of course.

 

Name: medieval; that of the 16th century re-founder, or of the 19th?

 

I have to say that just calling it Birchoverham School would raise cause for concern these days, though no doubt would be consistent with 19th century discipline.

[Caley Jim]

I cannot help but think that, given the operational constraints brought about by trains to/from Birchoverham/Achingham having to reverse at CA, that serious thought would have been given to making the A/CA junction a triangular one, or at least putting in a connection from the AC line to the Achingham one, so that, in the case of the latter, reversal took place at AC?  CA would then be served by a shuttle from AC.  I appreciate that, given your proposed layout plan (as opposed to the geographic one), either of these would not be practicable, but it does strike me that this is the sort of thing that the company would have looked into.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

I cannot help but think that, given the operational constraints brought about by trains to/from Birchoverham/Achingham having to reverse at CA, that serious thought would have been given to making the A/CA junction a triangular one, or at least putting in a connection from the AC line to the Achingham one, so that, in the case of the latter, reversal took place at AC?  CA would then be served by a shuttle from AC.  I appreciate that, given your proposed layout plan (as opposed to the geographic one), either of these would not be practicable, but it does strike me that this is the sort of thing that the company would have looked into.

 

Jim

 

I did hear that the WNR was offered loans to do just that by the Gentlemen in the Red Corner (Derby) and by the Gentlemen in the Blue Corner (Liverpool St) but, valuing their independence, the Directors chose not to be beholden to either behemoth. 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

In order to help (aka create more work) I have been pondering the Grammar school location. I must confess that for no particular reason I had imagined it at Castle Aching. 
 

However, a brief dalliance with the internet suggests that you have broadly three types of Grammar school, founded in different periods, for different reasons which will therefore impact on the location. 

 

Very briefly:

First there are the Medieval period foundations, often ‘collegiate’ schools. Eg Warwick
Second there are early modern period foundations often related to the town corporation eg Bridgnorth or as charitable works by named philanthropists.

Third, Victorian period schools covered by various acts after the Clarendon commission.

 

So do you imagine the school as descended from a medieval foundation (which might suggest Castle Aching) or a later establishment in which case civic pride or philanthropy at Birchoveringham market might be the founding drive?

 

 

 

What an excellent post, thank you.

 

The short answer is that I had not thought it through.  When considering traffic yesterday, the though occured that there ought to be a school, but that's as far as I've got.

 

In the past we have considered ecclesiastical organisation, cottage hospitals, sanatoria, RDCs, almshouses, volunteer drill halls, etc etc, but I strangely neglected school provision.  I can only assume that I blot out all thoughts of schools as some mental defence mechanism to protect me from the trauma of paying the children's fees.

 

We have a village school at Castle Aching, dating from the 1850s and, I casually assume, charitable, as it is pre the 1870s Board School national provision, but I might be wrong in that.

 

Here is the school today

 

 

 

I suppose my default idea of a 'big school' in Norfolk is Gresham's in Holt, however, I may be completely wrong in thinking of this as a good precedent. You prompt me for the first time to consider the origin of the school, I looked up Gresham's just now to find that it was "founded in 1555 by Sir John Gresham, who converted Holt’s Manor House into a Free Grammar School as a result of Henry VIII’s suppression of the Monasteries".  So, that would be your second category. It expanded significantly it seems only from 1907, which may, or may not, recommend it as a model.

 

The example with which I am most familiar is Barnard Castle school. Something if its history might be worth reciting here, because I think it nicely illustrates some examples of the sorts of Victorian philanthropy that could come into play:

 

.... founded thanks to the combined efforts of Victorian visionaries who were determined to improve education in the North East of England towards the end of the 19th Century. A committee formed in 1869, led by the Reverend Canon Dwarris and connected with Durham University, had been seeking a central location to establish a boys’ boarding school. Their efforts caught the attention of the trustees of the late philanthropist Benjamin Flounders’ estate. Flounders ..... died in 1846 but bequeathed his estate for the extension and encouragement of education. The third, critical element was provided by St John’s Hospital, in Barnard Castle, which, simultaneously, had been framing a scheme for a grammar school.

 

Anyhow, you have prompted me to look at matters of which I was hitherto entirely ignorant, and I'm always grateful when that sort of things happens.  Picking up in the reference to the Clarendon Commission, here is a paragraph from Wiki that summarises its effect beyond the seven "Public" Schools originally examined:

 

Modelled on the Clarendon Commission, which led to the Public Schools Act 1868 which restructured the trusts of nine leading schools (including Eton College, Harrow School and Shrewsbury School), the Taunton Commission was appointed to examine the remaining 782 endowed grammar schools. The commission reported that the distribution of schools did not match the current population, and that provision varied greatly in quality, with provision for girls being particularly limited.[6][9] The commission proposed the creation of a national system of secondary education by restructuring the endowments of these schools for modern purposes. The result was the Endowed Schools Act 1869, which created the Endowed Schools Commission with extensive powers over endowments of individual schools. It was said that the commission "could turn a boys' school in Northumberland into a girls' school in Cornwall". Across England and Wales schools endowed to offer free classical instruction to boys were remodelled as fee-paying schools (with a few competitive scholarships) teaching broad curricula to boys or girls.

 

As I type, Stephen has posted.  I think his is an excellent suggestion.  It works historically, I think, and would actually clear the way for a village school to be built (perhaps under the patronage of Aching Hall) in the 1850s, the grammar school in all its subsequent spikey Gothic majesty having moved as Stephen suggests to BM. 

 

Perhaps we can circle back, then, to Gresham's, originally based in Holt's Manor House .....

 

 

.... perhaps there was, at Castle Aching, a 'Castle Aching Old Hall', eschewed as decayed, damp, pokey and unfashionable, and too much in the village, by its Sixteenth Century owners, who moved their seat to a site outside the village only for their Jacobean pile to burn down and be replaced by the present Eighteenth Century Aching Hall, in the Palladian style.  

 

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Proposed history: the medieval monastic school at Castle Aching was refounded as a Grammar School in the 16th century following the dissolution of the monasteries. By the 18th/early 19th century, this school had decayed, leading to a second refoundation with a substantial bequest from one of the up-and-coming burghers of Bircoveringham. As part of this, the school was relocated to Birchoverham, with new buildings by a distinguished gothic revival architect:

 

 

... in economical brick, of course.

 

Reading?

 

Waterhouse - good choice!

 

A distinguished Norfolk architect might be a good choice, but I think we'd be a little too early for George Skipper, and Edward Boardman I'm not sure would have been established enough.  

 

Boardman 1879 Norfolk Gothic (though you're right about the school needing to be brick!):

 

 

John Brown (1805-1876) is a little too early for 1860s-70s high gothic.

 

Nice bit of 1830s Gothic here:

 

 

How about Thomas Jekyll, here Holt Methodists (1863):

 

 

George Edmund Street (1824 – 1881), originally from Essex, was one of the front rank of English Gothic architects and he did do some work in Norfolk, so he might be a good fit. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Name: medieval; that of the 16th century re-founder, or of the 19th?

 

Interesting task to invent something.

 

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to say that just calling it Birchoverham School would raise cause for concern these days, though no doubt would be consistent with 19th century discipline.

 

Ah, well, take a book out of the back out the trousers from Gresham's, and have a Reforming Master 

 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Reading?

 

Yes, of which we have two alumni in the house, having failed to leave one behind in Durham yesterday; the other starting university next month.

[Edwardian]

27 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

I cannot help but think that, given the operational constraints brought about by trains to/from Birchoverham/Achingham having to reverse at CA, that serious thought would have been given to making the A/CA junction a triangular one, or at least putting in a connection from the AC line to the Achingham one, so that, in the case of the latter, reversal took place at AC?  CA would then be served by a shuttle from AC.  I appreciate that, given your proposed layout plan (as opposed to the geographic one), either of these would not be practicable, but it does strike me that this is the sort of thing that the company would have looked into.

 

Jim

 

Indeed, effectively reducing CA to a branch terminus.  this, however, reduces the interest of the layout too dramatically.

 

The trick must be then, not to overburden the station as Kevin has warned against, but not take too much away!

[Caley Jim]

If it's Gothic revival you want, there's always Gilbert Scott.

 

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

If it's Gothic revival you want, there's always Gilbert Scott.

 

 

Jim

 

I don't think he ever did anything in Norfolk.  One of his sons, John, IIRC, did; RC St John the Baptist (next to WNR's Norwich West terminus).

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Name: medieval; that of the 16th century re-founder, or of the 19th?

I’m not posh enough to know for sure, but isn’t it conventional to name these schools after places where they used to be, but moved from about two hundred years ago?
 

So, having The Castle Priory Grammar School in Birchoverham, where I understand there to be neither, might work. Better still, calling it The Castle Aching School, but locating it in Birchoverham, would do even more to confuse the unwary and help ‘out’ German spies who claim to be alumni.

 

From a timetabling point of view, it doesn’t really matter: all we have to do is time trains so that, whatever the distance between school and station, it is necessary to run like a whippet to get in before the gate shuts, and likewise to get on the train home after last period, and so that if you stay late for inter-house games, or get detention, the next train involves waiting for hours on a deserted station in the dark and rain.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

So, having The Castle Priory Grammar School in Birchoverham, where I understand there to be neither, might work. Better still, calling it The Castle Aching School, but locating it in Birchoverham, would do even more to confuse the unwary and help ‘out’ German spies who claim to be alumni.

 

Always a good trick for unmasking the Boche spy:

 

 

[Curlew]

Surely the ideal location for the school would be Aching Head (or Aching Bottom if it were a public school)?

[Caley Jim]

8 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Always a good trick for unmasking the Boche spy:

 

 

There is a true story of a WW II German spy who was put ashore on the Moray coast. Arriving late at night at a remote station he asked for a ticket to Aberdeen. On being told it was 'five and ten' he proffered £5 and 10s notes. A discrete call to the local constable ended his espionage endevours! 

 

Jim 

[uax6]

As for the timing of the shunt moves at any of the stations to clear the platforms, I suggest 3 minute for change of direction and moving out, then another 3 mins for the next change of direction and move. This will give a fairly good representation of the time these sorts of things take to do.

 

How about The Hillington School for the Grammer? It should be far enough away from CA to actually sound about right. Or Ketts School, or Uttings School.

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

So, having The Castle Priory Grammar School in Birchoverham, where I understand there to be neither, might work. Better still, calling it The Castle Aching School, but locating it in Birchoverham, would do even more to confuse the unwary and help ‘out’ German spies who claim to be alumni.

 

 

As drduncan says, the name could either be for the location (and I do like the idea of the original location name 'moving', as it were).

 

Resist, then, the temptation to name our version of 'Gresham's school' as  'Thwackham's School'!  Logically it would be the name of the family who held the Castle Aching Estate in the Sixteenth Century.  I think we had the idea that there was originally some Norman Overload (boo!) , but then I'm thinking we have a family, perhaps one that dies out with the estate passing through marriage.  So, the family before them.

 

Of course, we could have a 'nationalised' monastic estate, like, of course Castle Acre Priory, as the basis for the school.  Perhaps, like Gresham's, the Priory had held a manor, which, like Holt's, was used as the first school?

 

Anyway, as I'm sure you intended, this gets us to The Priory School (1904), though there were many Priory Schools, perhaps because the church founded schools or precisely because they were post-dissolution foundations, like Gresham's, founded on former monastic estates. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Anyway, as I'm sure you intended, this gets us to The Priory School (1904), 

 

Dull but worth and probably Edwardian Queen Anne in its architecture. By the late 20th century, a slightly seedy comprehensive, having merged with the secondary modern.

 

I was hoping for something a bit more 1870s! 

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

If it's Gothic revival you want, there's always Gilbert Scott.

 

There's always Gilbert Scott.

 

 

No. 2 Son is moving from Waterhouse in brick to Scott in stone - or possibly Champneys. The Scott building in question was built by the same contractors who were working on the Midland Grand Hotel. The latter ended up one storey lower than Scott had intended, whereas the former was built one storey higher....

[ianathompson]

23 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

There is a true story of a WW II German spy who was put ashore on the Moray coast. Arriving late at night at a remote station he asked for a ticket to Aberdeen. On being told it was 'five and ten' he proffered £5 and 10s notes. A discrete call to the local constable ended his espionage endevours! 

 

That is not too far from the truth but as a GNoSR fan I think that the details were a little different. 

Without checking, because I cannot recall which of the books the incident is recounted in, I beleive the story was  as follows.

 

Three spies, two men and a woman were landed on the beaches of the Moray Firth at night from a submarine. 

They split into two groups and decided to board an LNER train with a view to reaching London. 

One man and woman went to Port Gordon and the single man went to Spey Bay.

They waited for the early morning train.

 

The single man, on being told that the London fare was 10/6 offered £10-6-0 thereby arousing suspicion.

The stationmaster also noted that his trousers were wet.

He telephoned Garmouth and told them to hold the train whilst the police were summoned from Fochabers.

 

The spies were rounded up virtually off the beach.

The two men were eventually shot but the woman was allowed to live, if I remember correctly.

 

Any one who has been to Spey Bay would realise the futility of a stranger trying to casually blend in with the surroundings!

 

Ian T