Castle Aching

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

You also had places like the Cathcart Circle where trains left Glasgow Central as up trains and became down trains as they ran round the circle and returned to Central. 

 

Jim 

Where did they change over, Jim (serious question - from a former resident of Queen's Park)?

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Heck. I declare that the WNR mileage is measured from CA, so departures from thence by either the main or branch are down trains and arrivals are up. In which case, I believe one needs a pair of down starters at the platform end, one for the main and one for the branch, with down advance starters a train's length further on on both lines, so that shunting moves remain within station limits. There would be an up home on each line in rear of the junction, with up distants further out (offstage). Possibly outer homes, to protect moves within station limits up to the advance starters. Alternatively, shunting moves could be regarded as occupying the sections and the advance starters and outer homes dispensed with, though I'm not sure how that would work since the sections on both main and branch would be occupied. 

 

So long as the Bronx is still up and the Battery's down, I will happily accept that.

 

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I doubt that at this period at a place of this sort there would be ground signals, shunting moves being controlled by hand signals.

 

Oh, I had assumed there would be, but....

 

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Oh, I had assumed there would be, but..

I agree James, there was a lot of resignalling after the Armagh crash and the various better safety requirements that followed, and these resignalling projects seem to have at least ensured all regular moves on the main line were signalled, with only movements within yards and unusual ones on the main line being hand signalled. 

 

Or you could decide the WNR followed the NER where every conceivable movement right down to the driver popping to the toilet had a signal...

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Where did they change over, Jim (serious question - from a former resident of Queen's Park)?

I can't recall off the top of my head, @St Enodoc and I'm away from home (in Anstruther) for the weekend, but I'll look it up when I get home.

 

Jim

[Donw]

In order to stop the GWR backed Bala and Dolgelley Railway from reaching the coast the Aberystwith and Welsh Coast railway started to build a branch to Dolgelley. Once they had reached Penmaenpool  it was operated and designated as down to Penamaenpool from Barmouth Junction.However on reaching Dolgelley in 1869 they were faced with the GWR timetable which had designated Dolgelley as down from the junction near Ruabon. So the public timetable was changed to shown from Dolgelley to Barmouth as Down. However the Working Timetable was unaltered showing it as up. The working Timetable was not changed until 1895 when the whistle codes were also changed.

 

Regarding the signals at Castle Aching. I am not in favour of Outer Homes and Advanced Starters where inter station distances are short. My choice would be to have a shunt ahead signal for the main and branch. You could add a limit of shunt board if you wanted but basically shunt ahead would allow a shunt move to clear the turnouts. 

Distant signals can also be a problem. However a lever to operate one could always be used to turn a light on in  the panel of the other station to indicate a train from them is expected.

Prior to around 1900 a lot of ground signal were actually point indicators sometime referred to as Non Independent signals. These were linked to the turnout linkage to rotate to show a red or white light. However by 1905 these may have been replaced with normal ground signals.

 

My suggestions

signal towards the station

A home signal for both the main and the branch  these could be on a single post with a bracket and subsidiary post placed between the two lines.  a smaller subsidiary arm under the branch home to authorise entry to the loop and engine shed roads.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt into the goods yard

 

signals leaving the station

A bracket signal with a starter for both the main  and the branch with a shunt ahead underneath both.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move onto the main from the yard.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move from the loop or shed road onto the branch

 

Don

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by Donw

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

I can't recall off the top of my head, @St Enodoc and I'm away from home (in Anstruther) for the weekend, but I'll look it up when I get home.

 

Jim

Thanks Jim - enjoy the East Neuk.

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Donw said:

In order to stop the GWR backed Bala and Dolgelley Railway from reaching the coast the Aberystwith and Welsh Coast railway started to build a branch to Dolgelley. Once they had reached Penmaenpool  it was operated and designated as down to Penamaenpool from Barmouth Junction.However on reaching Dolgelley in 1869 they were faced with the GWR timetable which had designated Dolgelley as down from the junction near Ruabon. So the public timetable was changed to shown from Dolgelley to Barmouth as Down. However the Working Timetable was unaltered showing it as up. The working Timetable was not changed until 1895 when the whistle codes were also changed.

 

Regarding the signals at Castle Aching. I am not in favour of Outer Homes and Advanced Starters where inter station distances are short. My choice would be to have a shunt ahead signal for the main and branch. You could add a limit of shunt board if you wanted but basically shunt ahead would allow a shunt move to clear the turnouts. 

Distant signals can also be a problem. However a lever to operate one could always be used to turn a light on in  the panel of the other station to indicate a train from them is expected.

Prior to around 1900 a lot of ground signal were actually point indicators sometime referred to as Non Independent signals. These were linked to the turnout linkage to rotate to show a red or white light. However by 1905 these may have been replaced with normal ground signals.

 

My suggestions

signal towards the station

A home signal for both the main and the branch  these could be on a single post with a bracket and subsidiary post placed between the two lines.  a smaller subsidiary arm under the branch home to authorise entry to the loop and engine shed roads.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt into the goods yard

 

signals leaving the station

A bracket signal with a starter for both the main  and the branch with a shunt ahead underneath both.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move onto the main from the yard.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move from the loop or shed road onto the branch

 

Don

 

 

 

Agree regarding outer homes and advanced starters. You could have a shunt ahead signal but even that probably isn't necessary. A limit of shunt board is unlikely on a single line (cue loads of examples) as it is essentially a fixed stop signal for shunting moves in the wrong direction on one of a double line of tracks.

[Annie]

8 hours ago, Donw said:

My suggestions

signal towards the station

A home signal for both the main and the branch  these could be on a single post with a bracket and subsidiary post placed between the two lines.  a smaller subsidiary arm under the branch home to authorise entry to the loop and engine shed roads.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt into the goods yard

 

signals leaving the station

A bracket signal with a starter for both the main  and the branch with a shunt ahead underneath both.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move onto the main from the yard.

A ground signal to authorise a shunt move from the loop or shed road onto the branch

 

Don

Looking over 19th century OS maps for small terminus stations bears this out.  Signals tended to be laid down on the 'less is more' principle with any special movements handled by the bobby's flags or handlamp.

 

Edit:  Reminds me of a layout I built back in my twenties where following an article in RM I installed a mechanical push button that would make a signalman figure lean out of the window of his signal box with a green flag in his hand.

Edited April 13 by Annie
More words needed.

[Donw]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Agree regarding outer homes and advanced starters. You could have a shunt ahead signal but even that probably isn't necessary. A limit of shunt board is unlikely on a single line (cue loads of examples) as it is essentially a fixed stop signal for shunting moves in the wrong direction on one of a double line of tracks.

 

Dolgelley 1885-1922 both the Cambrian and the GWR had a shunt ahead signal.  The principal is that under absolute block working the shunt ahead allows a limited move without the need to gain permission from the other box. Whereas the starter cannot be pulled off without obtaining line clear.

 

Don

[Schooner]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I declare that the WNR mileage is measured from CA, so departures from thence by either the main or branch are down trains and arrivals are up.

 

Makes sense to me, don't even need to re-label Birchoverham's platforms :)

 

On signalling, and as with all things things WNR, I think we need to hold in our heads both the Railway of the Lore and the Model in the Shed. I'm not sure if the layout is to viewed as if it is the WNR or as a model of the WNR (my gut feeling is the former?), but I think we should be alive to the requirements for each differing slightly.

 

For example, an outer home about a loco's length after the main line into CA emerges from behind its viewblock* would be just the thing to make a stopped train not just coherent but immersive.

 

*I suspect a train might need to stop between AC Jnc (Nth) and CA, because the operator might need (/viewer might want) time to walk around from the junction bit of the shed to the CA bit. It also gives the controller a little space to change their role-playing role, and feel like they're always running trains rather than chasing after them. By having it stop as it emerges onto the scene allows a train-length or so to the station, making the most of the available space, and aims to strike a balance between being a present...ummm...presence and a dominant force on the scene: one could reasonably ignore it and continue shunting at a relaxed pace, or focus on getting an AM branch train away, but at least there is something physical to ignore!

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

 

Dolgelley 1885-1922 both the Cambrian and the GWR had a shunt ahead signal.  The principal is that under absolute block working the shunt ahead allows a limited move without the need to gain permission from the other box. Whereas the starter cannot be pulled off without obtaining line clear.

 

Don

True enough but there were plenty of places that didn't. A bell code was used to make the other signal box aware.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

On signalling, and as with all things things WNR, I think we need to hold in our heads both the Railway of the Lore and the Model in the Shed. I'm not sure if the layout is to viewed as if it is the WNR or as a model of the WNR (my gut feeling is the former?), but I think we should be alive to the requirements for each differing slightly.

 

A very profound point. I differ from you, though: it's clear to me that the layout is a model of the WNR; we know that the 'real' WNR (the Railway of the Lore) has many features that are not intended to form part of the model, but that firmly exist in the documented contents of James' imagination.

[drduncan]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

Looking over 19th century OS maps for small terminus stations bears this out.  Signals tended to be laid down on the 'less is more' principle with any special movements handled by the bobby's flags or handlamp.

 

Edit:  Reminds me of a layout I built back in my twenties where following an article in RM I installed a mechanical push button that would make a signalman figure lean out of the window of his signal box with a green flag in his hand.

Interesting! Which issue?

D

[drduncan]

Rather than ground signals, ie independent of the point position, you could consider non-independent point signals (often rotating lamp type things) or even ex BG point capstans bought cheap from the GWR following one of the gauge conversions of the 1870s….

Duncan

Edited April 13 by drduncan
Spelling

[Annie]

43 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Interesting! Which issue?

D

Oh dear it was an awful long time ago, but I'll see if I can find which one it was.  I fitted it into a smallish possibly Saxby & Farmer GWR signal box that I'd scratchbuilt from card and as a method of signalling it was very effective and looked reasonably realistic in operation.  As the article says the signalman was completely out of sight and invisible at the back of the signal box interior until he was moved into position.  Only a fairly narrow slot was needed to be made in both the baseboard surface and the signal box floor. EDIT:  The signal box was the ex-B&ER signal box from Hatch on the Chard Branch as featured during the three part series on the Chard Branch in RM in 1969.

 

RM May 1970 Pg.143

 

Edited April 13 by Annie
added an article scan.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Makes sense to me, don't even need to re-label Birchoverham's platforms :)

 

On signalling, and as with all things things WNR, I think we need to hold in our heads both the Railway of the Lore and the Model in the Shed. I'm not sure if the layout is to viewed as if it is the WNR or as a model of the WNR (my gut feeling is the former?), but I think we should be alive to the requirements for each differing slightly.

 

For example, an outer home about a loco's length after the main line into CA emerges from behind its viewblock* would be just the thing to make a stopped train not just coherent but immersive.

 

*I suspect a train might need to stop between AC Jnc (Nth) and CA, because the operator might need (/viewer might want) time to walk around from the junction bit of the shed to the CA bit. It also gives the controller a little space to change their role-playing role, and feel like they're always running trains rather than chasing after them. By having it stop as it emerges onto the scene allows a train-length or so to the station, making the most of the available space, and aims to strike a balance between being a present...ummm...presence and a dominant force on the scene: one could reasonably ignore it and continue shunting at a relaxed pace, or focus on getting an AM branch train away, but at least there is something physical to ignore!

 

 

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A very profound point. I differ from you, though: it's clear to me that the layout is a model of the WNR; we know that the 'real' WNR (the Railway of the Lore) has many features that are not intended to form part of the model, but that firmly exist in the documented contents of James' imagination.

 

Yes, Brother Compound is correct; the layout is not the WNR. The railway has a history and an extent that would never be modelled comprehensively. At it's simplest, once must remember there is a prototype!

 

That said, the WNR model railway needs to follow the usual compromises and to find 'artistic' solutions therefore in both physical and operational terms in its depiction of the prototype. 

 

Thus Brother Schooner does make a very profound point. 

 

There are a lot of things, I refelect, that only exist in my imagination!

 

 

[Donw]

Perhaps in today's terminology it would be a virtual prototype.

 

 

Don

[ianathompson]

On 13/04/2024 at 11:43, Annie said:

RM May 1970 Pg.143

 

I have actually done this with Auichintoul West box on my N gauge GNoSR layout.

 

 

The modelling leaves a little to be desired, the box awaits completion and the signalman is unconnected to a control.

For what it is worth the signalman and his green flag are hardly visible. 

He is indicating to the driver that he has been accepted by Bridge of Marnoch under the Warning Arrangement (3-5-5 as i recall).

 

The reality is that any signalman with any brains would have told the driver this as he walked along the platform to get to the West box.

The GNoSR, similar to the Highland, had boxes at each end of a loop.

On the HR the block instruments were in the station building but on the GNoSR they were in the major box (Auchintoul East).

 

Ian T

[Caley Jim]

On 12/04/2024 at 11:39, St Enodoc said:

Where did they change over, Jim (serious question - from a former resident of Queen's Park)?

Sorry to take so long to respond to this.  Other things taking up my time.

 

On a 1961 Route plan in Jack Kernahan's book on the Cathcart Circle, the outer circle is still marked as 'up' and the inner as 'down' at Pollockshields West. so the changeover must have been when trains got back to Muirhouse Junction.

 

Jim