Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

Either is nicer than that big blue engine we saw earlier. Nevertheless I'm holding out for a bigger, more workmanlike engine in Stroudley's goods green.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

One point that both of James’s critiques, of the Terrier and the GER coach, bring-out is that ignorance of prototype construction leads to obvious errors in models, and I think that is a very fair point indeed.

 

As several here know, I happily live with all sorts of approximation, because I’m seduced by the charm of old-fashioned-style toys/models, but it does seem bizarre indeed when people sell ‘finescale’ material that gets the engineering of the real thing all wrong.

[St Enodoc]

44 minutes ago, Donw said:

thicker wheels and flanges (shades of those thick ankles Nearholmer mentioned)

Many years ago, the late Don Boreham (long-standing Secretary of The Model Railway Club) wrote in his book "Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling" that "thick ugly flanges are about as attractive on a train as thick ugly ankles on a woman".

[Edwardian]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

One point that both of James’s critiques, of the Terrier and the GER coach, bring-out is that ignorance of prototype construction leads to obvious errors in models, and I think that is a very fair point indeed.

 

As several here know, I happily live with all sorts of approximation, because I’m seduced by the charm of old-fashioned-style toys/models, but it does seem bizarre indeed when people sell ‘finescale’ material that gets the engineering of the real thing all wrong.

 

I am not an engineer, in any way, but I find it is mistakes that proceed from ignorance of prototype construction that upset me most.  I had an early, salutary, lesson when I acquired a pair of second-hand open wagons, failing to notice that my predecessor in title had 'laid' the floor with the planks running the wrong way!

 

From that moment, I've tried to be more aware.  Thus, the thing that upsets me most about the Hornby Terrier is the misunderstanding of the side tanks and the buffers construction.  From the side, the hint that the outer face of the tanks is cladding (apart from the prominent fixing bolts) is that it overlaps the cab side sheet slightly.  This is faithfully reproduced by Hornby, but the designer evidently did not know why the overlap was there, and failed to see that the cladding must overlap the top of the tank, too.  Similarly, it was evidently not understood that the thicker part of the buffer base is part of the wooden headstock, thus needs to be in line with it.

 

This sort of thing has a long heritage.  Look at the impossible "Hull & Barnsley" Hornby van body. 

 

I think it comes down to this; once I become aware of some aspect of prototype construction, certain inaccuracies also become impossibilities and the model becomes (in terms I can best understand things) ungrammatical.  So, it bugs me in ways it would not bother others.  For me, Hornby's treatment of the Terrier tanks is a solecism; it's the modelling equivalent of a split infinitive.  

 

Other inaccuracies tend to bother me less.  I think if it were not for the two issues I've mentioned and the extraneous wash-out plugs, and, perhaps, the tool box being too short, I'd have lived with the Hornby Terrier, indeed, be quite happy with it.  It's a good model, and its main problem is the existence of a rival. 

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

It's a good model, and its main problem is the existence of a rival. 

 

 

I'm a firm believer in objective reality. The measure of a model is how it measures up to the thing it represents, rather than to another model.

[Edwardian]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

The measure of a model is how it measures up to the thing it represents, rather than to another model.

 

That is true, though comparisons are inevitable.  The issues I singled out, as opposed to the many other issues I could list, are the ones that, in my view, would have let down the Hornby model, regardless of the existence of a better (Dapol's new tooling) or, indeed, worse (Hornby's old (ex-Dapol) tooling) alternative.

 

That said, with RTR, experience suggests that one must never let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

[NeilHB]

James, 

 

Oh dear, that really is an awful finish. It does appear to make it very difficult to determine exactly what the surface texture is like. 

 

I'm not sure what Shapeways returns policy is - they have a customer services email: service@shapeways.com - suggest dropping them an email to explain the dilemma? Simon is also a member on here - his thread is here: 

Might be worth getting in touch with him directly to explain the issues around the incorrect beading etc.? 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Even the Czech-made tinplate Terriers that I have too many of have the headstock roughly right, I guess because the model designer understood what he was looking at. They don’t have the tank outer-skin right, but that would probably have made them too expensive.

 

It is weird getting ‘constructional’ things wrong, because half the joy of models is that they lead you to think, and ask questions, about how the real thing went together.

 

 

[TurboSnail]

Am I to be shot at dawn for still liking my old Dapol/Hornby Terriers? 

 

On the various locos and wagons I make, I try to get an understanding of the mechanical construction from various drawings and images before making it in CAD. This isn't always clear, especially for the oddball, unique and very old locos I tend to make, where reference material is hard to come by. I also don't have much budget to get out and see preserved examples. Hence I often leave off the smaller details like pipework for the modeller to make their own interpretation, I find most people are happy to do that sort of work themselves.

 

I also use a similar defence to Hornby - "Well, it is cheap..."

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

Oh dear.

 

Next time I'll just set fire to a £50 note.  Quicker and less hassle.

 

The "Gray [sic] PA12" material is quite nasty.  The mottled colouring makes it hard to tell how much of what we see is unwanted surface texture.  I'll dust some primer over it and post the results.

 

In the meantime, out of the box ...

 

(images suppressed because they are awful) 

 

 

The design is not bad.  All the brake and underframe detail is done for you, and having a floor but no roof is to be preferred to the other supplier's way of it. 

 

(images suppressed because they are awful)

 

That said, as has been pointed out, the treatment of the panelling is (i) quite inaccurate for the GER prototype and (ii) unprototypical/prototype illiterate in places.

 

(images suppressed because they are awful)

 

It will take quite a bit of work to get right.  My impression of the quality of the print is such that I suspect that a satisfactory model is unlikely and that the work required to correct the designer's mistakes would not be worthwhile.  

 

 

 

 

That is truly awful James.  That PA12 material seems to be worse than the old WSF material Shapeways was using before.  The errors in construction are also now blindingly obvious and I doubt very much if anything could be done about them.  I did used to buy locomotive fittings in WSF from Shapeways back when I was still doing railway modelling but they were for 16mm scale so the surface finish was a minor concern.

The only thing that might be done with that brake coach is to paint it tar black and set it down as a grounded coach in some far background corner of your layout.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Compound2632]

"Not of merchantable quality"?

[runs as required]

I always come to this thread just past the top of the D curve (though I always see it as a Pen-y-ghent curve).

 

About models: there must be a lot of us who underwent a very "techinische" style education in the environmental professions.

That is designing by making models, sessional exams were assessed by the progression through very quick models that develop the elegance of the artefact (eg a bridge) through model development.

Working in Africa, I found  a culture where only when a project had been designed was a presentation model commissioned at colossal expense from some foreign based model makers then flown in to convince the politicos and bankers.

 

I found it easy to raise the enthusiasm of African students by saying I want you make first and draw second (on computer these days) . "I will give a prize for the best model made out of garbage."

 

 

 

[Guy Rixon]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

Oh dear.

 

Next time I'll just set fire to a £50 note.  Quicker and less hassle.

 

The "Gray [sic] PA12" material is quite nasty.  The mottled colouring makes it hard to tell how much of what we see is unwanted surface texture.  I'll dust some primer over it and post the results.

 

In the meantime, out of the box ...

 

 

The design is not bad.  All the brake and underframe detail is done for you, and having a floor but no roof is to be preferred to the other supplier's way of it. 

 

 

That said, as has been pointed out, the treatment of the panelling is (i) quite inaccurate for the GER prototype and (ii) unprototypical/prototype illiterate in places.

 

 

It will take quite a bit of work to get right.  My impression of the quality of the print is such that I suspect that a satisfactory model is unlikely and that the work required to correct the designer's mistakes would not be worthwhile.  

 

 

 

 

That's a pity. It seems that the minimum feature size is a little better than WSF, and the dimensional stability may be better, but the finish is FU by default and probably BAR. Have you tried sanding it? Bet it fights back; I have an abortive PBV in nylon from another source and it's ghastly stuff to sand.

 

You could try bouncing it back to SW as a reject, since it's clearly unfit for purpose and the print does not reproduce the quality implied by the render on the product page. They've been quite good about that in the past.

 

FWIW, I now consider that SW have no material capable of printing reliably a pre-assembled coach in this manner. WSF is filth, PA12 has now failed and the patterning of vertical side in most SFDP prints is slightly too deep to deal with easily. The only way to get get results seems to be to print it as a flat-packed kit, as in the Trice coach-kits for the GNR, and that is more expensive.

 

EDIT: I haven't tried SW's "Accura" range of SLA acrylates. These are more like the SFDP, with lower resolution but possibly better surface smoothness. Also, more money.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Guy Rixon

[brianusa]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Are you asking whether we like the colour (I don't, not with that lining anyway), or whether it is an accurate rendition of the real thing (a colour about which there is considerable debate, but I thought it was more saturated than that)?

 

 

The only true colour is the original blue!  I've never liked these ever since the valences were trimmed leaving all the gubbins to make it go exposed.  These were meant to be 'streamliners' to be modern and go fast, silently moving along the line, not to look like all the other old engines.

     Brian.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, brianusa said:

These were meant to be 'streamliners' to be modern and go fast, silently moving along the line, not to look like all the other old engines.

 

Nah, for that, you want this:

 

 

With no visible reciprocating parts, observers described them as gliding along without apparent effort. 

[jcredfer]

15 minutes ago, brianusa said:

 

The only true colour is the original blue!  I've never liked these ever since the valences were trimmed leaving all the gubbins to make it go exposed.  These were meant to be 'streamliners' to be modern and go fast, silently moving along the line, not to look like all the other old engines.

     Brian.

 

Silent?????

 

Not what my daughter experienced from Sir Nigel Gresley, a couple of years back.

 

Julian

[brianusa]

51 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

Silent?????

 

Not what my daughter experienced from Sir Nigel Gresley, a couple of years back.

 

Julian

 

Bearing in mind that I am of those who think all locos should be green with a lot of brass trim, then perhaps not so but thats what the public perception and that of the LNER might have been!

     Brian.

[ChrisN]

I read an article somewhere of someone who worked on the railways in BR days and said that the A4s clanked along until they started using the GWR aligning methods using light and then they went silently 'like ghosts'.  (citation needed)

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Nah, for that, you want this:

 

 

With no visible reciprocating parts, observers described them as gliding along without apparent effort. 

 

Beautiful in their own right - almost as nice as Mr Deans!

    Brian.

[Hroth]

15 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I read an article somewhere of someone who worked on the railways in BR days and said that the A4s clanked along until they started using the GWR aligning methods using light and then they went silently 'like ghosts'.  (citation needed)

 

I "believe" that the clanking anecdote was attributed to the period in the mid-1920s when exchange trials between the LNER and GWR revealed the optical alignment of  the locomotive chassis and finer tolerances of GWR engineering, which meant that the Castles performed like the legendary sewing machine whilst in comparison the A1s were relatively sloppy and noisy.  Gresley then started using similar optical alignment systems and mechanical tolerances to bring the standard of the LNER front line locomotives up to scratch.

 

Another problem was that Gresley used Nickel Steel for the connecting rods, which used to resonate and add to the noise...

 

Clanking in BR days would be due to poor maintenance.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Hroth
clarification of sorts

[monkeysarefun]

11 hours ago, Annie said:

Oh dear.

 

Next time I'll just set fire to a £50 note.  Quicker and less hassle.

 

The "Gray [sic] PA12" material is quite nasty.  The mottled colouring makes it hard to tell how much of what we see is unwanted surface texture.  I'll dust some primer over it and post the results.

 

In the meantime, out of the box ...

 

 

 

50 pounds!? 5 of those and you could buy one of the many current SLA resin printers, even less if you keep an eye out., I got my 2nd printer in an ebay flash sale,  it cost the equivalent of 159 pounds UK brand new.

 

Guess I didnt need it really  which is proved because its still to be unboxed 2 months later -   but the price was too good!

 

[Donw]

14 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Many years ago, the late Don Boreham (long-standing Secretary of The Model Railway Club) wrote in his book "Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling" that "thick ugly flanges are about as attractive on a train as thick ugly ankles on a woman".

 

I spent a long luch hour at the MRJ Central hall show  Don was next in the queue with a friend he kept us entertained while the queue slowly moved round and throughout lunch he was a clever witty man great company and I did like his claim to have married THE  Elizabeth Taylor twice. 

 

Don

[St Enodoc]

22 minutes ago, Donw said:

I did like his claim to have married THE  Elizabeth Taylor twice.

I know the story behind that but for the benefit of those who don't would you like to share it?

[robmcg]

15 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I am not an engineer, in any way, but I find it is mistakes that proceed from ignorance of prototype construction that upset me most.  I had an early, salutary, lesson when I acquired a pair of second-hand open wagons, failing to notice that my predecessor in title had 'laid' the floor with the planks running the wrong way!

 

From that moment, I've tried to be more aware.  Thus, the thing that upsets me most about the Hornby Terrier is the misunderstanding of the side tanks and the buffers construction.  From the side, the hint that the outer face of the tanks is cladding (apart from the prominent fixing bolts) is that it overlaps the cab side sheet slightly.  This is faithfully reproduced by Hornby, but the designer evidently did not know why the overlap was there, and failed to see that the cladding must overlap the top of the tank, too.  Similarly, it was evidently not understood that the thicker part of the buffer base is part of the wooden headstock, thus needs to be in line with it.

 

This sort of thing has a long heritage.  Look at the impossible "Hull & Barnsley" Hornby van body. 

 

I think it comes down to this; once I become aware of some aspect of prototype construction, certain inaccuracies also become impossibilities and the model becomes (in terms I can best understand things) ungrammatical.  So, it bugs me in ways it would not bother others.  For me, Hornby's treatment of the Terrier tanks is a solecism; it's the modelling equivalent of a split infinitive.  

 

Other inaccuracies tend to bother me less.  I think if it were not for the two issues I've mentioned and the extraneous wash-out plugs, and, perhaps, the tool box being too short, I'd have lived with the Hornby Terrier, indeed, be quite happy with it.  It's a good model, and its main problem is the existence of a rival. 

 

 

Thankyou indeed for that explanation Edwardian, it adds depth to my understanding of your model-making and in a broader sense the various ways we enjoy life.

 

Of course all carriages look the same to me. 

 

BR steam engines on the other hand errors 'once seen cannot be unseen'.

 

I love the Heljan GWR Churchward 4700 class and recall Stationmaster's assessment of it, and much of it came down to such things as 'doesn't look quite right', but unlike him I have never seen the real thing and simply DO like the look of it.

 

Now if it was an NZR Ka class 4-8-4 I would undoubtedly have a different view.  Being close to or on such engines since I was a child.

 

I add pictures of each example of model, the 47xx in BR black 00, the Ka in 1:64 S scale Korean brass made, not because they add anything to the issue of modelling ethics and accuracy, but because I enjoy making pictures.

 

 

and below, that's me in 1965 aged 14yrs...

 

 

sunny autumnal day here, lovely!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Actually, Like this one more...

 

I am sure, Edwardian, that the UKP50 coach will look fine in the right lighting...   perhaps a candle or two, or a flickering oil lamp?

 

 

Enough!  ...I hear you cry.  ....

 

 

Whaddaya expect from a man with a pole driven through his skull?

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by robmcg
arrant nonsense, whigs and tories, and the rise of nazism