Castle Aching

[phil_sutters]

Now, can I ask militarymodellers a question? How do you chaps "do" flags?

 

 

(Googling 'model flag' simply gets pictures of various tanned torsos, M & F, draped in ..... er ..... flags)

 

K

When I was painting wargames figures they were mostly 25 or latterly 28mm and were that much easier to paint than 20mm figures. I used to use drinks can metal for the standard and piano wire for the staffs. The flags were shaped, primed and then hand painted in enamels. I am sure that since the mass use of computers and the arrival of the internet no-one goes down that route still.

For a time I painted for one of the wargames world's leading painters, Bill Brewer. This set is one that we painted for an American customer, to sit on his desk. I tended to get the fiddly jobs as I was doing it mainly as a hobby. Bill did the repetitive regiments which he could turn around quicker. While they may look out of proportion, medieval standards and banners were big, as they were the rallying point of a commander's company or battle group.

They were still quite large in Napoleonic times.

Edited February 4, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Edwardian]

When I was painting wargames figures they were mostly 25 or latterly 28mm and were that much easier to paint than 20mm figures. I used to use drinks can metal for the standard and piano wire for the staffs. The flags were primed and then hand painted in enamels. I am sure that since the mass use of computers and the arrival of the internet no-one goes down that route still.

For a time I painted for one of the wargames world leading painters, Bill Brewer. This set is one that we painted for an American customer, to sit on his desk. I tended to get the fiddly jobs as I was doing it mainly as a hobby. Bill did the repetitive regiments which he could turn around quicker. While they may look out of proportion, medieval standards and banners were big, as they were the rallying point of a commander's company or battle group.

Set of 30 mounted knights with standards.jpg

They were still quite large in Napoleonic times.

44th Essex Regt 1815 Front Rank figurines 4net.jpg

 

I am in awe, Phil

 

Thanks for sharing those exquisite images.

[phil_sutters]

I am in awe, Phil

 

Thanks for sharing those exquisite images.

You are too kind!

This is an interesting site as it illustrates the make up of a fairly typical cavalry standard and its various forms - Sovereign's standard and squadron or troop colours. http://www.paoyeomanry.co.uk/LYSquadronStandards.htm  If one plays around with the facing colours and regimental symbols one can work up a reasonable representation of a heavy cavalry standard of the period, if one can't find the real thing. Those were often to be found in local churches, in past times, more recently in regimental museums.. The rounded forked guidon shape was used by light cavalry - hussars, light dragoon and lancers.

Edited February 4, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Nearholmer]

That is serious flag painting!

 

I shall definitely be taking an easier route.

 

K

[HeavyDuty]

Speaking as a colonial, this is an interesting and educational thread - come for the Edwardian Railways, stay for the lesson in Yeomanry.

[ChrisN]

Interesting.

 

I'd like to have a go at some Napoleonic war-gaming.

 

My problem is that it is the look of the thing that interests me most and I reckon that if you want a base full of figures to give the impression of a battalion, you need around 30 of them, but a 1:20 figure ratio is very figure heavy. 

 

Thanks to HaT and some others (really like the Strelets marching Highlanders, an improvement on their past efforts and perfect for Waterloo), it is affordable, but finding the time to paint them ....

 

We had a limit on the numbers as it was one figure, one man.  We could have gone in for the card system of one set is a platoon and keep changing the number of men on the card but did not.  Even so it took a long time and one of my jobs was to build bases as a game took a long time.

 

My son is good though.  He knows how to play games, all sorts of games which is more important than real battle tactics, although they help.

[Edwardian]

Speaking as a colonial, this is an interesting and educational thread - come for the Edwardian Railways, stay for the lesson in Yeomanry.

 

Well I hope you continue to enjoy.

 

The Yeomanry were, in the main, raised in the 1790s as a mounted force to defend us from invasion by Revolutionary France.  The full title was the "Gentlemen and Yeomen of such and such County", as the idea was that recruits provided their own horses.  Gentlemen supplied their own horses, of course, and also supplied their tenants and horses for them.  Yeomen were substantial farmers who owned their land, unlike tenant farmers, and could supply their own mounts, though there were not regarded as gentlefolk. The principal landowners were expected to officer the corps, and I have mentioned that training frequently took place in the parks of the local gentry.

 

All this lent a somewhat feudal character to the Yeomanry, and, as late as the 1930s, tenants on the Eaton Hall estate were said to have service in the Cheshire Yeomanry as a condition of their tenancies, so went off to WW2 (on horses) as a feudal levy!  

 

In the Nineteenth Century the Yeomanry, led as they were by the Great and the Good of each county, were right at the centre of county society. The Norfolk Yeomanry, a late-formed regiment, had the added distinction of acting as a sort of Royal household corps for Sandringham.  Sandringham had been given to the then Prince of Wales in the 1860s, so, as Edward VII, this, of all the Royal residences, was a particular favourite, so would have seen a lot of activity in the Edwardian period.

 

Not a lot of people realise that the Yeomanry has always fed men into the regular army.  I read somewhere that regular cavalry units at Waterloo were brought up to strength by a significant infusion of Yeoman.

 

In the Nineteenth Century, until there were civil police forces capable of maintaining order, the Yeomary's role was as "aid to the civil power".  The chance to serve overseas came when a bunch of farmers in South Africa ran rings around our regular forces.  If only, it was thought, we had our own corps of born riders and hunters who could fight in such an irregular fashion.  Then they remembered the Yeomanry and the Imperial Yeomanry was formed, each of the county Yeomanries sending contingents to join.  Thereafter, the Yeomanry as a whole served in both World Wars.  They served in the Great War both as cavalry and dismounted as infantry.  In the Second World War, some served on horseback still.  Others in armoured cars or tanks and yet others as artillery.

 

Nowadays we do not expect a call-up for a general war, so the Yeomanry, and the rest of the Territorial Army has reverted to the role of feeding troops into the line to bolster regular formations, rather than deploying as units.  TA soldiers are allowed to serve short engagements with the regular army, and, again, have proved vital; many regular units simply could not bring themselves up to strength for operational tours without Territorials.

 

First and foremost, the Yeomanry are civilians.  I never once felt that I was really a soldier. I was a civilian, doing my bit, with a Yeomanry spirit quite distinct from that of the regular army, and with a case of bubbly in my turret bin, but, I knew that plenty like me had gone off to war and fought it well with just that spirit.  

Edited February 4, 2017 by Edwardian

[DonB]

Not quite in keeping with the era being discussed, but perhaps of interest. A friend used to be a serious Aircraft Modeller, and would use a small fan, a 80mm square x 10mm thick, to rotate the propellers of his models in his dioramas. 

Branded "Cooler Master" made in China (where else?) and intended for computer and lap-top cooling. 12V , 0.17A power requirement.

 

He mounted the fan in a building with opening doors which could be moved to direct the air flow.

Don't know if very flimsy paper flags /pennants / standards could be made to flutter in the breeze from one of these "silent" fans.

 

A fan of identical appearance to one that he gave to me,except that mine has 12 blades compared to the 6 blades shown at....  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/291841330778?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=13585920426&rlsatarget=pla-142413598386&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=9046378&device=c&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0

 

Mine is in a box marked "might come in useful" !

[phil_sutters]

Not quite in keeping with the era being discussed, but perhaps of interest. A friend used to be a serious Aircraft Modeller, and would use a small fan, a 80mm square x 10mm thick, to rotate the propellers of his models in his dioramas. 

Branded "Cooler Master" made in China (where else?) and intended for computer and lap-top cooling. 12V , 0.17A power requirement.

 

He mounted the fan in a building with opening doors which could be moved to direct the air flow.

Don't know if very flimsy paper flags /pennants / standards could be made to flutter in the breeze from one of these "silent" fans.

 

A fan of identical appearance to one that he gave to me,except that mine has 12 blades compared to the 6 blades shown at....  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/291841330778?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=13585920426&rlsatarget=pla-142413598386&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=9046378&device=c&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0

 

Mine is in a box marked "might come in useful" !

I don't think constant movement would do the flags any good, even if you could print on both sides of flimsy enough paper. Coloured printing ink from a home printer might well stiffen the paper and not give the flexibility your scheme would need. Military standards are actually quite heavy and don't do a lot of fluttering. Just look at this one at Trooping the Colour - 7mins in

  Edited February 5, 2017 by phil_sutters

[phil_sutters]

For no other reason than you have Norfolk affiliations - today a bought a delightful book of water-colours of Norfolk & Suffolk houses, shops and street scenes, called Charles Debenham's East Anglia. It was in a closing down sale in a little antiques market in Rottingdean. The paintings are charming and the descriptions and anecdotes entertaining. If you see one at a sensible price I commend it to you - unless of course you are already familiar with Mr.Debenham and his work.

Edited February 6, 2017 by phil_sutters

[DonB]

Listings in Bookfinder (no Connection!) for "Charles Debenham's East Anglia."

 

Snaylerbooks
via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923
Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000
112 pages. Used - Very Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, Orders shipped daily from the UK. Professional seller.

$8.92

9. Awesome Books 001
via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923
Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000
112 pages. Used - Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, SUPER FAST SHIPPING, DISPATCHED SAME DAY FROM UK WAREHOUSE. NO NEED TO WAIT FOR BOOKS FROM USA. GREAT BOOK IN GOOD OR BETTER CONDITION. MORE GREAT BARGAINS IN OUR ZSHOP.

$8.92

10. Awesome Books 001
via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923
Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000
112 pages. Used - Very Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, This book is in very good condition and will be shipped within 24 hours of ordering. The cover may have some limited signs of wear but the pages are clean, intact and the spine remains undamaged. This book has clearly been well maintained and looked after thus far. Money back guarantee if you are not satisfied. See more of our deals.

$8.92

11. S N Books Ltd
via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923
Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000
Sansom & Co. Hardcover. 1900178923 . Very Good.

$9.

 

No idea why the prices are all in US$ .

[Edwardian]

For no other reason than you have Norfolk affiliations - today a bought a delightful book of water-colours of Norfolk & Suffolk houses, shops and street scenes, called Charles Debenham's East Anglia. It was in a closing down sale in a little antiques market in Rottingdean. The paintings are charming and the descriptions and anecdotes entertaining. If you see one at a sensible price I commend it to you - unless of course you are already familiar with Mr.Debenham and his work.

 

Listings in Bookfinder (no Connection!) for "Charles Debenham's East Anglia."

 

Snaylerbooks

via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923

Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000

112 pages. Used - Very Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, Orders shipped daily from the UK. Professional seller.

$8.92

9. Awesome Books 001

via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923

Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000

112 pages. Used - Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, SUPER FAST SHIPPING, DISPATCHED SAME DAY FROM UK WAREHOUSE. NO NEED TO WAIT FOR BOOKS FROM USA. GREAT BOOK IN GOOD OR BETTER CONDITION. MORE GREAT BARGAINS IN OUR ZSHOP.

$8.92

10. Awesome Books 001

via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923

Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000

112 pages. Used - Very Good, Usually dispatched within 1-2 business days, This book is in very good condition and will be shipped within 24 hours of ordering. The cover may have some limited signs of wear but the pages are clean, intact and the spine remains undamaged. This book has clearly been well maintained and looked after thus far. Money back guarantee if you are not satisfied. See more of our deals.

$8.92

11. S N Books Ltd

via

United Kingdom Hardcover, ISBN 1900178923

Publisher: Sansom & Co, 2000

Sansom & Co. Hardcover. 1900178923 . Very Good.

$9.

 

No idea why the prices are all in US$ .

 

£2.80, postage free.  Ordered.

 

Thanks to you both.

[Edwardian]

Working, slowly, back to railways ...

 

You may recall my comment that the Yeomanry was traditionally used to bring the regular army up to strength.  I recently read a comment that both the Yeomanry and the Militia had to be deployed to fill the shortfall at the time of the Crimean War (in those days it was felt that giving Russia a free-hand to duff-up its weaker neighbours was bad for long-term peace and stability).

 

The War Office realised that we simply did not have enough troops and that a further such deployment would leave Britain inadequately garrisoned. In 1859 there were fears of a war with, and invasion by, France. France was the bogeyman for sometime thereafter. I think The Battle of Dorking, 1870ish if I recall, is the first example of "invasion literature" that identifies the threat as Germanic.   

 

Anyway, something had to be done.  One thing that was done was the building of the so-called Palmerston Forts along the South Coast.  From old maps will be seen evidence of narrow gauge tracks used in the construction.  Some forts had internal railway systems, but I think they were just push-along affairs to get trucks of shells from the magazines to the casements. Still ....

 

The other thing that was done was to use old Napoleonic legislation to raise a Rifle Volunteer Corps.  Again these were civilians and part-timers.  They featured in most coastal counties so far as I know.  Generally they were clad in grey.  I believe they, like the Yeomanry, were subsumed into the newly created Territorial Army in 1908.  

 

I gather from a GERS Journal article, that the Eastern Counties-Great Eastern Railway had 12 officers receive commissions from the Lord Lieutenant of Essex in the 8th Essex Rifle Volunteers in 1860. The 12 included William Birt, later Sir William Birt, General Manager of the GER.  It was unusual for a General Manager of a railway company to be knighted, and the GERS article ascribes this to his frequent contact with Royalty, very often accompanying members of the Royal Family on trips to Wolferton as part of his duties.

 

I have no picture of the Essex Volunteers.  The photograph below shows the sort of appearance that typified Volunteer Rifle units in their early years (1860s), though in this case the gentlemen are from Cumberland.  The print show the Middlesex Volunteers c.1890.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Edwardian

[runs as required]

The Battle of Dorking, 1870ish if I recall, is the first example of "invasion literature" that identifies the threat as Germanic. 

 

There was the 1898 Fashoda Incident eyeball to eyeball with the French just before your WNR 'epoch'

 

Nearer home in our 'Land of the Prince Bishops', the B of D was stripped of his Prince's crown and his Duham castle because he'd completely forgotten his strategic  role not only in 1715 but again in 1745 !

They'd become far more interested in living off the coal revenues from church lands.  The Bish had to just make do with Auckland Castle until a couple of years ago; Durham Castle got used for the first new 'red brick' university (for training vicars - a proposal conceived in the very room I am typing this)

dh

[Edwardian]

Naturally thoughts turned to Rifle Volunteers in Norfolk.  As a coastal county it was sure to have had some.

 

This bears some further research, but, so far, I have found a reference to Dereham (http://www.derehamhistory.com/norfolk-militia.html), which leads ultimately to a reference to Royal ceremonial duties at the railway station:

 

In June 1859 a public meeting was held in the Corn Hall, Dereham, for the formation of a Dereham Rifle Volunteer Corps. The Reverend Armstrong made a short speech urging people to join. About thirty men did, the eldest an elderly fat banker of 70 years, and the youngest a seventeen year old.  They were kitted out in a grey uniform. The Corps met regularly to drill and exercise.

 

The Dereham contingent continued to work hard and helped to put on a Subscription Concert the following November. It was recorded that the hall was full and the Dereham Rifles’ fife and drum band was a great attraction. In September they attended a review of 2,000 volunteers at Holkham Hall, hosted by Lord Leicester, who dined the whole force and 500 private guests too.

 

About this time competition was starting between the Corps of Dereham and Wymondham and in April 1862 a Rifle Match was staged at Swanton, which Dereham lost. As the day was windy it was said it was chancy shooting anyway! There was a Grand Entertainment given to the volunteers at Letton Hall, where a vast crowd assembled. 150 volunteers sat down to a dinner under a tent and speeches were given. Social events were held to raise money for needy volunteers.

 

It was a red letter day when the Dereham Volunteers marched with the Reverend Armstrong to the railway station to form a Guard of Honour for the Prince and Princess of Wales, and the Queen of Denmark who were en route to Costessey Hall. 

[runs as required]

Dereham is a place I shall ever associate with that quintessentially Edwardian craft of fretwork.                      

At age 9 0r 10, I won a Hobbies competition with a freelance fretwork model of our local Four Oaks LNW signal box made for my Trix Twin train set.

dh

[Compound2632]

 

 It was unusual for a General Manager of a railway company to be knighted,

 

Four spring to mind immediately:

Sir James Allport (Midland Railway)

Sir Guy Granet (Midland Railway)

Sir Sam Fay (Great Central)

Sir Felix Pole (Great Western)

I'd thought the latter three might have been knighted for war work - as was quite common - but Granet was knighted in 1911, Fay at the opening of Immingham Dock in 1912 and Pole (1924) doesn't appear to have been on any wartime committee.

Any more?

Edited February 7, 2017 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Sir Daniel, fancy missing him out. Then there's Sir Henry Thornton, of course.

[DonB]

Could Sir Felix Pole have been involved /implicated  in the "cash for honours" scandal leading to the Act of Parliament outlawing "buying" Knighthoods etc in 1924 ?

for a very brief outline see :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honours_(Prevention_of_Abuses)_Act_1925

[Nearholmer]

Sir Herbert Walker

Sir Eustace Missenden

 

Which, I think means that all (two) of the GMs of the Southern were knighted, although technically there were five, because there was a period of nearly a year at the outset where the ex-GMs of the three main constituents ruled (actually 'squabbled politely') as a triumvirate, IIRC.

 

Kevin

 

Whoops - I suddenly remembered Gilbert Szlumper, GM for only two years. He was the short day between two knights, so my theory is all wrong!

Edited February 7, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Sir Daniel, fancy missing him out. Then there's Sir Henry Thornton, of course.

 

... of the Great Eastern, so mildly relevant to the thread (for once!). My reading of the brief biog on Wikipedia is that in this instance the knighthood was for war work.

 

Sir Daniel Gooch's baronetcy was for the transatlantic cable rather than railway work; also, although Gooch rescued the Great Western from bankruptcy (after his pleas for nationalisation had been turned down) this was as Chairman rather than General Manager, a post he never held - if it existed on the Great Western in the 1860s.

 

For the LNWR:

Sir George Findlay, author of the key textbook for the profession, knighted three years after his retirement in 1889;

Sir Frederick Harrison, knighted while in post;

Sir Frank Ree, ditto.

Sir Guy Calthrop, knighted for war work as Controller of Mines.

Of course the Premier Line as the oldest (as successor to the L&MR), most highly capitalised, Anglican-establishment and generally all-round biggest line, especially on the long-distance passenger side, had a certain degree of national prestige to which more provincial companies with their Nonconformist/Quaker roots struggled to aspire. Hence the Midland Grand Hotel - the Derby businessmen buying in a High-Church establishment architect.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Pollet of the GCR?

 

K

[Nearholmer]

Actually, it was Pollit.

 

Which reminds me of Sir Sam Fay

 

And, was Sir Gilbert Claughton a GM of the LNWR before he bacame a director? [edit: no, he wasn't.]

 

K

 

I see that Fay has already been played; apologies.

 

PS: I thought that the L&B was largely Quaker financed, and had a significant number of Quakers on the Board, and that this carried through into the LNWR, although Claughton, Chairman for many years, was the son if an Anglican Bishop.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

OK, I sit corrected, but, please feel free to take this up with Bill King, author of the piece in the Great Eastern Journal, volume 163, who wrote:

 

... he was well-known amongst the 'movers and shakers' of the day.  This, together with his relatively frequent meetings with various members of the Royal family when making trips to Sandringham, possibly marked him for a knighthood. He was one of the very few railway general managers to have been honoured in this way.  [emphasis added] 

 

Mind you, later in the article, Mr King refers the conferral of the knighthood as Mr Birt's "ennobling", which, I am sure, cannot be correct usage.

 

If anyone would like contact details for the editors, I will happily supply same! 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Sir Allen Sarle (LBSCR)

 

and

 

Sir William Forbes (also LBSCR)

 

(I know that close of play has been declared, but I think the top trumps of obscure railway managers is quite a good game)

 

K

Edited February 7, 2017 by Nearholmer