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7 minutes ago, Regularity said:

which would have involved a reversal at Northampton Castle.


Not using the route Edwardian selected: he sent his carriage via Market Harborough to avoid a reversal.

 

Good cycling route now, the Northampton to Harborough line.

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Posted (edited)

This LNWR hook-up casts an interesting light on the politics of the West Norfolk, hemmed in on the one hand by the Great Eastern and on the other by the M&GN as proxy for its parent companies - your enemy's enemy is your friend. I've really no idea how relations stood between the LNWR and the Great Eastern - it's hard to think of two major English companies that had less to do with each other. Was Peterborough their only meeting point? In London, they were rather orthogonal - the LNWR reaching the docks via its proxy, the North London.

 

BTW, I've not injected myself with bleach and have no plan to do so.

Edited by Compound2632
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I read somewhere that things were a bit strained between the GER and the LNWR, but I can't remember where I read it now.

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2 minutes ago, Annie said:

I read somewhere that things were a bit strained between the GER and the LNWR, but I can't remember where I read it now.

 

Well, back in the earlies the Eastern Counties was a Hudson line, so I doubt there was much goodwill from Euston then.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I've really no idea how relations stood between the LNWR and the Great Eastern

 

Back to Gospel Oak. 

 

For some reason the NLR (=LNWR with a false beard and glasses) and the GER couldn't agree on a connection at this location.

 

My surmise is that it had something to do with access to the docks, where I think MR+GER may have been in strategic alliance with the MR to rival the LNWR+NLR, and/or to stifle the GER's ability to create goods depots further west ...... they created one at Tufnell Park, which probably put the wind up the LNWR.

 

But, it might also have related to suburban passenger traffic to The City, where the NLR presumably wanted to avoid any leakage of traffic from Broad Street to Liverpool Street. The traffic from the northern suburbs to The City was gigantic before the tramways electrified and the Tube started, so well worth fighting over.

 

It would be worth delving into this LNWR-GER thing further though, not forgetting that the two shared Fenchuch Street as their city terminus for a while, and that the NLR had a whopping great goods station at Haydon Square, accessed from the approach to Fenchurch Street.

 

BTW, worth zooming-in on the Gospel Oak area on the 1:1056 OS maps. its one of those mega-interesting places, with railways going in all directions, and the great big MR loco shed at Kentish Town. The view from Parliament Hill Fields is interesting now; it must have been blooming fascinating in 1900.

 

Blow me! Some enterprising aviator has taken a picture of the very view i had in mind!  https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW016656

Edited by Nearholmer
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45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

BTW, I've not injected myself with bleach and have no plan to do so.

 

But, if it were to catch on among the Trumpistas, it could solve a number of America's problems at one fell swoop!

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1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

But, if it were to catch on among the Trumpistas, it could solve a number of America's problems at one fell swoop!

 

I wouldn't wish death by Trump on even his most ardent supporter. I'd far rather they lived to see the consequences.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This LNWR hook-up casts an interesting light on the politics of the West Norfolk, hemmed in on the one hand by the Great Eastern and on the other by the M&GN as proxy for its parent companies - your enemy's enemy is your friend. I've really no idea how relations stood between the LNWR and the Great Eastern - it's hard to think of two major English companies that had less to do with each other. Was Peterborough their only meeting point? In London, they were rather orthogonal - the LNWR reaching the docks via its proxy, the North London.

 

BTW, I've not injected myself with bleach and have no plan to do so.

 

Cambridge, of course, was a meeting point, but I'm not sure whether that necessarily involved them having anything to do with each other.

 

Peterborough was different.  Peterborough (Peterborough East, as it was known only from 1923) was the GER station.  The GN ECML station was "Peterborough Cowgate"  in pre-Grouping days, IIRC.

1693428578_peterborough_east_alsop(early20thc)old9-Copy.jpg.663834790650b5eae15b795fe6b04c49.jpg

 

peterborough_east_alsop(early20thc)old11.jpg.1c389b8605b9cf5e800b21e4c50791a8.jpg1936955121_PeterboroughEast004.jpg.f6beae85c2916b6268d8a3a42a39286d.jpg963333980_PeterboroughEast003.jpg.9013898cb4929fc74cd86d2306d5e1fc.jpg1438362466_PeterboroughEast0021934.jpg.f73bcf938645063c776394ea514631f1.jpg

 

603802709_PeterboroughEast0071954.jpg.d4ae01a29c7ac38e2e0eef30b8746ec1.jpg

 

The GE line made an end-on connection with the LNW Nene Valley line.  The LNW had an engine shed (long gone) and turntable (traces of which remain) on the north side of the line, just west of the GE station, into which LNW trains ran.   

 

I don't have any pre-grouping pictures of an LNW service at the station, or "proof" from Grouping times; here is a Midland interloper, presumably having come from the ECML station, into which the MR and M&GN ran:

 

 

107997023_PeterboroughEast006.jpg.03ad26c8a7afe49d745f64532660a277.jpg

 

And, from the State Expropriation era, a diseasal 'unit' of some description approaches the station from the LNW lines, passing under the GN ECML

739240985_PeterboroughEast008ApproachingPeterboroughEastfromLNWRLines.jpg.07a0fcdda632bb763c4fb5cca6fee670.jpg

 

EDIT: A Map!

 

1083162435_PeterboroughRailwaysMap-Copy.jpg.eae4faa6838fad1ca6766a2d399937db.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I don't have any pre-grouping pictures of an LNW service at the station, or "proof" from Grouping times; here is a Midland interloper, presumably having come from the ECML station, into which the MR and M&GN ran:

 

 

That's a post-1928 photo, so the 483 Class 4-4-0 has presumably taken over on passenger services from the ex-LNWR types. There's an ex-GCR (or possibly ex-MSLR) Belpaire-boilered 4-4-0 lurking behind.

 

Technicolor map:

 

1985833074_Peterborough__Longville_RJD_compressed.jpg.095c139b622bf122165793ce46019649.jpg

 

I do think there's been some mix-up with labelling of the "agreed" junctions there, though. 

 

The Great Northern was the last on the scene (apart from the M&GN). Peterborough's main line was on the east-west axis.

Edited by Compound2632
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4 hours ago, Annie said:

I read somewhere that things were a bit strained between the GER and the LNWR, but I can't remember where I read it now.

According to Hawkins and Reeve (GER Engine Sheds) the relationship between the two was exceptionally cordial. I can’t think of any traffic where they would have competed, and the LNWR made use of Cambridge and Peterborough stations, with the GER making almost exclusive use of the LNWR’s loco depot up in Doncaster.

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Posted (edited)

The LTSR and access to Tilbury docks, which involved strong GER+MR must have coloured the LNWR view in the London area. Tilbury was opened surprisingly early (1886), and was well-placed to grab traffic from the E&WI Docks, but I think it took quite a while for the link to the Midland to be put in place properly. 
 

Once the MR fully owned the LTSR, they had a really good way of getting goods through to/from the continent and their heartlands, which must have nibbled at a LNWR earnings.

Edited by Nearholmer
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Ah yes, the Orient Express:

 

814742715_DY9735StPancrasOrientExpressleavingforTilbury.jpg.aa64a5622c74d7dc0141645ac060e898.jpg

 

NRM DY 9735, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. Orient Express leaving St. Pancras for Tilbury, 9 January 1912, in connection with the sailing of a P&O liner. 

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Posted (edited)

The only less glorious boat trains were the ones to and from Gravesend West, which had a very downbeat overnight ferry service from Holland that was used by diamond couriers. Those trains were also hauled by mixed-traffic 0-6-0, and the short rake of coaches was supposedly highly bug-infested.

 

Just found a picture of the Boat Train in all its glory http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/gravesend_west_street/index33.shtml

 

Thinking about it, there is a link to the LTSR, because they ran services from Fenchurch Street to Gravesend, the last bit being a boat from Tilbury, and you can find pictures showing trains with a Gravesend headboard leaving Fenchurch Street.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Was Peterborough their only meeting point?

 

The LNWR had a Bedford-Cambridge branch which ran via Sandy.

It appears to have run into the bays at the south end of Cambridge station.

From the 6 inch OS maps the LNWR had its own goods shed and loco shed on the south side of Hills Raod just outside the GER station.

This was just across the road from today's power signal box.

 

Speaking of signalling and referring to Magdalen Road, although coming into the late 20th, early 21st centuries.

The panel arrangement at Magdalen was notorious amongst local signalmen for its ability to catch people out.

It only had ten switches (equivalent to levers) for signals and points but it did cause a lot of problems.

It looked like a standard NX panel but wasn't.

It locked electrically, which was the root of the problem in that the adjacent boxes used mechanical locking frames.

 

The panel was apparently given some fancy acronym in the last couple of years that I worked there (amongst other places as a relief) but I can't remember what it was at this remove.

It was something like IPS (Individual Power Switches?)

I can remember asking the boss what these IPS things were and he said, "You've been working the damned thing for X years!"

 

Shortly after I retired one of the "reisdents" nearly managed to crash a train into a car having been fooled by IPS and its wicked ways.

 

Ian T

 

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The acronym given was OCS One Control Switch, which I have now finally persuaded management that it is not. OCS panels have One Control Switch (unsurprisingly!) that sets up and entire route and is a very LMR thing, not an Eastern thing at all., whereas Maggy Road the switch only clears one signal... I can't recall off hand what it is now called (It could be ICS, individual control switch)... 

 

Don't worry Tommo, its still sitting there, plotting to catch its next victim!

 

Andy G

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7 minutes ago, uax6 said:

the switch only clears one signal

 Or not as the case may be..!!!

 

I think I still have my home made idiot's guide somewhere if I am called back in the "emergency"!

 

Ian T

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4 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

I think I still have my home made idiot's guide somewhere if I am called back in the "emergency"!

 

Ian T

 

And you're not the only one to have one.....

 

Andy G

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

diamond couriers

Q: What did one diamond courier say to the other?

 

A: I'm only here for de Beer.

 

I thank you.

Edited by St Enodoc
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On 24 April 2020 at 06:37, Edwardian said:

 

Rare pictorial evidence of a WNR coach working through to Eastbourne ....

 

1533901009_No.214withEastbournePullmanatHorley.jpg.909843b3a1f3e5055ccc4481bb4c2b71.jpg

 

On 24 April 2020 at 08:39, Compound2632 said:

I've realised what it is that looks wrong about those leading 6-wheelers - no lower footboard. And the leading one has spoked wheels. But I daresay you'll tell me that was usual Brighton practice.

There is nothing wrong with the footboards as shown. The Brighton just had the single board, roughly level with the bottom of the solebar, for non-brake coaches. There was a separate lower footstep under the guard's door where appropriate. The coaches here are a full third and a full first, so no lower step. The LBSC did use spoked wheels, mainly nine spoked, but they were generally only used on brake vehicles, either with or without passenger compartments, and some NPCS, so the picture is wrong there. However, as has been discussed elsewhere, the likelihood would have been for the first vehicle to have been a brake van of some sort - most Brighton sets were topped and tailed with a brake van - so the artist has probably erred in that respect, although he may have a photo to back himself up.

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A pause to commemorate ANZAC Day, marked today in difficult circumstances.

 

In this connection, permit me to mention a memorial on the Victoria Embankment, of which I am very fond, and with which I am very familiar, as I used to pass it on the way to my London office (we've moved now).  It was sculpted by Major Cecil Brown, who served in the corps.  The dedication reads:

 

To the Glorious and Immortal // Memory of the Officers, N.C.O.s and Men // of the Imperial Camel Corps – British, // Australian, New Zealand, Indian – who fell in action or died of wounds // and disease in Egypt, Sinai, and Palestine, 1916, 1917, 1918

 

1669464504_Camel_Corps_Memorial_Victoria_Embankment_Gardens_-_front_view.jpg.9ee28473b9a850408e4230d83cfe40d0.jpg

45419.jpg.f41d2590b0380139775ed3ab409cb0c5.jpg

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Yes it's been a very odd ANZAC day here.  Normally here in the small rural town where I live there would have been a dawn parade to the war memorial on the hill overlooking the town.  Something that would have been repeated in small towns up and down the length of New Zealand with much larger parades and ceremonies in the main centres.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

 

There is nothing wrong with the footboards as shown. The Brighton just had the single board, roughly level with the bottom of the solebar, for non-brake coaches. There was a separate lower footstep under the guard's door where appropriate. The coaches here are a full third and a full first, so no lower step. The LBSC did use spoked wheels, mainly nine spoked, but they were generally only used on brake vehicles, either with or without passenger compartments, and some NPCS, so the picture is wrong there. However, as has been discussed elsewhere, the likelihood would have been for the first vehicle to have been a brake van of some sort - most Brighton sets were topped and tailed with a brake van - so the artist has probably erred in that respect, although he may have a photo to back himself up.

 

The artist may have based it on this Bennett photograph (Plate 58 in Klaus Marx's "The Bennett Collection"):

Bennett-collection-plate-58.jpg.cdbf83b26edc636fc9c8289511afc0e5.jpg

 

Cheers,

Dave

Edited by Dave Searle
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In working out how the coach got there from Norfolk, the route has been considered but not were the train connections there to make sure that it was able to do the journey, or are we assuming a different timetable than the one which actually happened?

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That Bennett photo looks like Purley, with the SER loco shed, latterly the BR(S) muniments store, on the right, but I’m mystified by those ghostly peak above the shed.

 

Or, is it the carriage painting shop at Brighton, with the Cliftonville Curve joining in the foreground???

 

I gave the book away, so can’t check.

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3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That Bennett photo looks like Purley, with the SER loco shed, latterly the BR(S) muniments store, on the right, but I’m mystified by those ghostly peak above the shed.

 

Or, is it the carriage painting shop at Brighton, with the Cliftonville Curve joining in the foreground???

 

It's the Cliftonville Spur on the right.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

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